jews in the whermacht

Fuinseog

did anyone see that programme last night.
I heard somewhere that some served in the SS.
zou also have the case of the Jew who was in the HJ, whose story was made into a movie Europa Europa.


I found out recently that the ghettos had their own Jewish police who worked alongside the nazis.
something you do not hear about very often is that several kapos in the camps were Jewish. I wonder what became of them after the war?

PatsytheNazi

Fuinseog wrote: »

did anyone see that programme last night.
I heard somewhere that some served in the SS.
zou also have the case of the Jew who was in the HJ, whose story was made into a movie Europa Europa.

Watched half of it and turned over. Sensationalist title with very little substance. Those " Jews " who did join were usually only half or queater Jews through marriage.

I found out recently that the ghettos had their own Jewish police who worked alongside the nazis.
something you do not hear about very often is that several kapos in the camps were Jewish. I wonder what became of them after the war?

Yes I read that in Schindlers List about the Jewish police in the ghettos. Just goes to show that if you give a little man and underachiever a tin badge and a bit of authority you can get him to do anything for you.

gbee

Could not watch it. Boring.

Full Jews not allowed.

1/2 Jews allowed.

1/3 Jews allowed.

We were given guns and ............... switched channels.

PatsytheNazi

gbee wrote: »

Could not watch it. Boring.

Full Jews not allowed.

1/2 Jews allowed.

1/3 Jews allowed.

We were given guns and ............... switched channels.

+1 Exactly. Fuinseog you missed nothing.

marcsignal

I watched it for the sake of watching it, didn't like the American narration.
I might get hold of the book tho, I'd say it's interesting enough.

http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Jewish-Soldiers-Descent-Military/dp/0700613587

Fuinseog

apparently some Jew served in the SS and even Einsatz Gruppen

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article418551.ece

its very hard to find info about kapos. perhaps beacuse they were a post war embarrassment.

prominent Jews especially in show business were actually protected by the Nazis
wer ein Jude ist, bestimmen wir", (we will dictate who is jewish) Göring

marcsignal

Fuinseog wrote: »

its very hard to find info about kapos. perhaps beacuse they were a post war embarrassment.

survivors ?

ching ching

princeofparma

If Hitler had not been an anti-semite the majority of Jews in Germany would have supported him. They were just as nationalistic as any other German - Jews enthusiastically served in the Germany Army during the First World War.
Most Jews in Germany and Austria saw themselves as fully integrated into society and had almost as much contempt for eastern Jews who wore brimmed hats, beards, ate kosher, spoke Yiddish and practised ancient customs as any anti-semitic Nazi. The secular Jews of course went into the gas chambers along with the rest.
Today secular Jews who are descendents of Western European live with orthodox Jews who are descendents of Eastern European and Russian Jews in Israel and there is nearly as much tension between them as there is tension with the Palestinians.

gbee

princeofparma wrote: »

If Hitler had not been an anti-semite the majority of Jews in Germany would have supported him.

Thanks for this post, I was not aware of the divide in the Jewish community, but it does explain a lot of the apparent 'discrepancies' throughout history.

I must keep this post in mind in future and back analysis it over other historic events.

tac foley

I'm Ashkenazic, and a close friend of mine, whose family originally came from Cordova, is Sephardic. We have known each other since school-days - we both went to the same public school.

We agreed back then never to let the differences outweigh the similarities - we even went to the same orthodox kibbutz on our three-year aliyah, and had a great time with our extremely frum Hassidic brethren, and treated it as a learning curve for tolerance among Jews of all makes.

As a result, neither of us can look at a squash, marrow or similar vegetable without a shudder.

As for Jews in the Wehrmacht, I can't really make a comment about that, except to say that my late and much-missed Uncle Micky joined the Wehrmacht in 1938, and, as a SCNO funker [signaller] jumped into Crete, His war ended just outside Moenchen-Gladbach, in Nord-Rhein-Westpahlen in early 1945, when his column was attacked by a bunch of America FGA. He ended up in a British military hospital near Oswestry, where he met my Aunt Ruby - a Jewess. They married, and lived very happily until 1978 when she died - he lasted only two years longer.

He had no reason whatsoever to go back to Germany, and never did. An orphan, he had never even known where he came from. He might even have been Jewish, for all he knew, he once told me.

tac

princeofparma

gbee wrote: »

Thanks for this post, I was not aware of the divide in the Jewish community, but it does explain a lot of the apparent 'discrepancies' throughout history.

I must keep this post in mind in future and back analysis it over other historic events.

All across Europe not just in Germany there were right wing street thugs of all different languages and nationalities - we had the blueshirts and the IRA in our own country fighting eachother in the 1930's.
Not many people know that Jews were already persecuted by the Polish fascists who ran Poland and in other countries in Eastern Europe long before 1939 which is why collaborators during Nazi occupation were enthusiastic murderers of Jews. There were also lots of Jews who were extreme nationalists in whichever country they lived before the European Holocaust when they were singled out as separate, there were Jews who were militant communists and there were Jews who were militantly Jewish and hostile to everybody else. Jewish gangsters and criminals saw the black market in the ghettos as a chance to make a quick buck and they had business relationships with underworld gangsters who flocked into the ranks of the Nazi SS.
Many nationalistic Jews in Germany probably agreed with the perceived link between Jewishness and Bolshevism in Russia even though they themselves were targets for Nazi persecution. Other Jews were self-hating and identified much more with Germany than their Jewish origins. It is said that many leading Nazis and perhaps even Hitler himself had Jewish ancestors.

xflyer

And that's why anti Semitism is absurd. Jews are just people. There could be no more a Jewish conspiracy than an Irish conspiracy. Jews are just like everyone else, with all the same failings, political attitudes and the rest.

The holocaust was the terrible culmination of centuries of anti Semitism in Middle Europe and the product of one man's obsessive bigotry. It would be nice to think the lesson was learned but reading many posts on even this forum, you can see it hasn't.

Morlar

princeofparma wrote: »

All across Europe not just in Germany there were right wing street thugs of all different languages and nationalities - we had the blueshirts and the IRA in our own country fighting eachother in the 1930's.

Just to correct you on several points. Streetfighting was not the preserve of the Right. It was a reaction to the very real threat of soviet bolshevism and communist moves at taking over. Munich, Berlin, Hamburg etc all saw organised communist attempts at taking over either through an 'aufstand' or putsch or whatever. So it is not as one sided as you would paint it with 'rightwing streetfighting thugs' going about the place starting trouble for no reason whatsoever. Post WWI german society was vulnerable to and attracted expansionist communism which the liberal govt of the day seemed incapable of dealing with effectively.

princeofparma wrote: »

Not many people know that Jews were already persecuted by the Polish fascists who ran Poland and in other countries in Eastern Europe long before 1939 which is why collaborators during Nazi occupation were enthusiastic murderers of Jews.

The reasons I would attach more credibility to are different than your belief that it was down to 'plain old anti-semitism for no other reason whatsoever'.

In many places the wehrmacht were welcomed as liberators of people oppressed by soviet bolshevism. The link between, and disproprtionate jewish influence within that oppression is nothing new whatsoever. I would take the view that the isolated post-occupation actions by locals against jews rightly should be viewed in that context. In much the same way that historians of the future looking back to our time viewing palestinians attacking jews should not take the view that it is 'plain old anti-semitism for no other reason whatsoever'.

princeofparma wrote: »

Many nationalistic Jews in Germany probably agreed with the perceived link between Jewishness and Bolshevism in Russia even though they themselves were targets for Nazi persecution.

I am not sure how you would quantify this as 'many' but I would agree some were likely caught in that situation.

princeofparma wrote: »

. . . perhaps even Hitler himself had Jewish ancestors.

Alleged but never proven.

Fuinseog

princeofparma wrote: »

If Hitler had not been an anti-semite the majority of Jews in Germany would have supported him. They were just as nationalistic as any other German - Jews enthusiastically served in the Germany Army during the First World War.
Most Jews in Germany and Austria saw themselves as fully integrated into society and had almost as much contempt for eastern Jews who wore brimmed hats, beards, ate kosher, spoke Yiddish and practised ancient customs as any anti-semitic Nazi. The secular Jews of course went into the gas chambers along with the rest.
Today secular Jews who are descendents of Western European live with orthodox Jews who are descendents of Eastern European and Russian Jews in Israel and there is nearly as much tension between them as there is tension with the Palestinians.

the odd thing is that todays jews and their supporters hate Germany and German culture, yet it was the Jews who promoted German culture the most in east before 1945.

HavingCrack

Fuinseog wrote: »

the odd thing is that todays jews and their supporters hate Germany and German culture, yet it was the Jews who promoted German culture the most in east before 1945.

That isn't true . It really isn't...

Fuinseog

HavingCrack wrote: »

That isn't true . It really isn't...

would you care to elaborate?

HavingCrack

Fuinseog wrote: »

would you care to elaborate?

I could say the same to you...

Mike 1972

It is hardly inconceivable that there were Jews who managed to successfully conceal their background and were either conscripted or volunteered (as part of their efforts at concealment or in the hope of getting an opportunity to desert once posted abroad) for the Whearmacht.

Of course concealing ones background is easier said than done (particularly in countries like Germany where registration of the population for church taxes and ID cards was the norm). But if one had a non-Jewish sounding name and had (along with their family) lived a secular and inconspicuous lifestyle it may have been possible to get away with it ?