Did Jesus Go To Hell?

SafeSurfer

It says in the Apostles's Creed that

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,born of the Virgin Mary,suffered under Pontius Pilate,was crucified, died, and was buried;he descended into hell.On the third day he rose again;he ascended into heaven,he is seated at the right hand of the Father,and he will come to judge the living and the dead.
Was Jesus in hell to suffer for the sin of mankind?

PDN

SafeSurfer wrote: »

It says in the Apostles's Creed that

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,born of the Virgin Mary,suffered under Pontius Pilate,was crucified, died, and was buried;he descended into hell.On the third day he rose again;he ascended into heaven,he is seated at the right hand of the Father,and he will come to judge the living and the dead.
Was Jesus in hell to suffer for the sin of mankind?

No. 'Hell' is a poor translation of 'hades' which was the place of the dead. It would appear that Christ went there between His death and Resurrection to proclaim deliverance to the righteous dead.

If you are talking about hell, in the sense of a place where people go eternally to be punished for their sins, then we would be talking about 'tartarus' or the Lake of Fire - which appears to be uninhabited until the Final Judgement.

The Bible plainly says that Christ bore our sins "in His Body on the tree" (1 Peter 2:24) which would indicate that Calvary, not any subsequent location, was where Jesus suffered.

krudler

PDN wrote: »

No. 'Hell' is a poor translation of 'hades' which was the place of the dead. It would appear that Christ went there between His death and Resurrection to proclaim deliverance to the righteous dead.

If you are talking about hell, in the sense of a place where people go eternally to be punished for their sins, then we would be talking about 'tartarus' or the Lake of Fire - which appears to be uninhabited until the Final Judgement.

The Bible plainly says that Christ bore our sins "in His Body on the tree" (1 Peter 2:24) which would indicate that Calvary, not any subsequent location, was where Jesus suffered.

Ah, the best getout clause in history, you'd think by now the bible would have been reprinted with footnotes indicating all these "poor translations", look at all the confusion it would solve.

The bible "plainly says" a lot of things, which in turn are usually mistranslated when it suits an argument.

PDN

krudler wrote: »

Ah, the best getout clause in history, you'd think by now the bible would have been reprinted with footnotes indicating all these "poor translations", look at all the confusion it would solve.

The bible "plainly says" a lot of things, which in turn are usually mistranslated when it suits an argument.

The Bible was originally written in Greek and Hebrew. Anyone with even the faintest experience of translating from one language to another knows that one word can end up being translated different ways.

Most modern translations do have footnotes indicating poor translations in the past, or indeed where more than one translation is possible.

However, that is rather besides the point since here we are not talking about the translation of the Bible, but rather the way that a Credal Statement originally written in Greek in the Fourth Century was translated into Latin, and then from Latin to English.

No-one is trying to "get out" of anything. We are simply trying to ensure that our beliefs are not based on mistranslations or misunderstrandings.

And, since you evidently have nothing useful to offer towards that discussion, you are now on your final warning for trolling in this Forum.

philologos

krudler wrote: »

The bible "plainly says" a lot of things, which in turn are usually mistranslated when it suits an argument.

Not at all. The reality is that Ancient Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek often have words that are unique to their own language without any English equivalent. You'll often find this even when studying modern languages, so you can only imagine how different it is for ancient languages.

Here's a whole article explaining a word that doesn't have any English equivalent from Koine Greek.

To pass it off as just someone complaining about translations is just plain petty when anyone knows that meaning can often be lost in changing from one language to another.

By the by, I'm fairly sure in the Apostles Creed we use at church it has "He descended to the dead" rather than to hell.

grizzly

Interesting, I thought he went to Limbo?

PDN

grizzly wrote: »

Interesting, I thought he went to Limbo?

In Medieval theology Hades, or at least the part of it inhabited by the righteous, was sometimes referred to as "the Limbo of the Patriarchs". This was considered to be distinct from the Limbo where they thought unbaptised babies ended up.

Splendour

PDN wrote: »

No. 'Hell' is a poor translation of 'hades' which was the place of the dead. It would appear that Christ went there between His death and Resurrection to proclaim deliverance to the righteous dead.

If you are talking about hell, in the sense of a place where people go eternally to be punished for their sins, then we would be talking about 'tartarus' or the Lake of Fire - which appears to be uninhabited until the Final Judgement.

The Bible plainly says that Christ bore our sins "in His Body on the tree" (1 Peter 2:24) which would indicate that Calvary, not any subsequent location, was where Jesus suffered.

Have to say I get confused about Hades/Sheol & Hell.
PDN, can you tell me is Hades where people go who die now go until the final judgement or was Hades abolished when Jesus was resurrected?

PDN

Splendour wrote: »

Have to say I get confused about Hades/Sheol & Hell.
PDN, can you tell me is Hades where people go who die now go until the final judgement or was Hades abolished when Jesus was resurrected?

My understanding is that the part of Hades where the righteous dwelled, otherwise known as Paradise, was emptied when Christ was raised and its inhabitants taken to be with the Lord to await the new heavens and the new earth. This temporary state of being is what we call 'heaven'.

The wicked and the unsaved, as I understand Scripture, would still be in Hades awaiting final judgement, and that would be where unsaved people go today when they die. In Revelation 20:13-14 we see death and Hades being cast into the Lake of Fire - what we think of as 'hell'.

There are of course, various other viewpoints on this among Christians. While it is interesting to speculate on these things, and we should try to understand the somewhat scanty revelation that Scripture gives us regarding such details, these are not things that are essential to our salvation. We can be totally wrong in our understanding of what heaven or hell will be like, but so long as we are trusting in Jesus then I doubt if our faulty eschatology will prove to be a deal-breaker as far as God is concerned.

rugbyman

PDN

i am an athiest,but I like to read the writings of believers, especially when they are rational. I have great problems when the basis of their beliefs are based on writings from a book.

The poster whomyou threatened above, was making a very valid point about "get out clauses". you used some just now in that fascinating piece about hades, righteous etc.

So, by your reckoning the righteous (BC) went to heaven(a nicer part of hades) the bad went to a worse part of hades. so the righteous were granted eternal salvation without Jesus having died for them. yes I reckon you have covered that, they are just temporarily in Heaven untill the final judgement, when they may well be sent to the lake of fire, the earlier judgement being a wrong decision.

regards Rugbyman

P.S. I am not sure that a moderator should befirmly on one side of any topic.

PDN

rugbyman wrote: »

PDN

i am an athiest,but I like to read the writings of believers, especially when they are rational. I have great problems when the basis of their beliefs are based on writings from a book.

That's unfortunate because the Christian faith is a revelation based faith - ie it is founded on what is written in the Book.

The poster whomyou threatened above, was making a very valid point about "get out clauses". you used some just now in that fascinating piece about hades, righteous etc.

The troll whom I warned above did not have a valid point. No-one is trying to get out of anything - we are simply explaining and debating what the Bible teaches as we understand it.

So, by your reckoning the righteous (BC) went to heaven(a nicer part of hades) the bad went to a worse part of hades. so the righteous were granted eternal salvation without Jesus having died for them.

The righteous (BC) were granted salvation on account of their faith in trusting the promises of God. Again, there's no getting out of anything here - the concept is clearly explained in Galatians where Paul states that Abraham was counted righteous because of his faith in God.

yes I reckon you have covered that, they are just temporarily in Heaven untill the final judgement, when they may well be sent to the lake of fire, the earlier judgement being a wrong decision.

No, that's not the case at all. An omniscient God doesn't do wrong decisions.

I was stressing the 'temporary' nature of heaven because, contrary to modern popular belief, historic Christianity (Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant) has never taught that people spend eternity floating around on clouds in a place called heaven. After the return of Christ and the Last Judgement the Church has always taught that we will dwell with God on a new earth, where earth and heaven are united.

P.S. I am not sure that a moderator should befirmly on one side of any topic.

And that is an issue for Feedback. Feel free to post it there, and I will gladly debate with you why I think it would be a bad idea to have people who couldn't care less about rugby moderating the Rugby Forum.

Baggio1

it's an interesting subject,,,,

im not so sure he didnt go actually down to hell aswell... was on a very interesting site lately about the bayside prophecies in USA ,,ok some believe in apparations, some dont i sit on the fence about most,,unless their blatantly off the wall! anyway one section of the site had a transcript of an actual excorsism that had been done and its fascinating to read how many demons came and went to the womans body during the ordeal.

anyway at one stage the demon who was pressed to speak the truth about all matters was asked about Christ going down to hell after dying and the demon did confirm that he had come with many angels there and the demons kept trying to throw themseleves at Christ etc but couldnt succeed.

Anyway i'm not sure if he did or not but that whole excorsism reading experience certainly was interesting and by the way one of the worst demons in term of hatred of Christ and sheer bitterness was our ol friend Judas Iscariot..now his part in the whole thing was veryyy interesting!

ciao' folks...Baggio...

PDN

Baggio1 wrote: »

anyway at one stage the demon who was pressed to speak the truth about all matters was asked about Christ going down to hell after dying and the demon did confirm that he had come with many angels there and the demons kept trying to throw themseleves at Christ etc but couldnt succeed.

Doctrines of demons? Now, I'm sure I remember reading something somewhere about that.

daithiocondun

PDN, I feel that your reply to findings of "sidedness" is terse, dismissive and a little rude.

I think that the he was merely saying that you are coming down on one side of the argument. He was not saying that moderators should not have an opinion/interest in their relevant area.

Your job is to moderate and submit unbiased information as factually as possible. There is no need to threaten people for their opinions.

PDN

daithiocondun wrote: »

PDN, I feel that your reply to findings of "sidedness" is terse, dismissive and a little rude.

No, I requested him to take it to Feedback and said I'd be happy to discuss it with him there.

I think that the he was merely saying that you are coming down on one side of the argument. He was not saying that moderators should not have an opinion/interest in their relevant area.

And as a poster I have every right to express my opinion.

Your job is to moderate and submit unbiased information as factually as possible. There is no need to threaten people for their opinions.

My job is to implement the Forum Charter. And, while I've never threatened anyone for their opinions, I am warning you that if you breach the Charter again by indulging in back seat modding you will be infracted, OK?

If you wish to proffer your opinions on what the job of a moderator is, then feel free to communicate by PM, if that fails then contact a CatMod or hit the Helpdesk. There is a reason why we have a sticky thread for the Charter that says "Please Read".

Fanny Cradock

daithiocondun wrote: »

There is no need to threaten people for their opinions.

I've read PDN's post a number of times and I can not see any "threats".

It is a breach of the charter to discuss moderating decisions on this forum. If you have a problem the correct procedure across all of the fora on Boards is to contact the mod by PM, contact the c-mods and start a feedback thread if necessary.

Splendour

PDN wrote: »

My understanding is that the part of Hades where the righteous dwelled, otherwise known as Paradise, was emptied when Christ was raised and its inhabitants taken to be with the Lord to await the new heavens and the new earth. This temporary state of being is what we call 'heaven'.

The wicked and the unsaved, as I understand Scripture, would still be in Hades awaiting final judgement, and that would be where unsaved people go today when they die. In Revelation 20:13-14 we see death and Hades being cast into the Lake of Fire - what we think of as 'hell'.

There are of course, various other viewpoints on this among Christians. While it is interesting to speculate on these things, and we should try to understand the somewhat scanty revelation that Scripture gives us regarding such details, these are not things that are essential to our salvation. We can be totally wrong in our understanding of what heaven or hell will be like, but so long as we are trusting in Jesus then I doubt if our faulty eschatology will prove to be a deal-breaker as far as God is concerned.

Thanks for your viewpoint PDN, it is difficult to understand this whole area though. In Matthew, we read of the sheep and goats being separated which seems unnecessesary if the unsaved are already in Hades. If there is judgement on the unsaved in Hades, it sounds like it could be a kind of purgatory. All very confusing, though not a subject I dwell on too much...

PDN

Splendour wrote: »

Thanks for your viewpoint PDN, it is difficult to understand this whole area though. In Matthew, we read of the sheep and goats being separated which seems unnecessesary if the unsaved are already in Hades. If there is judgement on the unsaved in Hades, it sounds like it could be a kind of purgatory. All very confusing, though not a subject I dwell on too much...

The passage you refer to in Matthew 25 is the third of three parables that talk about what happens when Jesus returns. The context appears to be to do with those who are still alive at His return - in that case a separation would be necessary and Hades would not come into the picture at all.

I must admit that it isn't something I dwell on too much either.

Baggio1

PDN hey i'm not sure about doctrines of demons... maybe yur winding me up or being upfront honest..no worries amigo

I just found the whole reading both fascinating, disturbing and also chilling , its the old argument, "those who have faith have no need of prooof, for those who have no faith - no proof will suffice"

but reading the whole account of that excorsism was veryyy intriguing,,, i personnaly believe totally in the reality of hell, satan and pure evil and have read through a few excorsisms over the years, scary and sobering stuff for sure!,,, Judas Iscariot as a demon is really fascinating as he was so close to our Lord, yet betrayed him,,,in those accounts his sense of shame and also demonic hatred of Christ etc is realy eye opening...

so there ya go......

georgieporgy

SafeSurfer wrote: »

It says in the Apostles's Creed that

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,born of the Virgin Mary,suffered under Pontius Pilate,was crucified, died, and was buried;he descended into hell.On the third day he rose again;he ascended into heaven,he is seated at the right hand of the Father,and he will come to judge the living and the dead.
Was Jesus in hell to suffer for the sin of mankind?

I think the parable of Lazarus and the rich man helps us with this. The rich man died and went to hell (hades). And Lazarus in his turn , "was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom where he was comforted".

Abraham's bosom is a nice way to describe the temporary destiny of the souls of the rightuous who died in Old Testament times. Remember - heaven was closed to man after the Fall.

Hence the need of a Saviour. After the crucifiction Jesus decended to Abraham's bosom and leads those souls to heaven , which is now open (hence we refer to that day as "Good" Friday)

Sid_Justice

I find these topics incredibly complex and difficult to understand. Obviously my knowledge of Christian mythology is severely lacking. But based on previous knowledge, my understanding was Jesus was God. Is that something all Christian's believe (like the clue is in the name I assume). Perhaps the divinity of Jesus Christ is another topic completely.

Just from a mythological point of view, the story makes more sense if Jesus was a more literal son of God, rather than a son of God who was actually also God. And the holy spirit.

FISMA

krudler wrote: »

Ah, the best getout clause in history, you'd think by now the bible would have been reprinted with footnotes indicating all these "poor translations", look at all the confusion it would solve.

The bible "plainly says" a lot of things, which in turn are usually mistranslated when it suits an argument.

The same is true of my Physics book. The book "'plainly says'" a lot of things that people misuse, misunderstand, and abuse.

If you think getting the message across is easy, just talk to a lawyer. :pac::pac::pac:

FISMA

Sid_Justice wrote: »

I find these topics incredibly complex and difficult to understand. Obviously my knowledge of Christian mythology is severely lacking. But based on previous knowledge, my understanding was Jesus was God. Is that something all Christian's believe (like the clue is in the name I assume). Perhaps the divinity of Jesus Christ is another topic completely.

Just from a mythological point of view, the story makes more sense if Jesus was a more literal son of God, rather than a son of God who was actually also God. And the holy spirit.

Sid, Christians believe that there was a man named Jesus. Full name Jesus Christ. Jesus was his name, Christ was what he was.

He was both perfectly human and perfectly God. Jesus was the man part, visible to human eyes and died on the cross. God was the faith part.

When Jesus said: "I am the light," I think he really meant it. Light has a duality, like Jesus. Like has a wave-particle duality. So to had Jesus.

We Christians also believe in the Trinity. A concept that has been confusing for thousands of years. Fortunately, Quantum Mechanics has finally caught up with the bible and can now explain: the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit - it's called super-position.

tuxy

I think talking about translations is pointless. If you know the story about the tower of babel you know that god does not want translation of languages to be possible.

Morbert

PDN wrote: »

My understanding is that the part of Hades where the righteous dwelled, otherwise known as Paradise, was emptied when Christ was raised and its inhabitants taken to be with the Lord to await the new heavens and the new earth. This temporary state of being is what we call 'heaven'.

Who is being referred to in Romans 3:10? I was under the impression that nobody was righteous in God's eyes.

Morbert

FISMA wrote: »

When Jesus said: "I am the light," I think he really meant it. Light has a duality, like Jesus. Like has a wave-particle duality. So to had Jesus.

The 'duality' is a property of all quantum systems, whether they be light, electrons, or cats.

We Christians also believe in the Trinity. A concept that has been confusing for thousands of years. Fortunately, Quantum Mechanics has finally caught up with the bible and can now explain: the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit - it's called super-position.

What? Is faith an idempotent projection operator?

Fanny Cradock

Morbert wrote: »

Who is being referred to in Romans 3:10? I was under the impression that nobody was righteous in God's eyes.

I think you have to read that in light of how Paul constantly relates everything back to Jesus. Romans 3:10 isn't referring to Jesus, it refers to the rest of us. In verse 21 onwards the important word is righteousness - a life lived that is pleasing to God. While verse 10 talks about the unrighteous of us, verse 21 onwards talks about the righteousness of Jesus and how the law and all the long and complicated interaction between God and his creations culminated in the life, death and resurrection of Christ.

Morbert

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I think you have to read that in light of how Paul constantly relates everything back to Jesus. Romans 3:10 isn't referring to Jesus, it refers to the rest of us. In verse 21 onwards the important word is righteousness - a life lived that is pleasing to God. While verse 10 talks about the unrighteous of us, verse 21 onwards talks about the righteousness of Jesus and how the law and all the long and complicated interaction between God and his creations culminated in the life, death and resurrection of Christ.

I should have clarified. By nobody, I meant the rest of us. As in, wouldn't paradise have always been empty?

PDN

Morbert wrote: »

Who is being referred to in Romans 3:10? I was under the impression that nobody was righteous in God's eyes.

Our own righteousness is like filthy rags - but when we place our faith in Christ (in the OT this meant putting one's faith in the promises of God to send a Saviour) then we are counted as righteous in God's sight.

Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. (Galatians 3:6-9)

Beeker

If God really wanted to send us a message......in fact the most important message of all time.....the message that we can be saved and go to heaven by following his son Jesus! and ancient writings were the only way he could think of doing it, you would think he could have done a better job!