Interesting Rule Question

gary29428

Got a call from a friend last night who was playing a club foursomes matchplay fixture. On the 14th their opposition putted up to a few inches of the hole and my friend said "that's given", however the person walked up and tapped the ball in. My friend still had a 6foot putt to tie.

Two things here:
1) Did the opposition incure a rule breach by tapping the ball in after it was given.
2) Did the opposition incure a rule breach by effectively playing out of turn.

Another taught, if he had of missed the putt he had been given, is he then marked down for a 5 and not the conceded 4.

My taught is that if a putt is given in foursomes it effectively ends that teams participation in the hole and it doesn't matter what they do with the ball.

What's your taughts.

GreeBo

gary29428 wrote: »

Got a call from a friend last night who was playing a club foursomes matchplay fixture. On the 14th their opposition putted up to a few inches of the hole and my friend said "that's given", however the person walked up and tapped the ball in. My friend still had a 6foot putt to tie.

Two things here:
1) Did the opposition incure a rule breach by tapping the ball in after it was given.
2) Did the opposition incure a rule breach by effectively playing out of turn.

Another taught, if he had of missed the putt he had been given, is he then marked down for a 5 and not the conceded 4.

My taught is that if a putt is given in foursomes it effectively ends that teams participation in the hole and it doesn't matter what they do with the ball.

What's your taughts.

Thats it pretty much. Once its given its given and that score stands, unless it was given based on false information.
If someone plays out of turn in matchplay all you can do is get them to play again.

PhilipMarlowe

There is no penalty for holing out after the putt was conceded. Whether the putt was holed or missed is irrelevant because the concession stands anyway. Had it been a fourball and holing out could have helped their partner (showing a line?) then that would be a DQ alright.

BoardsMember

GreeBo wrote: »

Thats it pretty much. Once its given its given and that score stands, unless it was given based on false information.
If someone plays out of turn in matchplay all you can do is get them to play again.

That sounds right to me too.

Gophur

Looking at "DECISIONS" in RANDA.ORG

There is no penalty, unless, in taking such a putt, the player is actively helping his team-mate with an impending putt.

G1032

gary29428 wrote: »

Two things here:
1) Did the opposition incure a rule breach by tapping the ball in after it was given.
2) Did the opposition incure a rule breach by effectively playing out of turn.

Another taught, if he had of missed the putt he had been given, is he then marked down for a 5 and not the conceded 4.

Concession of a shot can neither be withdrawn or denied.

-Once the next shot is conceded the person who conceded it cannot then turn around and ask for that shot to be taken.

-The person who was the beneficary of the consession cannot say he doean't want the concession. He can, if he choses, play the next shot but whether that shot is holed or not is irrelavant.

If he had putted without the putt having been conceded then he would have putted out of turn and the opposition could have requested he replace his ball, mark it and take the putt again when it was his turn. There is no penalty peanlty for playing out of turn other than what I described above.

So the answers to your 3 queations are no, no and no!!

gary29428

Thanks for all the reply's lads, it's as I suspected and advised.

fullstop

Just curious on this, was your friend considering pulling the opponent up on this? That seems to be the reason for a lot of the rule threads on here...people trying to win on a technicality.

G1032

fullstop wrote: »

...people trying to win on a technicality.

What does this mean? Tyringh to win on a technicality?
If a rule has been broken and you know about it then you are obligated to enforce the rule. If you don't you are breaking rules yourself. Thats not trying to win on a technicality - it's playing within the rules of the game.

The only problem is that very few people actually do know and play within the rules.

conno16

this is the kind of thread that puts me off golf

i have no THOUGHTS to offer on the matter

BoardsMember

conno16 wrote: »

this is the kind of thread that puts me off golf

i have no THOUGHTS to offer on the matter

At the risk of using th elowest form of wit: good post

fullstop

ronaldochokes wrote: »

What does this mean? Tyringh to win on a technicality?
If a rule has been broken and you know about it then you are obligated to enforce the rule. If you don't you are breaking rules yourself. Thats not trying to win on a technicality - it's playing within the rules of the game.

The only problem is that very few people actually do know and play within the rules.

That's my point exactly. The amount of threads like this where people think and opponent is breaking a rule (not the OP in this case but his friend) when they are not is unreal. Often they'll say something to the opponent and wrongly accuse them of breaking a rule and it will sour the match completely. If you're not sure yourself, you're better off saying nothing.

BoardsMember

fullstop wrote: »

That's my point exactly. The amount of threads like this where people think and opponent is breaking a rule (not the OP in this case but his friend) when they are not is unreal. Often they'll say something to the opponent and wrongly accuse them of breaking a rule and it will sour the match completely. If you're not sure yourself, you're better off saying nothing.

It's a difficult one alright. I played two years ago with two friends of mine. I took a pracise swing under a tree, I happened to know a single leaf off the tree. I was told by them that I would have to take a penalty stroke, that I was deemed to have improved my lie (I think that is the rule). Anyhow, I had been going well, and then things kinda fell apart. My fault totally. But...it seems that the rule they were quoting had changed that year to allow for the precise situation I had experienced, untintentionally clipping a leaf, and not improving anything.

So even when you "know" a rule and do step in, you're not always right!

conno16

best bet is to just make the rules up as you along to your advantage
always have a few heavies back in the club car park tho to help get your point across later tho if necessary

G1032

fullstop wrote: »

That's my point exactly. The amount of threads like this where people think and opponent is breaking a rule (not the OP in this case but his friend) when they are not is unreal. Often they'll say something to the opponent and wrongly accuse them of breaking a rule and it will sour the match completely. If you're not sure yourself, you're better off saying nothing.

Ya, seems to be happening a lot alright.
The kind of rules questions being asked here on this forum are basic, class 101 rules. Like the one asked in the first post here. Everybody should know the answers to these. Basic everyday rules that the majority of people don't know the answer to. No wonder we are see 45+ points winning competitions every week.................

G1032

BoardsMember wrote: »

It's a difficult one alright. I played two years ago with two friends of mine. I took a pracise swing under a tree, I happened to know a single leaf off the tree. I was told by them that I would have to take a penalty stroke, that I was deemed to have improved my lie (I think that is the rule). Anyhow, I had been going well, and then things kinda fell apart. My fault totally. But...it seems that the rule they were quoting had changed that year to allow for the precise situation I had experienced, untintentionally clipping a leaf, and not improving anything.

So even when you "know" a rule and do step in, you're not always right!

But here they didn't "know" the rule and pulled you incorrectly........
You should have told them where to stick their incorrect ruling...........

fullstop

ronaldochokes wrote: »

Ya, seems to be happening a lot alright.
The kind of rules questions being asked here on this forum are basic, class 101 rules. Like the one asked in the first post here. Everybody should know the answers to these. Basic everyday rules that the majority of people don't know the answer to. No wonder we are see 45+ points winning competitions every week.................

Exactly, I saw somebody take a drop from GUR recently and he thought he was allowed go back as far as he liked in line with the flag! This person plays off 6 or 7 handicap.

G1032

fullstop wrote: »

Exactly, I saw somebody take a drop from GUR recently and he thought he was allowed go back as far as he liked in line with the flag! This person plays off 6 or 7 handicap.

Mind boggling.
Where do they come up with these versions of the rules. Not only are we competing against bandits every week we're also commpeting with these guys who make up their own rules to suit themselves.

BoardsMember

ronaldochokes wrote: »

But here they didn't "know" the rule and pulled you incorrectly........
You should have told them where to stick their incorrect ruling...........

That's why I put "know" in double quotes.
I didn't "know" that the rule had changed, I was aware of the older rule that would have penalised me.

Donalmit

Hi lads, I didnt know that this rule had changed. When did it change?

Mitch

BoardsMember

Just found this, it is on a US site so not sure the references etc are correct, but think it explains what I was paraphrasing:

13-2/22 Knocking Down Leaves with Practice Swing
Q: A player’s ball lies near a tree or bush. The player takes a practice swing near his ball and knocks down leaves in the area of his intended swing. Is this a breach of Rule 13-2?

(FYI: This is the rule that says you must not improve or allow to be improved the position or lie of the ball the area of your intended stance or swing, your line of play or the area in which you are to drop or place a ball by “moving , bending or breaking anything growing or fixed…”)

A: The answer depends on whether the area of the intended swing is improved. In some cases, the knocking down of a number of leaves would not improve the area of the intended swing as the player still has to swing through a number of remaining leaves when making his stroke. In such circumstances, there would be no breach of the Rules. In other cases, the knocking down of one leaf might improve the area of the intended swing, in which case there would be a breach of Rule 13-2.

garancafan

Coming back to the original question: Is it not the case that the player who putted out the conceded putt is now in breach of rule 7-2 (making a practice stroke)?

fullstop

garancafan wrote: »

Coming back to the original question: Is it not the case that the player who putted out the conceded putt is now in breach of rule 7-2 (making a practice stroke)?

Have you actually read rule 7-2

A player must not make a practice stroke during play of a hole.
Between the play of two holes a player must not make a practice stroke, except that he may practise putting or chipping on or near:
a. the putting green of the hole last played,
b. any practice putting green, or
c. the teeing ground of the next hole to be played in the round, provided a practice stroke is not made from a hazard and does not unduly delay play (Rule 6-7).
Strokes made in continuing the play of a hole, the result of which has been decided, are not practice strokes.

Pretty clear really.

garancafan

Surely if a player, whose putt has been conceded, proceeds to take the putt then since his involvement in the hole is finished, the putt can only be considered to be a practice stroke and is in breach of 7-2?

PhilipMarlowe

The putt was conceded so that player (and his partner in foursomes) were finished their play of the hole.. that hole was completed as far as they were concerned in terms of allowing them to practice. They don't have to wait for their opponents to be finished before practicing although it might be good manners.

garancafan

Disagree. As fullstop has quoted: " a player must not make a practice stroke during play of a hole"

PhilipMarlowe

Decision 7 -2/1

Q. When is play of a hole completed by a player so that he may practice as permitted in Rule 7-2?

A. Match play: Single When he has holed out, his next stroke has been conceded, or the hole has been conceded by either player.
Four-ball When both he and his partner have holed out, their next strokes have been conceded or either side has conceded the hole.
Stroke play: Individual When he has holed out.
Four-ball When both he and his partner have holed out or picked up.
Bogey, Par and Stableford
When he has holed out or picked up.

fullstop

garancafan wrote: »

Surely if a player, whose putt has been conceded, proceeds to take the putt then since his involvement in the hole is finished, the putt can only be considered to be a practice stroke and is in breach of 7-2?

Ok, I thought my last post was clear but obviously it wasn't. You are allowed practise putting or chipping on or near the putting green of the hole last played.

fullstop

garancafan wrote: »

Disagree. As fullstop has quoted: " a player must not make a practice stroke during play of a hole"

He was finished the hole. How can you not see that

Paulusmaximus

The rules questions on here always make me laugh... rules for the most part are common sense...

The original post reminds me I'd an incident in my first ever senior cup match, was 2 down after 12 in forrest little, i win the next two holes to go all flat, playing the par 5... i'm in to 8 feet for birdie and i've just concede his putt for bogey.

Now usually i'd have thought 2 putts from 8 feet would be conceded, but it wasn't so as Philip walton said, if you have 2 take 2, so i roll it up to beside the cup, as the ball is coming to a stop, my opponent says "thats ok"...as he's saying this a gust of wind comes up and blows the ball to 2 feet.. he then pipes up that its not conceded and that he hadn't conceded it... myself and my caddy say he'd said "it's ok"...which he retorted to with "it's ok could mean anything"...

without wanting to cause a huge fuss i say feck that, take the putt, hole it and win on 17... needless to say atmosphere was very tense over the last couple of holes...

GreeBo

Paulusmaximus wrote: »

The rules questions on here always make me laugh... rules for the most part are common sense...

The original post reminds me I'd an incident in my first ever senior cup match, was 2 down after 12 in forrest little, i win the next two holes to go all flat, playing the par 5... i'm in to 8 feet for birdie and i've just concede his putt for bogey.

Now usually i'd have thought 2 putts from 8 feet would be conceded, but it wasn't so as Philip walton said, if you have 2 take 2, so i roll it up to beside the cup, as the ball is coming to a stop, my opponent says "thats ok"...as he's saying this a gust of wind comes up and blows the ball to 2 feet.. he then pipes up that its not conceded and that he hadn't conceded it... myself and my caddy say he'd said "it's ok"...which he retorted to with "it's ok could mean anything"...

without wanting to cause a huge fuss i say feck that, take the putt, hole it and win on 17... needless to say atmosphere was very tense over the last couple of holes...

2-4. Concession of Next Stroke, Hole or Match
A player may concede his opponent’s next stroke at any time
provided the opponent’s ball is at rest.

Can open, worms everywhere!

thelongfellow

Paulusmaximus wrote: »

The rules questions on here always make me laugh... rules for the most part are common sense...

The original post reminds me I'd an incident in my first ever senior cup match, was 2 down after 12 in forrest little, i win the next two holes to go all flat, playing the par 5... i'm in to 8 feet for birdie and i've just concede his putt for bogey.

Now usually i'd have thought 2 putts from 8 feet would be conceded, but it wasn't so as Philip walton said, if you have 2 take 2, so i roll it up to beside the cup, as the ball is coming to a stop, my opponent says "thats ok"...as he's saying this a gust of wind comes up and blows the ball to 2 feet.. he then pipes up that its not conceded and that he hadn't conceded it... myself and my caddy say he'd said "it's ok"...which he retorted to with "it's ok could mean anything"...

without wanting to cause a huge fuss i say feck that, take the putt, hole it and win on 17... needless to say atmosphere was very tense over the last couple of holes...

Thats just the kind of problem you encounter when playing against dicks. It could mean anything-but we all know what it means. Still, he would claim he was just passing comment on your shot saying it was an 'ok' one. Should there be a need to say "I concede that putt" so that there is no confusion anymore? No. A bit of common sense and decency from people like your opponent wouldn't go astray.

garancafan

fullstop wrote: »

He was finished the hole. How can you not see that

He was finished but "play of a hole" was still taking place.

Perhaps we need a decision on decision 7-2/1?

GreeBo

garancafan wrote: »

He was finished but "play of a hole" was still taking place.

Perhaps we need a decision on decision 7-2/1?

His score for the hole had been recorded. Nothing else he could do would affect his score...

Again, read Lickys post
Q. When is play of a hole completed by a player so that he may practice as permitted in Rule 7-2?

A. Match play: Single When he has holed out, his next stroke has been conceded

Its pretty clearcut

Russman

garancafan wrote: »

He was finished but "play of a hole" was still taking place.

I think this is getting into the realms of silliness TBH.

By the same token, presumably play was still taking place all over the course.

In matchplay when "he" is finished the hole, play of the hole is completed as far as he is concerned and he can practise his putting.

We'll need lawyers with us on the course to interpret the wording of rules soon

fullstop

garancafan wrote: »

He was finished but "play of a hole" was still taking place.

Perhaps we need a decision on decision 7-2/1?

I hope you're on a wind-up here! He was finished the hole. If him and his opponent had both finished, are practice putting and the group behind them had just played from the tee "play of a hole" was taking place. Jesus this is getting silly at this stage.

GreeBo

GreeBo wrote: »

Can open, worms everywhere!

Just thinking, what happens if after someone concedes a putt your ball drops into the hole...(within the allotted time)
Does that undo the conceding?
I think it might since "technically" the ball was not at rest...but who knows.

garancafan

fullstop wrote: »

I hope you're on a wind-up here! He was finished the hole. If him and his opponent had both finished, are practice putting and the group behind them had just played from the tee "play of a hole" was taking place. Jesus this is getting silly at this stage.

No wind-up. If I have understood the position his opponent still had a 6 footer to tie.

fullstop

garancafan wrote: »

No wind-up. If I have understood the position his opponent still had a 6 footer to tie.

So? The worst his opponent could do anyway is ask him to replay the shot and as it's given that's not an issue. Jeez i'd love to play someone like you in a match :rolleyes:

garancafan

fullstop wrote: »

So? The worst his opponent could do anyway is ask him to replay the shot

The penalty for breach of rule 7-2 in matchplay is loss of hole.

PhilipMarlowe

Please. As far as that player (and his partner) were concerned their play of that hole was finished. The decision doesn't state that the hole has to be decided before you can practice (unless it's a fourball). In Foursomes, the use of the word "player" is assumed to include your partner when the context allows.
So the player could tap in (not out of turn because their play of the hole was over), his partner could tap in, they could both practice putting or chipping to their hearts content though to do so while their opponents were trying to concentrate wouldn't be good form. Their next stroke was conceded.. their job was done.
Their opponents still had a putt, they were still playing the hole, they couldn't practice.

G1032

garancafan wrote: »

He was finished but "play of a hole" was still taking place.

Perhaps we need a decision on decision 7-2/1?

garancafan wrote: »

No wind-up. If I have understood the position his opponent still had a 6 footer to tie.

garancafan wrote: »

The penalty for breach of rule 7-2 in matchplay is loss of hole.

What exactly about this ruling do you find so hard to understand?
It's getting a bit boring now. Read the rule again. Nothing in it is open to interpretation. There are no if, buts or ands about it.

Hissing Sid

ronaldochokes wrote: »

What exactly about this ruling do you find so hard to understand?
It's getting a bit boring now. Read the rule again. Nothing in it is open to interpretation. There are no if, buts or ands about it.

So, what you are saying is that because he has finished the hole, he can practise his putting while his opponent is putting for a half. He can, in effect, if good enough, practise his putt to hit his opponents ball and redirect it away from the hole, BOLLOCKS.
The hole is not finished until all competing players have completed it.

thelongfellow

Hissing Sid wrote: »

So, what you are saying is that because he has finished the hole, he can practise his putting while his opponent is putting for a half. He can, in effect, if good enough, practise his putt to hit his opponents ball and redirect it away from the hole, BOLLOCKS.
The hole is not finished until all competing players have completed it.

Rule 7-2 permits a player between the play of two holes to practise putting or chipping on or near the putting green of the hole last played, any practice putting green or the teeing ground of the next hole to be played in the round, provided such practice stroke is not played from a hazard and does not unduly delay play (Rule 6-7).

When your finished the hole your finished the hole-doesn't matter whether your partners are still playing it or not. As for practice putting and hitting another persons ball-you serious?

Hissing Sid

thelongfellow wrote: »

Rule 7-2 permits a player between the play of two holes to practise putting or chipping on or near the putting green of the hole last played, any practice putting green or the teeing ground of the next hole to be played in the round, provided such practice stroke is not played from a hazard and does not unduly delay play (Rule 6-7).

When your finished the hole your finished the hole-doesn't matter whether your partners are still playing it or not. As for practice putting and hitting another persons ball-you serious?

If you're practising putting, what are you aiming at? The hole. If someone is playing, putting out, where are they aiming? Work it out!

thelongfellow

Hissing Sid wrote: »

If you're practising putting, what are you aiming at? The hole. If someone is playing, putting out, where are they aiming? Work it out!

Eh what kind of d!ck would you be if you actually practiced your putting to the actual hole while others were still playing the hole. Jeez...

PhilipMarlowe

Ok, thread locked because I like a good discussion on the rules as much as the next golf nerd but this is gone beyond a joke at this stage.