Savannah cats, legality in Ireland?

Coriolanus

Couple of issues, linked but not inseperable.

First, anyone know anything about the legality of importing Savannah cats, or other exotic hybrids? I've absolutely fallen in love with Savannahs in particular and would love to eventually get one. I know they cost a bundle in the States, so this isn't an immediate goal anyway, never mind what kind of hurdles other than money might have to be hurdled.

If they aren't proscribed, does anyone know who to approach about specifically importing a cat? Presumably you have to sign them up for a quarantine period, get them their shots and an inspection by an irish vet etc.

No idea where to start at all basically!
Thanks if anyone can help at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m81IU3A18k

peasant

Oh yippee !

First the dog-wolf hybrid craze, now the cat-serval hybrid.

What's next? cat-lynx? cat- jaguarundi ? cat - caracal?

Coriolanus

peasant wrote: »

This is something new. New things are dangerous. Down with this type of thing.

Not to be flippant, but we wouldn't have domesticated animals at all if people had always been so thoroughly dismissive.

Do you have any legitimate concerns that you might add to the thread or are you just trolling?

peasant

Nevore wrote: »

Not to be flippant, but we wouldn't have domesticated animals at all if people had always been so thoroughly dismissive.

Not to be flippant either but what do you want with a cat that is half African wildcat other than satisfy a craving for the latest cool fashion pet?

You're willing to pay a fortune and jump through all sorts of hoops to get it ...invest that money and energy into a few desperate, neglegted moggies from your neighbourhood and I promise you you'll get much more satisfaction out of it in the long run (though not in the high jump )

Coriolanus

peasant wrote: »

Not to be flippant either but what do you want with a cat that is half African wildcat other than satisfy a craving for the latest cool fashion pet?

You're willing to pay a fortune and jump through all sorts of hoops to get it ...invest that money and energy into a few desperate, neglegted moggies from your neighbourhood and I promise you you'll get much more satisfaction out of it in the long run (though not in the high jump )

Well, for one, I didn't know they were "cool" in a fashion sense, I'd just heard about a news story in the States where the cops got loads of cougar reports which turned out to be a Savannah out for a prowl.
For two, I already take care of a fluid half dozen or so neighbourhood moggies which I do derive a lot of satisfaction out of. We pretty much feed any cat that turns up (and try to keep them healthy and wormed etc, but that's a battle with some of the more feral ones).
I wouldn't have even considered this idea if I wasn't really into cats generally.

tallus

Nevore wrote: »

Well, for one, I didn't know they were "cool" in a fashion sense, I'd just heard about a news story in the States where the cops got loads of cougar reports which turned out to be a Savannah out for a prowl.
For two, I already take care of a fluid half dozen or so neighbourhood moggies which I do derive a lot of satisfaction out of. We pretty much feed any cat that turns up (and try to keep them healthy and wormed etc, but that's a battle with some of the more feral ones).
I wouldn't have even considered this idea if I wasn't really into cats generally.

Sorry for going off topic Nevore, but happy 2000th post

Coriolanus

tallus wrote: »

Sorry for going off topic Nevore, but happy 2000th post

Haha, sweet. I'd never have noticed if you hadn't said. Cheers.

I almost don't want to post this... Ruin the number.

peasant

Nevore wrote: »

For two, I already take care of a fluid half dozen or so neighbourhood moggies which I do derive a lot of satisfaction out of. We pretty much feed any cat that turns up (and try to keep them healthy and wormed etc, but that's a battle with some of the more feral ones).
I wouldn't have even considered this idea if I wasn't really into cats generally.

Well then, I guess you deserve a "treat"
(I still find the general idea of wild hybrids (of pretty much any pet) pointless and objectionable though)

tallus

peasant wrote: »

Well then, I guess you deserve a "treat"
(I still find the general idea of wild hybrids (of pretty much any pet) pointless and objectionable though)

Each to their own I guess.

What's so objectionable about hybrids ? Domestic cats are only one step away from being ferral anyways. From what I hear it only takes them one generation to go ferral.
You kind of made your comments sound personal peasant.
At least that's the impression I got.

morganafay

I think it'd be really fascinating to have a savannah cat. And people in Africa have kept servals as pets for a long time, so why not anyway. People keep other exotic pets, like lizards, snakes, birds, so why not cats.

I'm sure it's legal here, because there don't seem to be many laws about exotic animals.

I don't think there are breeders here but think there might be in the UK.

peasant

There is a big difference between what is a domestic cat going feral and a wild animal (in this case the serval) that was never domesticated in the first place.

There are issues of conservation, illegal trade (where do all the servals come from?) and all sort of breeding and health issues once hybrids become mainstream. There also might be behavioral problems (very much so in the case of wolf hybrids for example).

Domesticated animals have evolved more or less naturally and over long periods of time ..new age hybrids are commercial, fashionable creations and IMO quite pointless.

The desire to have a (partially) wild animal curling up at your feet is something that I personally file under vanity and yes, I probably do get a bit etchy about it.

And it is not "each to their own" ... not when it comes to defensless animals. There is a border to be drawn somewhere.
Some draw that border at elephants in the shed or crocs in the bathtub. I draw it at pointless hybrids.

Coriolanus

peasant wrote: »

Some draw that border at elephants in the shed or crocs in the bathtub.

Don't be giving me ideas. :P

Sundew

Would you not consider getting a Bengal instead?
http://www.wwbengal.com/

suziwalsh

Well said peasant

fonecrusher1

peasant wrote: »

Not to be flippant either but what do you want with a cat that is half African wildcat other than satisfy a craving for the latest cool fashion pet?

Christ, what an arrogant & condescending post.

Not everyone is as materialistic as your trying your best to make the OP out to be. The OP didn't ask for someone to stand on their little soap box & preach to people (people who are animal enthusiasts) about whatever it is your ranting about.

Being a mod & having over 12,000 posts you should know better.

Nevore that savannah cat looks amazing.:)

peasant

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Nevore that savannah cat looks amazing.:)

Well, I guess on that point we can all agree

DeadlyByDesign

Holy crap! I have been on these boards a while now and it has been a long time since I have seen a level of vitriol hurled at any one particular OP. He/she comes on here asking a VERY simple and coherent question and gets nothing but sarcasm and a “holier than thou” attitude directed at him/her. Cool your jets people and cop on. Answer the question in a way that will educate or don’t bother.

Also the comparison between exotics such as lizards/snake/spiders etc is well founded. I have kept rats in the past, so the comparison between the 2 breeds are not a million miles away. OP honestly I would look into it and see. One the animal has a stable environment to mosey around in, I can’t see the problem to be honest.

seamus

DeadlyByDesign wrote: »

One the animal has a stable environment to mosey around in, I can’t see the problem to be honest.

Well this is the key isn't it? Nevore, you need to consider how you intend to keep this cat, because you can't just open the door and let it out. Well you can, but it's likely to get stolen. You also have no idea what threat this larger cat poses to other animals in the area - small cats, dogs and rabbits, for example. So you're getting a large cat, you're going to need a large area to keep him in.
They're banned from Australia precisely because the Australians are worried that if one was to be allowed roam, it would breed with feral species and put a much larger predator into the Oz ecosystem.

Importing a cat, you will no doubt have to get all sorts of vaccines and jump through some hoops. Information here:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/moving-country/moving-to-ireland/coming-to-live-in-ireland/bringing_pets_to_ireland

The Sweeper

Nevore, try a bengal or ocicat instead. You get the wild look, plus the pretty high maintenance activity, without needing to have a wild animal.

I have cats coming out my ears and I have experience in cat rescue, and I socialise feral cats for rehoming (stopped for a while then feral kitten season started up) - and I can tell you I wouldn't have an F1 Savannah or any other F1 hybrid in my house. Even if I had no other animals I'd baulk at the responsibility of an animal like that.

As for Savannahs out for a prowl being mistaken for cougars - either the witness was blind and didn't see the collar and harness on the cat, or the breeder is irresponsible for allowing the cat to roam. An animal like that should never, ever be allowed out unsupervised. And you'd need special pen to allow a cat that size access to exercise - no six foot fence will keep that in.

Cherry Blossom

It's a very real possibility that the cat may have to go through the extremely painful process of having it's fangs removed! There used to be a man up the north could get you anything if you had enough money, he can't help you though as he's in jail . . . . . thankfully!!:D

Dyr

peasant wrote: »

Domesticated animals have evolved more or less naturally and over long periods of time ..new age hybrids are commercial, fashionable creations and IMO quite pointless.

They didn't really evolve though, we "evolved" them through selective breeding. Plus it wasn't always over a long period when you compare it to something that evolved through a natural selection process.

Wibbs

This wild hybrid notion should be less an issue with cats I would imagine. Unlike dogs, cats are more like tame wild animals than domesticated and there is a difference. Like tallus said the house cat will go feral in one generation and will act and usually look like a wild cat(pretty much, not including very specific breeds). If after a few generations you got one of those wildcat kittens it's gonna be the usual pet moggy when it grows up. Servals have been domesticated, or rather tamed. Indeed they're one of the oldest cats to be kept by humans. Longer than the european wildcat for a start. The cats the ancient egyptians venerated and mummified and loved as pets? Servals, not tibbles nuzzling your ankles looking for lovin and grub.:)

While dogs will go feral they won't act like wolves. Not for a very very long time. Wolves were domesticated way back in the day, 10's of 1000's of years back in the day, but a modern wolf defo isnt. Look at the Dingo which is an early domestic dog gone feral. It's more wolflike in its behaviour, but will slip back into domestication mode very quickly. Wolves rarely if ever do, no matter how young you get one or how much you socialise it. Plus a wolf or wolf dog(especially the latter, as they lose the timidity of wolves) can cause far more damage and pose more danger than a cat to humans. So the comparison to wolf dogs is not really valid. If you could cross a tiger with a cat then that would be a better comparison.

Servals actually act more like dogs than cats in their behaviour. They get very bonded to people and will pine if separated. So if you do want to get one of these hybrids and it turns out more serval than cat, you wont be able to leave it to its own devices as much as the average cat, which will happily do its own thing and play with the neighbours kids when youre at work. Thats the other problem with hybrids, you dont know what you'll get. In wolf dogs, The phenotype tends to follow the genotype. IE the more wolflike it looks the more wolflike it tends to act. I dunno if that follows for savannah cats?

Wibbs

The Sweeper wrote: »

Nevore, try a bengal or ocicat instead. You get the wild look, plus the pretty high maintenance activity, without needing to have a wild animal.

Is the Bengal not also a wild cat hybrid? I thught it was, or is that way back?

An animal like that should never, ever be allowed out unsupervised. And you'd need special pen to allow a cat that size access to exercise - no six foot fence will keep that in.

+1. Like the guy in the UK years back who had a wolf in his back garden that got out and went walkabout(luckily it was placid in nature and wandered back). He didnt realise they can jump 3 metres and can dig like badgers. Dumb. Judging by that video escape would not be an issue for that cat.

morganafay

OP, just thought I would warn you though . . . I was watching some animal rescue show the other day where they rescued loads of savannahs and bengals, and they were saying that, even though they are counted as domestic animals, they are not as tame and friendly or cuddly as normal cats. They are very bossy and can be cranky and very very demanding.

And personally I love cats that are cranky and have an attitude, I have one like that! But they might not be that friendly, might be quite moody and aggressive, but also have their moments when they're really friendly too. But if you're prepared for that, then that's ok.

seamus

Bambi wrote: »

They didn't really evolve though, we "evolved" them through selective breeding. Plus it wasn't always over a long period when you compare it to something that evolved through a natural selection process.

One current theory is that the vast bulk of domestication occured passively. That is, grey wolves living near human settlements would come down from the hills and scavenge on human waste. The braver the wolf, the more successful he would be and therefore the more offspring he would have, who in turn would be equally brave. Over a thousand generations (which is only 1,000 years in human terms), most of the wolves living near human settlements would display little or no natural fear of humans and then would be accepted by humans as part of the natural wildlife - sleeping in and around people's homes, with people having "favourites" who may sleep in their homes and giving origin to the concept of the pet. It's possible that the dogs also incidentally followed and assisted humans in the hunt and received some of the spoils for their effort, before they became accepted as a key part of the hunting duo.

You can see how cats would equally evolve to domesication in the same way - human settlements were rife with rats and mice and cats would be happily accepted in by the humans as pest control as opposed to being actively put there by people.

There are of course other theories - such as humans adopting orphaned wolf cubs. But IMO, the experiments carried out with foxes in the USSR (and evidence from circuses and zoos the world over) prove that orphaned baby animals don't naturally become tame and domesticated when raised by humans. So it seems to me that prehistoric man would have little inclination to put that amount of effort into systematically domesticating an animal which would pose a danger to him and his family.

So I wouldn't be convinced about the tameness of a cat breed which is less than 30 years old. However, the Serval from which the Savannah is derived, tends towards smaller prey, so I would be less concerned about danger to people, but if not being cared for properly a Savannah cat could easily switch to preying on local dog and cat populations.

Wibbs

morganafay wrote: »

And personally I love cats that are cranky and have an attitude, I have one like that! But they might not be that friendly, might be quite moody and aggressive, but also have their moments when they're really friendly too.

And depending on the individuals mix you don't know what you'll end up with. In a way a 100% pure serval would be "better" as at least you would have an idea of what you were getting into and could allow for that. With a mix its a total crap shoot.

I'd agree with the Sweeper on this. She's got real world extensive experience of all sorts of cats, so if with all that experience she reckons no way Hose, I would go on her recommendations over those who don't.


PS all I know of this is a guy I knew in France with a pure serval and it was very hard work. Not aggressive, but needed constant interaction. Think more a needy hyperactive dog, than a normal cat.

The Sweeper

Wibbs wrote: »

Is the Bengal not also a wild cat hybrid?

Bengals that are sold as pets now, by registered breeders, are domestic cats. Their original lines included wild cats, for both behaviour and markings, however the kittens now are quite far enough removed from their wild ancestry that they are domestic. I think it's F5 onwards that are offered as pets, not sure.

Subsequently, a male bengal should be a strikingly marked cat, around 6kgs as an adult (so a large domestic cat), but no longer a wild hybrid. He will still exhibit extreme cat behaviour - big leaps and jumps, huge curiosity, a wide vocal range, a love of water, a high play drive and a high prey drive (because those two things are linked strongly in cats!) and extreme sociability. On the flip side, he'll be full on, bored easily, destructive if ignored, and wilful if not admonished consistently for bad behaviour.

These are not - absolutely NOT - cats that you should ever allow to roam, and they're not a beginners cat (assuming 'beginner' means 'don't have a clue but do have a set of unrealistic expectations' - after all, we all start somewhere) and they're not a cat for someone who works all day.

Dyr

seamus wrote: »

One current theory is that the vast bulk of domestication occured passively.
But IMO, the experiments carried out with foxes in the USSR (and evidence from circuses and zoos the world over) prove that orphaned baby animals don't naturally become tame and domesticated when raised by humans. So it seems to me that prehistoric man would have little inclination to put that amount of effort into systematically domesticating an animal which would pose a danger to him and his family.

My understanding of the silver foxes study in russia was that it showed how quickly a breed could be domesticated? Obviously it was carried out by scientificians rather than Neanderthals though.

Wibbs

seamus wrote: »

So it seems to me that prehistoric man would have little inclination to put that amount of effort into systematically domesticating an animal which would pose a danger to him and his family.

True. There's also the factor that back when we domesticated each other both our lifestyles were much more similar. A prehistoric hunter gatherer and a tame wolf would fit pretty well. Both lived in small close extended family groups with strong hierarchies, moving big distances hunting as a team. The same family in a house with the man and woman working 9 to 5 today would not fit. Cats are actually better fits for that than even modern dogs in a lot of cases.

So I wouldn't be convinced about the tameness of a cat breed which is less than 30 years old. However, the Serval from which the Savannah is derived, tends towards smaller prey, so I would be less concerned about danger to people, but if not being cared for properly a Savannah cat could easily switch to preying on local dog and cat populations.

Well the serval was one of the earliest cat species to be domesticated. But that breed could be a different kettle of fish to a wild one. The Egyptians and the Babylonians had them for at least 3000 years which is bound to have changed them. Chances are the breeding stock is not from that lineage.

seamus

Bambi wrote: »

My understanding of the silver foxes study in russia was that it showed how quickly a breed could be domesticated? Obviously it was carried out by scientificians rather than Neanderthals though.

Quickly, absolutely, but as you say under very specific conditions and using very specific breeding techniques. It adds tonnes of weight to evolutionary theory because it shows that you don't even necessarily need thousands of years to significantly change the traits of a species.

If you consider that prehistoric man's average lifespan was in the thirties or possibly 40s, then no single man would have had the resources to successfully domesticate any animal in his lifetime - from his point of view any animal is feral and dangerous. Though the concept of health and safety was no doubt new back then
It's possible that he unwittingly domesticated the animals - all humans had animals living with them. Any which attacked a person were killed, those which didn't, bred. In this way you wouldn't necessarily have to domesticate an animal in your own lifetime so long as your offspring and neighbours were following the same rules.

morganafay

The Sweeper wrote: »

These are not - absolutely NOT - cats that you should ever allow to roam, and they're not a beginners cat (assuming 'beginner' means 'don't have a clue but do have a set of unrealistic expectations' - after all, we all start somewhere) and they're not a cat for someone who works all day.

I agree they shouldn't be left roam, because they'll probably get stolen or at least would be more of a danger to other animals.

But I also think they shouldn't be kept in a house all the time, because they are very playful and more wild than a normal cat, so some sort of outdoor enclosure/aviary that they can have access to from the house would be a good idea for them.

Wibbs

seamus wrote: »

In this way you wouldn't necessarily have to domesticate an animal in your own lifetime so long as your offspring and neighbours were following the same rules.

True. I suspect there was some planning involved though. After all the same animals would have been around our ancestors, particularly Neanderthals, but they didnt have dogs. We were the first.

Gave us a huge advantage too. IMHO way more than is given credit for. We have the smallest noses of all hominids. Why need a big one, if you have Fido with you? Great for Fido as well. Wolves are masters of tracking, finding and running down prey, but contrary to popular belief aren't that successful taking down big prey. Cue his new monkey mate with the spears and big sticks. They'll also look after our family if we're not around and we'll do the same for their pups. We both have a similar and adaptable diet and they'll chow down on vermin reducing disease(wolves in the wild eat a lot of rodents) Marriage made in evolutionary heaven and a major leg up over Neanderthals. Ditto for cats later on. They covered the vermin base and protected our grain stockpiles when we get to farming. Most of all both animals add massively to our social lives. So beyond the obvious care and love, I think we should every so often give our cats and dogs a tummy rub and a little treat just for helping us out in the distant past. We wouldnt be the same without them.

The proof of the pudding is the world today. Wolves are under pressure worldwide, as are wild(non feral) cat populations, yet Fido and Tibbles are happily ensconced in huge numbers in front of our fires well fed and keeping us happy(and that they do). If Neanderthals had won out? We wouldnt have this forum, or it would have been a subforum of Food and Drink

morganafay wrote: »

I agree they shouldn't be left roam, because they'll probably get stolen or at least would be more of a danger to other animals.

But I also think they shouldn't be kept in a house all the time, because they are very playful and more wild than a normal cat, so some sort of outdoor enclosure/aviary that they can have access to from the house would be a good idea for them.

Like the Sweeper said not for newbies and the savannah cats just sound like a very bad idea fullstop, even to moggy experts like her, however attractive a proposition they may be to the unaware.

The Sweeper

I'd equate Savannah cats with wolf hybrids, and bengal cats with huskies and malamutes, if you want a comparison of the sort of maintenance they require and the sort of ownership. That's the only way I can really think of it.

Bengal cats are very popular in Australia. There are a lot of registered breeders, and a lot of unregistered breeders. There are also a huge number of surrendered bengals. People buy them for their appearance, then cannot maintain them. They surrender unsocialised cats to the pounds at a year old or less, and they're put down.

The bengals available to the home buyer, if put out of the house to roam, are destructive to wildlife but they won't do much to the feral cat gene pool because they're very domestic in terms of their interbreeding themselves.

If you live in a cool country and want a large cat, get a maine coon - coonies are very interactive and like to play with water and be mischevious too.

Coriolanus

Thanks bunches for all the replies (good and bad :P) folks! I actually thought I'd have trouble getting anyone at all to reply!
I'm at work, so can't read in depth, I'll post later.

Discodog

The Sweeper wrote: »

if not admonished consistently for bad behaviour.

It's a pity that this remark spoilt a good post. Reward good behaviour don't admonish bad.

The OP asked about legality. I will be surprised if the forthcoming Animal Welfare Bill does not introduce extremely stringent conditions for keeping certain wild animals & hybrids.

The Serval is Cites listed.

Our man in Havana

At present you can own any animal so long as it is not endangered. If you have the cites papers you can own a lion if you want.

I doubt the animal welfare bill will make any changes to the status quo.

The Sweeper

Discodog wrote: »

It's a pity that this remark spoilt a good post. Reward good behaviour don't admonish bad.

If you ignore bad behaviour in your cat, especially in exotics, they will simply persist. By 'admonish' I mean you react to bad behaviour, when you catch them in the act, with a sharp noise, or a clap of your hands. You can't simply ignore them as they tear up your rugs, rag your carpet, climb into the toilet to scatter water everywhere, get up on your counters, climb your curtains, stalk you and pounce on your feet, steal your laundry (esp socks) or chew any electrical wire they find.

If you ignore them while they do those things, they'll just keep on doing them. You have to be consistent with it too, because they'll continue to misbehave long past the point where a dog would have learned it's not supposed to do something.

If you show a dog that you don't want it to do something, the first thing it will do is stop the activity.

If you show a cat that you don't want it to do something, the first thing it will do is stop the activity while you're watching.

johndoe99

Nevore wrote: »

Couple of issues, linked but not inseperable.

First, anyone know anything about the legality of importing Savannah cats, or other exotic hybrids? I've absolutely fallen in love with Savannahs in particular and would love to eventually get one. I know they cost a bundle in the States, so this isn't an immediate goal anyway, never mind what kind of hurdles other than money might have to be hurdled.

If they aren't proscribed, does anyone know who to approach about specifically importing a cat? Presumably you have to sign them up for a quarantine period, get them their shots and an inspection by an irish vet etc.

No idea where to start at all basically!
Thanks if anyone can help at all.

Have a look at this website:

Savannah Cats being sold in Louth:
http://www.muamat.com/classifieds/973/posts/8_Pets_Animals/89_Cats_Kittens/5131662_Nice_home_raised_Savannah_cats_ready_to_go_home.html

morganafay

johndoe99 wrote: »

Have a look at this website:

Savannah Cats being sold in Louth:
http://www.muamat.com/classifieds/973/posts/8_Pets_Animals/89_Cats_Kittens/5131662_Nice_home_raised_Savannah_cats_ready_to_go_home.html

I'd be really wary of ads like that. If they say they'll deliver them then don't trust them! Don't pay anything til you get the cat.

Discodog

The Sweeper wrote: »

If you show a cat that you don't want it to do something, the first thing it will do is stop the activity while you're watching.

So it is pretty pointless unless you are watching it 24/7.

It is likely that the AWB will closely mirror the Scottish AWB. If so it will be impossible to keep a wild animal without a license.

Noffles

Fantastic looking animals.... would be a class animal to own, as long as you can give it the caring, time and money that it would require it would be very rewarding... Would love one but I would imagine it would instantly kill off our own 6 cats... shame.

The Sweeper

Discodog wrote: »

So it is pretty pointless unless you are watching it 24/7.

That's just ridiculous.

It is extremely important to consistenty praise good behaviour and persistently correct bad behaviour from your cat. It's more difficult than with a dog, but it DOES work. However, you have to keep it up, all of the time, because some cats will never quite stop doing the things they wanted to do, even though they know you don't want them to do it.

Moreso with exotics, because they're like 'concentrated catness'. They're also usually extremely bright - similar to the oriental breeds.

I don't get your approach - are you suggesting that you simply do nothing at all and sit and watch the cat reduce a kitchen roll that's its stolen from the counter to confetti on your living room floor in about 30 seconds?

Sundew

The Sweeper wrote: »

If you live in a cool country and want a large cat, get a maine coon - coonies are very interactive and like to play with water and be mischevious too.

Have a "coonie" and they are one very cool,intelligent and funny cat as well as being huge!!!
Don't talk to me about water,constantly mopping up water all day long as he likes to paw his water bowl constantly and dump his toys in the bowl.
My "coonie" is also trained to use the human toilet. Wonder can you train savannagh cats to do that???

Cherry Blossom

In Scotland

http://www.gayzette-bengals.co.uk/

tallus

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

In Scotland

http://www.gayzette-bengals.co.uk/

Gorgeous looking animals.