Why is Marita Koch's 400m WR still allowed to stand?

Pisco Sour

I'm not breaking any forum charter as it is well documented and proven that the GDR athletes cheated in the 1980's through a systematic doping regime.

After watching this video I feel sick as a follower of the sport:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OD4OUTXvtRU

This record will never ever be beaten by a clean athlete. She is in lane 2 and eats up the stagger on the girl in lane 5 within about 100 metres. How on earth can the IAAF allow this record to stand? It is hugely insulting to the likes of Sanya Richards etc who will never get close to this and have the glory and prestige of breaking a World Record. Is the reason it still stands due to the IAAF not wanting to admit that they were codded for over 2 decades and by scrapping records like that they are basically admitting that over half of the sports champions in the 70's and 80's were frauds?

But in the end of the day, everybody knows that. It has been proven that Eastern European countries had state sponsored doping so why cant the IAAF go back and readjust the record books? Why is the statute of limitations 8 years? Can this be changed?

That video is deeply disturbing.

myflipflops

Go down through the list of womens records. There are very few clean ones there.

You can't really retroactively nulify performances when no failed tests are there unfortunately.

Pisco Sour

myflipflops wrote: »

Go down through the list of womens records. There are very few clean ones there.

Well aware of that. I'm using Koch as an example as I believe of all the records that is quite possibly the one that will last the longest.

<snip> in breach of charter <snip> Pamila Jelimo seems to have dissappeared off the face of the earth now.

Nobody has come within an asses roar of Koch's. Even Perec was 0.65 seconds off it and she is by far the closest in the last 20 years.

myflipflops

47.6 is a fairly sick time alright. Probably never be beaten. Take a complete physical anomally to do it clean.

You just have to take world records with a pinch of salt in my opinion. Flo'Jo's 100 record is generally accepted to have been done with an illegal wind for example.

Having said all that, one of the most amazing records on the books is Paula Radcliffe's 2.15.25 marathon time. She was 26 seconds away from qualifying for the mens Olympic marathon! Gives hope.

robinph

Radcliffs records are probably an equivalent amount ahead of anyone else's times as Koch's time is alright.

Pherekydes

Radcliffe's record was done in a mixed race with male pacers, wasn't it, so it doesn't really count, either.

Flo-Jo's record was definitely wind-assisted. The proper record should be 10.61 by Flo-Jo in the US trials final.

The IAAF expunge results of those athletes who have admitted cheating without any positive tests, like Chambers, so why can't they expunge old eastern bloc results where it was proven the State "aided and abetted" their athletes.

Incidentally, I wouldn't call many former eastern bloc athletes cheaters, since many were put on drug programs without their knowledge.

robinph

But her fastest time without male pace makers is also faster than anyone else has done a marathon with or without them, and using the IAAF tables ranks a tenth quicker than Flo Jo's time for 100m. Interestingly her non male paced time also ranks a tenth quicker than Carmelita Jeter's 2nd fastest time for 100m.

I'd consider all these athletes to be freaks of nature, just some are more freaky than others.

Pisco Sour

robinph wrote: »

But her fastest time without male pace makers is also faster than anyone else has done a marathon with or without them, and using the IAAF tables ranks a tenth quicker than Flo Jo's time for 100m. Interestingly her non male paced time also ranks a tenth quicker than Carmelita Jeter's 2nd fastest time for 100m.

I'd consider all these athletes to be freaks of nature, just some are more freaky than others.

The Womens marathon only entered the Olympics in 1984 I think so before that it probably didnt get much focus from the Eastern Europeans. Perhaps if the womens marathon was around as long as the womens 400 you would have seen the marathon version of Marita Koch running crazy times. Who knows.

Agreed though. Paula's time gives us hope. Also Blanka Vlasic is getting very close to knocking one communist record off the books. Hope she can manage to get 2.10 next year.

What is bizzare about Koch's run was she did it from lane 2 (and the girl in 2nd who ran WAYYYYY under 49 seconds did it from lane 1 :eek:) I'd hate to see what the record would be if Koch was in lane 5!!!

Pisco Sour

Pherekydes wrote: »

The IAAF expunge results of those athletes who have admitted cheating without any positive tests, like Chambers, so why can't they expunge old eastern bloc results where it was proven the State "aided and abetted" their athletes.

Incidentally, I wouldn't call many former eastern bloc athletes cheaters, since many were put on drug programs without their knowledge.

I think Chambers failed a test for THG after the 2003 Worlds when they re-tested all the samples after discovering a new test for THG. But I agree. Jones didnt test positive but was proven she cheated and all her times from 1999 to 2001 were scrapped! The same should be done to the Eastern Bloc athletes. Those records make a mockery of the sport, and the women will struggle to get as much profile as the men as they wont be breaking world records. I read an article where Sanya Richards (or maybe it was Veronica Campbell, I'm not sure) was saying something along those lines.

Agreed for the most part. They were not cheats. They were victims.

shels4ever

Pherekydes wrote: »

Radcliffe's record was done in a mixed race with male pacers, wasn't it, so it doesn't really count, either.

Flo-Jo's record was definitely wind-assisted. The proper record should be 10.61 by Flo-Jo in the US trials final.

The IAAF expunge results of those athletes who have admitted cheating without any positive tests, like Chambers, so why can't they expunge old eastern bloc results where it was proven the State "aided and abetted" their athletes.

Incidentally, I wouldn't call many former eastern bloc athletes cheaters, since many were put on drug programs without their knowledge.

Maybe we should just get rid of all records now and start over again...

Pisco Sour

shels4ever wrote: »

Maybe we should just get rid of all records now and start over again...

Haha, that wouldn't be fair on all the people who set their records honestly however,

Here's the article I was talking about by the way.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/athletics/7636367.stm

anotheronebites

04072511 wrote: »

<snip> in breach of charter <snip> Pamila Jelimo seems to have dissappeared off the face of the earth now.

caster semenya will destroy this record...'she'll' break 1:50 i reckon

shotgunmcos

Victims or cheats. Innocent until proven guilty. The whole village knew that the woman shot the man in the woods, but the last witness died before testimony and unless she admits it or Bears can really talk...

Kochs record is unreal but no more so than Flo Jo's. Maybe if you mixed the power of Jeter with the technique of Felix you could imagine those records going! And when that day comes we will all smile

I honestly believed MJs 19.32 from Atlanta would be a forever thing the way he did it...

token56

I think records are always there to be broken even if they were set by people who may have be on banned substances etc. It just takes an anomaly like Bolt to come along and redefine what we thought was possible. Looking at what MJ did I always thought it would take a long time for someone to come close to his 200m record. Now we just have to wait and see how far can Bolt go. And you just know he can probably go on and break the 400m and possibly long jump records if he feels like it.

I suppose the womens side is just waiting for someone like to bolt to come along, and no doubt someone will, a genetic anomaly who will redefine womens sprinting or some other event.

Izoard

Slightly OT, but whatever about the athletics -now that the body suits are gone, good luck to anyone trying to set WRs in swimming in the near future.

robinph

Didn't they actually reset the records for swimming, or have a * next to the ones done whilst wearing go faster stripes?

Izoard

robinph wrote: »

Didn't they actually reset the records for swimming, or have a * next to the ones done whilst wearing go faster stripes?

Apparently not...

FINA Statement:
http://swimmingvideos.com/lane9/news/23142.asp?q=FINA%20Bureau%20Votes%20to%20Keep%20Swimming%20World%20Records
Current records:
http://www.fina.org/H2O/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1271&Itemid=633

mloc123

Wasn't the pool design in China meant to have helped the recors also? Something to do with the depth and the empty lane either side?

robinph

I think it was designed so that the waves dissipated on hitting the edge of the pool rather than bouncing back as well, that is just equivalent to the different track surfaces though I guess. But the track surfaces do provide benefits to either sprinters or distance runners, but not both depending on how bouncy they make the track. A pool being quicker would be of use to all their distances.

Brianderunner

^ Yeah it created less turbulence i think.

The 100m, 200m, 400m, 800m, 1500m and 10,000m world records should all be scrapped, cant see it happening any time soon.

Pherekydes

04072511 wrote: »

What is bizzare about Koch's run was she did it from lane 2 (and the girl in 2nd who ran WAYYYYY under 49 seconds did it from lane 1 :eek:) I'd hate to see what the record would be if Koch was in lane 5!!!

It was the World Cup, so there was a random lane draw. Koch got lane 2 and Olga Bryzgina, who had already run 48.60 in August of that year, got lane 1 and ran the fastest ever for 2nd place with 48.27. She went on to win the '88 Olympic gold in 48.65 and anchored the USSR to relay gold and a WR with a time of 47.80! Her daughter was in Derval's race in Barcelona. Her father won OG gold too! Good genes.

<snip> (cos it was subsequently snipped), and someone replied that maybe Caster Semenya might remove it. Now here's a thought: Maybe Kratochvilova was in the same gender boat as Semenya?

fiddy3

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Victims or cheats. Innocent until proven guilty. The whole village knew that the woman shot the man in the woods, but the last witness died before testimony and unless she admits it or Bears can really talk...

Kochs record is unreal but no more so than Flo Jo's. Maybe if you mixed the power of Jeter with the technique of Felix you could imagine those records going! And when that day comes we will all smile

I honestly believed MJs 19.32 from Atlanta would be a forever thing the way he did it...

I'd never celebrate the power of jeter getting a world record given her improvement and coach.

shotgunmcos

fiddy3 wrote: »

I'd never celebrate the power of jeter getting a world record given her improvement and coach.

Ok poor example, the point was more like an athlete with that kind of power and naturally the grace and technique too. Agree with earlier posts about records, there to be broken and no doubt they will fall.

Pisco Sour

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Agree with earlier posts about records, there to be broken and no doubt they will fall.

Do you really think a clean athlete will break 47.60? With all the advancements in training, nutrition etc todays athletes are running 2 seconds slower. In the last decade only 2 athletes have gone under 49 seconds. Sanya Richards with 48.70 (a full 1.1 seconds off the WR) and Ana Guevara at 48.89.

I cant see a clean athlete ever breaking that record and to be honest I cant see a doper breaking it either in this day and age with the massive advancements in testing. You would need to be on a cocktail of stuff to beat 47.60 (like the GDR athletes were) and these days you wont get away with that. Dopers hve to be more discreet in their cheating these days.

Koch's record is 25 years old now and I wouldnt be surprised if it reaches its 50th birthday.

token56

04072511 wrote: »

Do you really think a clean athlete will break 47.60? With all the advancements in training, nutrition etc todays athletes are running 2 seconds slower. In the last decade only 2 athletes have gone under 49 seconds. Sanya Richards with 48.70 (a full 1.1 seconds off the WR) and Ana Guevara at 48.89.

I cant see a clean athlete ever breaking that record and to be honest I cant see a doper breaking it either in this day and age with the massive advancements in testing. You would need to be on a cocktail of stuff to beat 47.60 (like the GDR athletes were) and these days you wont get away with that. Dopers hve to be more discreet in their cheating these days.

Koch's record is 25 years old now and I wouldnt be surprised if it reaches its 50th birthday.

Did anyone every actually think the mens 100m record would be where it is now, I really dont think so, and certainly not in our lifetime, but it is. It didn't take advancements in training or nutrition but one or two freaks of nature, and I mean freaks in the best possible way. It has redefined what most peolpe thought the human body was actually capable of. It will probably take something similar to break that 400m womens record, and maybe the womens 100m record. But these things do and will happen. Records will are there to be broken, even illegally set ones, but they will be broken.

shotgunmcos

04072511 wrote: »

Do you really think a clean athlete will break 47.60? With all the advancements in training, nutrition etc todays athletes are running 2 seconds slower. In the last decade only 2 athletes have gone under 49 seconds. Sanya Richards with 48.70 (a full 1.1 seconds off the WR) and Ana Guevara at 48.89.

I cant see a clean athlete ever breaking that record and to be honest I cant see a doper breaking it either in this day and age with the massive advancements in testing. You would need to be on a cocktail of stuff to beat 47.60 (like the GDR athletes were) and these days you wont get away with that. Dopers hve to be more discreet in their cheating these days.

Koch's record is 25 years old now and I wouldnt be surprised if it reaches its 50th birthday.

Man once believed the world was flat, that if you sailed far enough you would just fall off the edge...

So yes, I think that record will be broken. Hopefully you and I will get to see it too

myflipflops

token56 wrote: »

Did anyone every actually think the mens 100m record would be where it is now, I really dont think so, and certainly not in our lifetime, but it is. It didn't take advancements in training or nutrition but one or two freaks of nature, and I mean freaks in the best possible way. It has redefined what most peolpe thought the human body was actually capable of. It will probably take something similar to break that 400m womens record, and maybe the womens 100m record. But these things do and will happen. Records will are there to be broken, even illegally set ones, but they will be broken.

The mens 200 record probably a better analogy. It stood for 12 years with nobody getting anywhere close to it before Bolt came along and re-defined our ideas about 200 meter running. I think we all felt that MJ's would be there for a long, long time before Usain.

That shows that there is a chance of Koch's record going but it will take somebody completely different to get there. A woman with a mans stature probably. 47.60 really is beyond the realms of anybody competing at the moment.

token56

myflipflops wrote: »

The mens 200 record probably a better analogy. It stood for 12 years with nobody getting anywhere close to it before Bolt came along and re-defined our ideas about 200 meter running. I think we all felt that MJ's would be there for a long, long time before Usain.

That shows that there is a chance of Koch's record going but it will take somebody completely different to get there. A woman with a mans stature probably. 47.60 really is beyond the realms of anybody competing at the moment.

I guess, what's really scary is that even though he ran that race flat out, he was already after running all the 100m's heats and finals, and 200m's heats. I just wonder what he could do on a fresh day full out.

But I agree it will take something completely different. Nobody thought a man of Bolt's size and stature would allow him to run as fast as he does but he's turned it into an advantage, and it could take something equally unique on the womens side for the 400m record to go. It certainly doesn't look like there is anyone at the moment who can alright, but there could be some young kid somewhere who is about the set world alight for all we know.

Pisco Sour

I agree with the comments regarding the possibility of a "freak" coming around in the womens 400m much like Usain Bolt in the mens 100m and 200m. However how do we know that Marie Jose Perec wasn't that so called "freak" that we talk of? She has ran so much faster than any other athlete since the fall of the wall. How do we know that she isn't the greatest natural womens 400m runner the world has ever seen? How do we know that 48.25 isn't the fastest a clean runner will ever be able to go? Maybe she was that "freak"? If there was no state sponsored doping in the 70's and 80's Perec would be the world record holder now for 14 years and would be spoken of in much the same way as Johnson, Edwards etc are spoken of.

sleapy235

How come its always the Eastern European records which only come into question when a ridiculous amount of high profile Americans have been caught for doping over the years? Gatlin, Jones, CJ Hunter, Montgomery, Pettigrew etc. etc.
<snip>
Carl Lewis failed a drugs test also, as did a sizeable proportion of Major League baseball players, as did Floyd Landis, as did Tyler Hamilton.
Serious questions over some other very high profile American sporting greats who Im probably not allowed name.
Yet its only the Eastern European records that are being questioned? If you scrap one record you have to scrap them all

Pisco Sour

Because the US government were not administering drugs to its athletes. Any drug cheating in the USA was done on an individual basis, which happens everywhere. In the GDR it was organised doping from the top down! Thats the difference. There has always been and currently is LOADS of clean athletes from the USA. In East Germany there were none!

And where you got that info on Janet Evans I would love to know. Completely 100% innacurate. I didnt bother quoting you on that post as it is obviously going to be snipped, which would mean mine would be snipped aswell as a consequence

Pisco Sour

sleapy235 wrote: »

Yet its only the Eastern European records that are being questioned? If you scrap one record you have to scrap them all

No they arent the only ones questioned. There are records held by US athletes which would come in for just as much questioning but the forum charter doesnt allow them to be named unless there is enough evidence. With the GDR there is the evidence, with some of the others sadly we dont.

myflipflops

sleapy235 wrote: »

How come its always the Eastern European records which only come into question

It's not only Eatern Euroepans who come into question.

As the OP stated, Eastern Europeans from Martina Koch's era have been tainted by evidence of state sponsored (more accurately, state enforced) doping programs. They don't come into question, they are undeniably drug fuelled records.

Times from American, Jamaicans, Ethiopians, Moroccans and many other countries have been openly questioned over the last 20 years.

Michael Johnson (i believe he was clean by the way) had all his performances questioned greatly. As did Maurice Greene. As does Usain Bolt, Gebreselassie, Bekele, El Guerrouj, Mark Carroll. You name a fast time and I'll show you evidence of people questioning how legitimate it was.

The Eastern European times from the 70's and 80's are just the ones that are undeniably tainted by PED use.

EDIT: Not alleging any of the above were on drugs in case it reads that way. Just a lost of people who suffered from rumours in the absence of any evidence.

ecoli

Mod - Quick reminder not to make allegations against athletes, only athletes who there is evidence and have been found guilty can be named, any speculation is in breach of the forum charter

Pisco Sour

myflipflops wrote: »

Michael Johnson (i believe he was clean by the way) had all his performances questioned greatly. As did Maurice Greene. As does Usain Bolt, Gebreselassie, Bekele, El Guerrouj, Mark Carroll. You name a fast time and I'll show you evidence of people questioning how legitimate it was.

Yeh that is the sad thing about the sport. When somebody puts in an impressive performance you then have the general public doubting its legitimacy. With the exception of Maurice Greene who had controvfersy surrounding him recently there is nobody else on that list with any sort of evidence against them whatsoever so people having doubts are nothing more than sceptics who point the finger at anybody because they know they will never be able to do anything close to amazing like these guys did. I know a few people like that. Strikes me as bitterness.

Its fair enough pointing the finger at people if there progression is very very suspicious (like Fani Halkia who got busted, I always knew she was on drugs and was delighted the day she got caught), but its laughable when people just point the finger at anybody because they have ran a good time. Its pathetic really.

myflipflops

ecoli wrote: »

Mod - Quick reminder not to make allegations against athletes, only athletes who there is evidence and have been found guilty can be named, any speculation is in breach of the forum charter

Sorry, not making allegations against any of the athletes listed above.

Just a list of people whose achievements were doubted by certain people at the time, Mark Carroll being the strangest one i remember!

myflipflops

04072511 wrote: »

but its laughable when people just point the finger at anybody because they have ran a good time. Its pathetic really.

Yes it is.

Unfortunately it's nearly inevitable now, especially among people who don't follow the sport in depth.

ecoli

myflipflops wrote: »

Sorry, not making allegations against any of the athletes listed above.

Just a list of people whose achievements were doubted by certain people at the time, Mark Carroll being the strangest one i remember!

Dont worry wasnt referring to that comment it was just in general as this is a thread that could get messy and have already had to issue a few warnings

MaroonTam

I think the difficulty with the general public is that there is a perception of prevalent drug use because of so many high profile incidents in the past.

It takes a very long period without major scandals for the public to forget the high profile cases of the past.

Even when there is no evidence, there is always the surrounding controversy. Such as the Jamaican federation being reported in the press as not conforming to international testing rules. Even where there is a testing regime for athletes in international events over and above that of the local federation....

Pisco Sour

MaroonTam wrote: »

I think the difficulty with the general public is that there is a perception of prevalent drug use because of so many high profile incidents in the past.

It takes a very long period without major scandals for the public to forget the high profile cases of the past.

Even when there is no evidence, there is always the surrounding controversy. Such as the Jamaican federation being reported in the press as not conforming to international testing rules. Even where there is a testing regime for athletes in international events over and above that of the local federation....

The general public are stupid though. Simple as. Back in the 70's and 80's drugs were rampent but because the testing was dreadful nobody ever got caught therefore the public had no bad image of the sport in their heads. The public were oblivious to what was going on.

Nowadays the sport is way way cleaner but because the testing is so stringent people are going to get caught meaning "scandel" in the eyes of the general public.

So basically the general public had no sort of bad thoughts when the GDR were kicking ass in the 70's and 80's but now, when the sport is a lot CLEANER you see less people tuning in to watch the sport than in the 80's! Makes no sense!

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Athletics is a victim of its own good work in trying to catch cheats! It could easily follow the way of other sports in turning a blind eye as a way of protecting ratings, but they dont! They try to promote fair play. The general public cant see this.

sleapy235

<snip>

But anyway my point is that loads of Americans have been done for drugs, its not just Eastern bloc athletes, so you'd either have to scrap no records or scrap them all. No athlete in the last 30 years can be 100 percent free if suspicion given the ease with which cheats have escaped the testers over the years. And if the records were scrapped, those records would be replaced with times set by new drug cheats. I mean are they going to scratch the names of every Tour de France winner of the last 30 years because if the endemic doping within the sport up until a few years ago? Its best to leave things be with regard to these things

Pisco Sour

sleapy235 wrote: »

<snip>

But anyway my point is that loads of Americans have been done for drugs, its not just Eastern bloc athletes, so you'd either have to scrap no records or scrap them all. No athlete in the last 30 years can be 100 percent free if suspicion given the ease with which cheats have escaped the testers over the years. And if the records were scrapped, those records would be replaced with times set by new drug cheats. I mean are they going to scratch the names of every Tour de France winner of the last 30 years because if the endemic doping within the sport up until a few years ago? Its best to leave things be with regard to these things

<snip> I recall Gary O'Toole talking about doping in swimming during RTE's 2004 Olympic Games coverage and I remember him mentioning a few swimmers that he was 100% certain were absolutely clean, and the 3 I remember were Ian Thorpe, Michael Phelps and Janet Evans. I tend to listen to what he has to say about the sport. He seriously knows his stuff and I remember him saying that as a swimmer you just know which of your competitors are cheating. He said it is some sort of instinct. You just know.

Regards scrapping records. You cant scrap them all. Many of them are clean. If there is evidence they should be scrapped. There is evidence with regards the GDR so those records should be scrapped.