Transitioning for the wrong reasons?

Goodshape

I've always tried to maintain the opinion that (perhaps not including the fetish porn industry) a male-to-female transsexual is a female. In mind first and body, hopefully, later. The fact they were born with male genitals little more than a birth defect, to put it crudely. Transitioning would have little to do with actual sex (as in the act) and more to do with correcting that defect.

Speaking with a Brazilian friend last night who has more experience with transsexuals than I would (friends, friends of friends, more involved in the LGBT community as a whole), he didn't see it that way. According to him, the majority of transsexuals he knows wouldn't see themselves as a gender other than what they were physically born with.

I was sort of alarmed to hear it but from his experience of knowing these people, it's primarily a sex thing. A male-to-female transsexual is and always was a gay man. The "transition" being little more than an attempt to attract straight men to sleep with / form relationships with.

To me -- and no offense intended -- that sounds mentally disturbed. But I couldn't counter with anything more than "I hope not" or with what I consider to be the politically correct way of looks at trans people.


So, is there a split in the trans community between people actually wishing to realise themselves as the gender they have always felt they were, and those who are simply gay men taking it (imo) a step too far? Do you see that as a problem or no? Or do you think my friend is just mistaken in his assumptions? (he did say "I don't need to ask, I just know" when I asked him is he sure they don't think of themselves as *being* female).

Links234

It sounds like your friend is making an extremely crass and offensive assumption, and has very limited experience of transgender people.

deirdre_dub

If you spend just a few seconds thinking about it, you can easily see why your friend is wrong.

A gay man wants to interact with my penis, so if I get rid of it, I'm no longer attractive to gay men!

I met a gay man in Pantibar some time ago. He found me attractive, and he just couldn't believe I was going to get rid of my male bits! He was *pleading* with me not to do it!

So, no, your friend is full of cr*p.

Kanoe

interested in this topic too, was actually going to post on a related issue. I'm guessing your friend is just relaying his feelings and experiences. I was talking to someone yesterday and basically we both agreed we could relate to the idea of being genderqueer and it not being about a specific sexual identity at all.

Goodshape

links234 wrote:

It sounds like your friend is making an extremely crass and offensive assumption, and has very limited experience of transgender people.

Sounds like. And I'd hope so, for the sake of those involved.

I don't know. Simple as that. My knowledge of transgender issues is largely based around what I read on this forum.

I know my friend knows transgendered people -- knows some of them very well -- and I was pretty shocked to hear his "assumptions", but there you have it. I'm in no position to say what does or does not go on in the transgender community or in the minds of those considering transition.

Are you saying this categorically does not happen? It wasn't a case of one-way-or-the-other, just that the majority in his experience were not transitioning to *become* a different gender, only to appear as though they were.

Goodshape

deirdre_dub wrote: »

If you spend just a few seconds thinking about it, you can easily see why your friend is wrong.

A gay man wants to interact with my penis, so if I get rid of it, I'm no longer attractive to gay men!

That's exactly the point. They transition not to attract gay men but to attract straight men.

Links234

Goodshape wrote: »

Are you saying this categorically does not happen?

No, not saying that at all. In fact I remember reading something about a man who had transitioned, then de-transitioned because he found that he could actually get more guys as a man than as a woman. that was a case where a gay man did transition for the wrong reasons, but I think that is also an example of the absurdity of transitioning for sexual reasons because it didn't work out for him.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just saying that it is extremely rare.

your friend saying that the majority of MtF transsexuals don't see themselves as being women, and that he 'just knows' that, it sounds like he's had some preconceived notion that he's holding without even taking into account the views, opinions or feelings of transsexual women that he knows.

the idea really crumbles when you've got people like me who are attracted to women.
there's a lot of lesbian transwomen

Annasopra

I think your friend is completely mistaken - it may be the case sometimes but Gender Identity and Sexual Orientation are completely separate so a person could be a Trans MTF who identifies as lesbian

Goodshape

Yup, so you're all more or less agreeing with my line of thinking so far. I did mention lesbian transwomen, which seemed to be sort of a foreign concept to him.

I really did find the whole conversation surprising, in the sense that I'd consider this guy to have much more experience with the LGBT community than I would -- with a number of his close friends in Brazil having transitioned or in the process of doing so.

Perhaps he's either not as clued in as he would think, or it's a case of where you find one transitioning for the "wrong" reasons, you're probably going to find others around them. Which may have coloured his judgement of the wider community.

Links234

Goodshape wrote: »

Yup, so you're all more or less agreeing with my line of thinking so far. I did mention lesbian transwomen, which seemed to be sort of a foreign concept to him.

I really did find the whole conversation surprising, in the sense that I'd consider this guy to have much more experience with the LGBT community than I would -- with a number of his close friends in Brazil having transitioned or in the process of doing so.

Perhaps he's either not as clued in as he would think, or it's a case of where you find one transitioning for the "wrong" reasons, you're probably going to find others around them. Which may have coloured his judgement of the wider community.

Well, having experience with "the community" doesn't necessarily mean having understanding. You can have interactions with people and still be fairly ignorant of them. if the idea of lesbian transwomen seems odd to your friend, I'd say that this might be the case.

it's like, in America, there's a transgender woman running for congress who's against gay marriage, read here. I think if anyone should know better, she should. sad proof that just because you might be an LGBT person, doesn't mean you can't still be a bigot.

also, I think it's hard for some people to imagine their gender identity not matching up with their physical sex. they just don't even think about it, they just assume that your gender identity is your physical sex. so they try to assume other reasons for people wanting to transition.

it doesn't really seem likely to me that so many people would want to transition for wrong reasons though. like, it feels absolutely horrible when your body doesn't feel right to you. if someone was going to transition, they'd be making their body feel wrong and different to them. look at men who develop gynecomastia, it really plays havoc with their self esteem, and I've known two guys who've already gone and had mastectomies because it was causing them so much distress. if someone was to transition for the wrong reason, I'd say it would feel completely wrong to them, they'd be putting themselves through a lot of mental anguish and making their bodies feel out of sync with who they are inside.

seems unlikely that people would go through that just to "attract straight men"

Freiheit

I did read of one gay man in the bible belt of the U.S.A. who underwent male to female sexual reassignment surgery because of the shame of being a gay man in his world. Later regretted such but that was his motivation. It's an extreme example but there is all sorts out there.

Also in Iran homosexuals are forced to undergo gender reassignment in order to make relationships heterosexual, the penalty for homosexuality being death.

Katherine Jane

I cannot understand your friends logic. But can answer for myself.

I did NOT begin my transition really thinking about sex. I began my transition because I am a girl, and have always BEEN a girl. The idea of going through transition just to be in a heterosexual relationship is so far down my list of reasons as to be absent. Have there been some who transitioned for the wrong reasons? I'm sure there have, there have been cases of people with regrets, of course, and I am certain that a lot of the transitions in Iran are misguided, but who can blame those poor people when the alternative is a death sentence?

I can also say that it is a bit scary, and I did have minor doubts, especially when HRT began it's magical changes, but those were fleeting, and I wouldn't change any of them. I enjoy my curves, and enjoy being seen by everyone as the woman that I have always been.

I think your friend has some learning to do on gender dysphoria before he makes silly statements on an issue that there is still too little known about. Would any of us have chosen this path through life? I doubt it!

shoegirl

Goodshape wrote: »

Speaking with a Brazilian friend last night who has more experience with transsexuals than I would (friends, friends of friends, more involved in the LGBT community as a whole), he didn't see it that way. According to him, the majority of transsexuals he knows wouldn't see themselves as a gender other than what they were physically born with.

I was sort of alarmed to hear it but from his experience of knowing these people, it's primarily a sex thing. A male-to-female transsexual is and always was a gay man. The "transition" being little more than an attempt to attract straight men to sleep with / form relationships with.

This is common in cultures where being gay is far less acceptable. The transgendered phenomenon as we know it is largely a western construct, though some cultures are following through and starting to adopt a a concept of gender identity difference more like we know it. In history, there have often been people who defied the norms of gender but it had different meanings and contexts to what it has today.

What is, of course, also happening is that western ideas of gender identity itself is being challenged by people who don't want to conform to what they perceive as stereotype of a "man trapped in a womans body" or vice versa.

deirdre_dub

Goodshape wrote: »

That's exactly the point. They transition not to attract gay men but to attract straight men.

This sounds like the usual "trans people are only out to trick decent straight cisgendered folk" rubbish! Good grief - my transition is about ME!

Here's how it works for me. Before I recognised my true gender identity, I considered myself to be a straight man. I only fell in love with women, though I was too jealous of them to be able to form a relationship. When I started to recognise my true gender, therefore, I considered myself to be lesbian. Much to my surprise, I shortly afterwards started to find men attractive! As I'm sure you can imagine, this came as something of a shock to me. I now identify as bisexual, though leaning more towards being straight (i.e. leaning towards an attraction to straight men).

Does this mean I am transitioning so that I can have a relationship with straight men? NO! I am transitioning because I cannot live my life as a man! If a relationship with a nice man results from that, great, but that's not why I am transitioning. I mean, I didn't even know that a relationship with a man might be something I might be interested in until after I recognised my true gender!

Am I trying to trick straight men into having a relationship with a man? Eh - no - and I couldn't even of I wanted to, as I am not a man.

Being trans is about gender identity - not sexuality! The two are not the same thing - gender identity is between your ears, whereas sexuality is between your legs.

Annasopra

Is he talking about Trans people in Brazil?

Goodshape

@deirdre_dub -- I realise it's an emotive subject but really, neither myself nor my friend intended offense here. And again, I wasn't asking (and certainly not supposing) "so is this how it is for everyone?" -- as Freiheit said, there are all sorts out there. I'm personally relieved the response here has been more inline with my own thoughts on gender identity, as being separate from sexual orientation.

Sorry if I'm picking you up wrong but the use of capitals and exclamation marks in your post give me the impression you're shouting down the interwebs at me . I'm just trying to broaden my knowledge on the subject. The idea that someone would change their physical gender only to attract a sexual partner or, as others pointed out, due to societal pressures, was a totally new one to me. Or at least that it would happen on a large scale was totally new to me.

I'm more interested in other peoples perception of how much this happens and how it is seen / accepted / not-accepted from within the Trans community itself.


@Johnnymcg -- I'd imagine the trans people he knows are primarily Brazilian, yeah.

shoegirl wrote: »

This is common in cultures where being gay is far less acceptable. The transgendered phenomenon as we know it is largely a western construct, though some cultures are following through and starting to adopt a a concept of gender identity difference more like we know it.

That's interesting.

deirdre_dub

Goodshape wrote: »

@deirdre_dub -- I realise it's an emotive subject but really, neither myself nor my friend intended offense here. ... Sorry if I'm picking you up wrong but the use of capitals and exclamation marks in your post give me the impression you're shouting down the interwebs at me .

I appreciate that you are trying to broaden your understanding. I hope that the first response you got - from Links - would have taught you just how emotive these offensive myths around transgendered people can be. Under the circumstances, I thought my use of exclamation marks was quite sparse indeed! Usually, when I'm shouting at people, I'll USE CAPS, and finish with a BUNCH of exclamation marks!!!!!!! GOT IT?!?!?!!!?!! :P

I'm more interested in other peoples perception of how much this happens

In Ireland, it hardly happens at all. There is rigorous psychological and psychiatric screening of trans people.

@Johnnymcg -- I'd imagine the trans people he knows are primarily Brazilian, yeah.

The psychological and psychiatric screening of trans people that we have in Ireland isn't practiced universally. That DOESN'T MEAN that it isn't practiced in Brazil (I simply don't know), but it might offer a possible explanation for your friends beliefs.

deirdre_dub

shoegirl wrote: »

This is common in cultures where being gay is far less acceptable. The transgendered phenomenon as we know it is largely a western construct

Cultures down through the ages have had transgendered people assimilated into their culture. Some terms you might like to look up on Wikipedia - "Two-Spirit", "Hijra" and "Fa'afafine". The Wikipedia article on "Third gender" seems to have a good overview.

In some cultures, transgendered people would be honoured as leaders and healers. Makes a stark contrast to our own culture...

though some cultures are following through and starting to adopt a a concept of gender identity difference more like we know it

Actually, there is also a movement in the other direction - concepts of transgenderism from other cultures is being assimilated into ours.

Eebs

Goodshape wrote: »

@deirdre_dub -- I realise it's an The idea that someone would change their physical gender only to attract a sexual partner or, as others pointed out, due to societal pressures, was a totally new one to me.

I really don't think anyone does that. If you had any experience with the many many hoops you need to jump through and red tape you need to cross before you get to change your physical gender you'd know that anyone who was doing this for their jollies would feck off long before getting past hurdle 1. I believe that no one who goes through the system does for anything other then a deep personal need. One is because there is such a low 'regret' rate and two because it's just that fecking hard.
No orgasm is worth the time and torture of going through the trans medical path.

I also think you may be mixing up the ideas of sexual identity and gender identity. I mean, I don't think it's unreasonable to want to have sex with say a heterosexual man if I identified as a heterosexual woman. Sex is a part of living and I don't think it's really so much to ask to want to have sex with someone in the gender you feel most comfortable. To want to have that? What's the problem?

Also, I don't see any issue with anyone who wants to play around with gender for sex. Why not? Their fetish is hardly hurting you? So why do you care?

I mean, ultimately it's not for you or anyone else to decide. To even get near a prescription for hormones would take a heap of time and psych evaluations from at least 3 doctors. Your evaluation of someones reasons being 'sane' means nothing if they get through that.
At the end of the day, if they're happy, regardless of the reason - who cares???

Things like this post though do trivialize the trans experience. It makes it seem like it's 'so easy' to access a 'sex change'. It really isn't.
They also make it seem weird because you're equating it with sex fetishes and there are umpteen people, even just on this board, who want to get on with their lives and for whom sex is so low on the list of their priorities with their transition. It's bound to bug a few people.

But ultimately I don't buy it. No one does that. Not JUST for those reasons.

Eebs

I submit this article from Shakesville. I think it's basically the crux of my argument for body autonomy and allowing trans people to transition whatever their reasons.

http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2010/09/feminism-101-my-body-is-mine.html#disqus_thread

Louisevb

Cutting through all the nonsense that people write who have no knowledge of what being transgender means is fairly straightforward for people like me, but can be a head wrecker for anyone who doesn't get the full picture.

Firstly the term transgender can and is used as an umbrella term for those who dress in the clothes of the opposite gender, covering the complete spectrum from CD to "transexual" But Transgender (transexual) is also used as a term for those who live permanently in the opposite gender to that in which they were born., i.e. true transgender

No true person who is born transgendered will entertain not going the full way and having their SRS as soon as practical. For those people it's a necessity not a choice. It is not a sexual thing for those who I call truly transgendered.

However, there will be those who at some stage will want to keep their male bits until the reality dawns, or they realise that they are not fully transgender. Many in this category like the female persona and are probably more "gay" or attracted to men than being true transgender at some particular point.

Yet saying this can cause eyebrows to be raised. Under the transgendered nomenclature it is like a rainbow, where at one end you have the cross dresser then the transvestite and then the true transgendered (or transexual as some would call them) Within that spectrum nothing is fixed...The transvestite can become transgendred and the cd can become a transvestite over time.

Add to that mix the fact that attraction may change when the gender is changed or may stay the same as before and you have the diversity that is being transgendered from CD to true transgender. In other words someone who is m2f may change gender and still be attracted to woman or they may only be attracted men or even both.