VW want to buy Alfa Romeo

Bluefoam

This bit just makes me want to be sick:

"It's pretty simple in our view -- VW could kill the Seat brand and re-launch it as Alfa. Former VW CEO Bernd Pischetsrieder used to say that he wanted to turn the (struggling) Seat brand into a 'Mediterranean, emotional, sporting brand -- VW's Alfa Romeo'," Warburton wrote.

"Rather than imitate, why not just actually become Alfa Romeo?"

Please Fiat, don't let it happen.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE67M26E20100823

mike65

Dear god! Have these people no soul? I presume any given class of Alfa will end up a rebaged/retrimmed VW model then.

alias no.9

mike65 wrote: »

Dear god! Have these people no soul? I presume any given class of Alfa will end up a rebaged/retrimmed VW model then.

I'm an Alfa fan, but the 159 / Brera & Spider are the only Alfa's since the 75 that haven't been based on a Fiat. If they could turn the Fiat Tipo into the Alfa 156, imagine what they could do with an A4? VW's motivation for this will be that Seat simply can't shift large cars which are much more profitable than smaller cars.

CarMuppet

VW might look at Alfa and see a brand that it could transform into something successful. The technological links and scale benefits are clear -- Alfas are all front wheel drive, transverse engined cars," he wrote, adding an Alfa MiTo or Giuletta could be built on a VW Polo and Golf platform.

That reminds me of the plot in "Silence of the Lambs".... VW wanting to wear the skin of Alfa Romeo... that's just plain sick.

1948Wolseley

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!

If VW can't make Seat work, why do they think the could do a better job with Alfa? As I've said before, Seat can be fixed in one quick move by bringing out a production version of the Tango concept, based on the VW BlueSport roadster.

I'd also much rather see Alfa return to a mostly rear wheel drive lineup, possibly using an Alfa-Lancia-Chrysler RWD platform.

sundula

At least any potential link up with Alfa would improve VW's dodgy reliability

Max Power1

Hrmm. A VW built Alfa? Does this mean we may finally get a reliable alfa then!

mickdw

Max Power1 wrote: »

Hrmm. A VW built Alfa? Does this mean we may finally get a reliable alfa then!

It would if vw were actually reliable.

sundula

Maybe VW will rebrand all their commerical gear and turn Alfa into a light commerical vechile builder to give business people more options now that gromley and the green machine are going to put extra effort into stopping people using their vans for the school run.

Max Power1

mickdw wrote: »

It would if vw were actually reliable.

Are you seriously criticising VW's reliability in a pro alfa romeo thread

Bluefoam

Max Power1 wrote: »

Are you seriously criticising VW's reliability in a pro alfa romeo thread

Lets not get into this here. Alfa's reliability is as good as any other in the top end of the industry - based on their current model line-up. VW's reliability is grand, but not as good as their reputation would suggest.

Guy:Incognito

Max Power1 wrote: »

Hrmm. A VW built Alfa? Does this mean we may finally get a reliable alfa then!

We dont have reliable VW's yet.:)

Tea 1000

This will be a bad move. VW don't know when to leave well-enough alone. They tried to turn Seat into a brand similar to Alfa, and what did we get? A Toledo that looks more like a Hi-Ace than a 156. Brilliant work there alright!
Even the interiors of all 4 main-stream VW owned brands are quite similar, even with any attempt at drastically changing them.
Also, the VW platform cars are all dull to drive, which the 156 wasn't. Granted the 159 was a bit of a disappointment, but that was due to a chassis that was designed to be shared. The next one will be a peach I reckon, if they take queue's from the Guiletta and move it on a bit.
VW are incapable of that kind of work.
The only exception would be if they took the same view that they did with Lambo, by improving their build quality, adding a few behind-the-scenes components and wiring, and letting the Lambo crowd do the rest, which is what they did best.

af_thefragile

Well, Audi has taken over Lamborghini and they have made it much better.
Now Lamborghini still retain their Italian madness and don't fall apart!

If VW can do something like that with Alfa then I'm all up for it.
Who wouldn't want a car that has that Italian styling and passion with German built quality...!


And I think no one buys a Seat because people see it as a cheaper versions of VW hatchbacks.

I think people would see Alfa as more styled and sporty version of VW cars, so there is a good possibility it might work...

Alfa tbh is a great brand to have under your name. Its got everything, sporting heritage, Italian passion and all that... You could make a cheap Alfa hatchback and people would buy it without any harm to the badge reputation, you could also make a supercar Alfa and it'll go down as a classic.

maidhc

alias no.9 wrote: »

If they could turn the Fiat Tipo into the Alfa 156, imagine what they could do with an A4?

They could make one of these.....



VAG are incapable of making a car that looks interesting. Even their few handsome Audis are overcooked looking at this stage.

(and Fiat own CNH, one of the worlds biggest agri machinery and plant companies. They are well capable of making stuff that lasts when they want to!)

af_thefragile

^Don't forget Lamborghini is under VAG and they make some of the most exciting cars out there.

I think Italians and Germans can do some really good things together. Just let the Italians style the car and let the germans build it.

Like Jeremy put it, if you go on a holiday, you want the Germans to make the hamper so that the handles don't break off and you want the Italians to make the food!

alias no.9

maidhc wrote: »

They could make one of these.....



VAG are incapable of making a car that looks interesting. Even their few handsome Audis are overcooked looking at this stage.

Not a good comparrison, the Alfa guys took some bits from an old unloved Fiat and turned it into something that is still pretty remarkable today. The Seat guys took most of a pretty successful Audi and added some beige. This is exactly why VAG wants to dump the Seat guys and get the Alfa guys on board.
Fiat would be nuts to sell Alfa, it will be their key brand that they can launch in the US with the Chrysler tie up and also one of the main beneficiaries of a shared large platform since Fiat, like Seat, cannot shift large cars.

Bluefoam

Fiat compete very well in the super car segment with Ferarri, sports/prestige cars with Maserati, small/affordable cars with Fiat itself.

They need Alfa to compete in the Mid section of the market & its their only brand that can compete successfully with BMW, Mercedes & Audi + its their key to success in aMurica.

One of the biggest issues they have is the cross over between the sporting Alfa brand and 'luxury' Lancia brand - the two occupy too much of the same space and are sapping each other of focus...

af_thefragile

I don't think Fiat will sell Alfa to VW.
Its too prestigious a brand for Fiat to give away. Its never going to do that!

GTE

Even if the sale does go through then I highly doubt that VW will fire all the Alfa crowd. If they get the balance right the VW will have a lot to add to the Alfa brand with out getting rid of all the things that people seem to love about Alfa.

I dont know what the deal is with Alfa engines but wouldn't having engines from both companies in each others cars be a good thing? And then there is styling!

Slightly off topic but I would have loved if VW had built the Fiat Stilo. Like the look of the car but the one I had experience fell to bits.

samsemtex

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If this happens you might as well kiss Alfa Romeo goodbye.

samsemtex

af_thefragile wrote: »

Well, Audi has taken over Lamborghini and they have made it much better.
Now Lamborghini still retain their Italian madness and don't fall apart!

If VW can do something like that with Alfa then I'm all up for it.
Who wouldn't want a car that has that Italian styling and passion with German built quality...!


And I think no one buys a Seat because people see it as a cheaper versions of VW hatchbacks.

I think people would see Alfa as more styled and sporty version of VW cars, so there is a good possibility it might work...

Alfa tbh is a great brand to have under your name. Its got everything, sporting heritage, Italian passion and all that... You could make a cheap Alfa hatchback and people would buy it without any harm to the badge reputation, you could also make a supercar Alfa and it'll go down as a classic.

Yes but its not as if Lamborghini parts can be shared with Skoda.

An Alfa is a relatively ordinary car and i can guarantee they would just end up sahring loads of parts with VW and Audi. I dont think it will happen though because Alfa are about to come good. The guilietta is likely to be the start of a major brand revival. Every magazine review i've read so far puts it as a class leader.

af_thefragile

samsemtex wrote: »

Yes but its not as if Lamborghini parts can be shared with Skoda.

An Alfa is a relatively ordinary car and i can guarantee they would just end up sahring loads of parts with VW and Audi. I dont think it will happen though because Alfa are about to come good. The guilietta is likely to be the start of a major brand revival. Every magazine review i've read so far puts it as a class leader.

Many parts in the Lambo are straight out of Audis.
Like the interior in the Gallardo is out of an Audi A8.
And the Audi R8 uses the Gallardo's V10 engine.

And I don't see anything bad with Alfa sharing parts with VW and Audi. They're gonna be much more reliable then Alfa parts.
As long as they let the Italians do the styling, I'll be happy with whatever is underneath the body. Its VAG stuff so it'll be good.

samsemtex

af_thefragile wrote: »

As long as they let the Italians do the styling, I'll be happy with whatever is underneath the body. Its VAG stuff so it'll be good.

double post. See below.

samsemtex

af_thefragile wrote: »

As long as they let the Italians do the styling, I'll be happy with whatever is underneath the body. Its VAG stuff so it'll be good.

This is a complete and utter myth. I'm sorry but look up reliability surveys and you will see that all VAG brands aside from Skoda score atrociously. On top of that their parts are incredibly expensive. They are no more reliable than Alfa as far as i'm concerned.

VAG are not reliable. when will people get this through their heads?

And how is a Gallardo having an A8 interior a good thing? If i spend over 200k on a supercar the last thing i want is to get a lift in a german taxi and see the same interior in a car that will depreciate hugely and eventually be a sub €20k car.

Bluefoam

bbk wrote: »

Even if the sale does go through then I highly doubt that VW will fire all the Alfa crowd. If they get the balance right the VW will have a lot to add to the Alfa brand with out getting rid of all the things that people seem to love about Alfa.

I dont know what the deal is with Alfa engines but wouldn't having engines from both companies in each others cars be a good thing? And then there is styling!

Slightly off topic but I would have loved if VW had built the Fiat Stilo. Like the look of the car but the one I had experience fell to bits.

Alia would probably lose access to the fiat power plants which are streets ahead of vw's engines.

af_thefragile

samsemtex wrote: »

This is a complete and utter myth. I'm sorry but look up reliability surveys and you will see that all VAG brands aside from Skoda score atrociously. On top of that their parts are incredibly expensive.

VAG are not reliable. when will people get this through their heads?

And how is a Gallardo having an A8 interior a good thing. If i spend over 200k on a supercar the last thing i want is to get a lift in a german taxi and see the same interior in a car that will depreciate hugely and eventually be a sub €20k car.

My uncle's got a VW Passat and nothing has gone wrong with it in the 4 years he's had it. So far its been pretty reliable.

They might not be as reliable as Toyotas but I reckon VAG cars are still more reliable than Fiat group cars. You can just look at the way VAG group cars tend to hold their value much better compared to how Alfas tend to depreciate like a rock.

samsemtex

Bluefoam wrote: »

Alia would probably lose access to the fiat power plants which are streets ahead of vw's engines.

Fiat are a far more innovative company than VW. Their new Multijet engines are superb and it was Fiat who invented the common rail engine which is what all modern diesels are based on.

af_thefragile

samsemtex wrote: »

Fiat are a far more innovative company than VW. Their new Multijet engines are superb and it was Fiat who invented the common rail engine which is what all modern diesels are based on.

But then Fiat and Alfa cars have a reputation of being unreliable and breaking down. While most VAG cars have a reputation of being extremely well built...

Eoin

af_thefragile wrote: »

You can just look at the way VAG group cars tend to hold their value much better compared to how Alfas tend to depreciate like a rock.

That doesn't prove anything, other than the success of VW's marketing department.

samsemtex

af_thefragile wrote: »

My uncle's got a VW Passat and nothing has gone wrong with it in the 4 years he's had it. So far its been pretty reliable.

They might not be as reliable as Toyotas but I reckon VAG cars are still more reliable than Fiat group cars. You can just look at the way VAG group cars tend to hold their value much better compared to how Alfas tend to depreciate like a rock.

That doesnt mean anything.

Lots at the honestjohn.co.uk page for the current Passat. It is a truly dreadful car and I have no doubt that it is worse than any recent Alfa. And the parts are extortionately priced.

Sure i have a load of friends who go on about their VWs and dont really make an issue of relibility despite all of them having had to replace pretty major parts in them. In face i dont know a single VW owner who hasnt spent significant money on their car in the last two years. One of them I met last week is getting his gearbox reconditioned after just 96,000 miles.

johnos1984

I really don't understand the thinking behind VAG wishing to take over the Alfa brand.

It doesn't make sense to me as they already have that position filled with the Audi range of car. A far better fit would be Lancia, a Luxury brand that would fit in a far better in the Latin markets where the SEAT was designed for.

Also it would be a far better brand from which to spearhead their expansion in the all important Chinese market as Lancia is a luxury brand which is what that market is crying out for.

Is VW starting to turn into the next British Leyland with all of these brands they can't manage and a drop in quality. Only time will tell

unkel

What a complete non-story. Ah wait, it's August. VAG isn't buying Alfa Romeo. Period.

maidhc wrote: »

VAG are incapable of making a car that looks interesting.

Yep they're pretty brutal these days. VAG can't make good looking cars themselves so they've just bought Italdesign Giugiaro

VolvoMan

af_thefragile wrote: »

Well, Audi has taken over Lamborghini and they have made it much better.
Now Lamborghini still retain their Italian madness and don't fall apart!

The VW Group took over Lamborghini, not Audi, despite what marketing may say.

I don't think FIAT have done too bad a job of running Alfa to be honest. Build quality aside, the 156 and GT were superb cars.

VolvoMan

alias no.9 wrote: »

Not a good comparrison, the Alfa guys took some bits from an old unloved Fiat and turned it into something that is still pretty remarkable today.

I would think the 156 is very loosely based on the Tipo, as you have to bear in mind that there are some ten years between the two cars; a long time in the automotive world. I also know for a fact that they added multilink rear and double wishbone front suspension; something way ahead of the suspension used in the Tipo.

EPM

af_thefragile wrote: »

But then Fiat and Alfa cars have a reputation of being unreliable and breaking down. While most VAG cars have a reputation of being extremely well built...

I nearly spat my coffee on the screen reading that:D

I have a 4 year old Leon, been parked up all this year thankfully so the repair bills are lower. 110k km, full history and properly looked after. Have about €3k in repair bills that were not standard service items. I genuinely dread to think what the next 110k km would be like to be honest.

unkel wrote: »

What a complete non-story. Ah wait, it's August. VAG isn't buying Alfa Romeo. Period.

Sure didnt FIAT give their 5 year plan a couple of months ago. Alfa is still a very big part of that plan

RobertM

Even though this is just a rumour, IF Alfa was available, I'm pretty sure VW would jump with the cash.

Everyone thinks that if VW bought AR, they would address the reliability issues and build quality, but I can't see why VW would suddenly decide to develop platforms/engines/etc stuff for Alfa.

Would VW put an Alfa badge on a previous A4 ? They're quite happy using Seat that way, even though in 2009 SEAT sold 3 times more units than Alfa.


IMHO the best thing coming out of VAG at the moment is Skoda.

Sandwlch

Remember, Fiat only bought Alfa in the eighties - and it hasnt exactly been an unstinting success.

johnos1984

Sandwlch wrote: »

Remember, Fiat only bought Alfa in the eighties -

With everything that happened surrounding the sale of Alfa to FIAT I doubt they will be seperated very soon.

The government done them a lot of favours

L1011

Alfa is too tightly tied to Fiat to go anywhere - even their "non-Fiat based" cars are based on Fiat's GM licences. Small Alfa's are built alongside their Fiat twins in Fiat plants. They've a unified global distribution network with, primarily, parent company owned national distibutors. And the Italian govt. would have a ****fit.

mickdw

Max Power1 wrote: »

Are you seriously criticising VW's reliability in a pro alfa romeo thread

Well Ive had an alfa & a few audis. The alfa was expensive to keep but reliable all the same.
The older audis Ive had were great cars but some of the new audis are cack tbh. Troublesome & not built great compared to the older ones.

1948Wolseley

Max Power1 wrote: »

Are you seriously criticising VW's reliability in a pro alfa romeo thread

Yes.

alias no.9

VolvoMan wrote: »

I would think the 156 is very loosely based on the Tipo, as you have to bear in mind that there are some ten years between the two cars; a long time in the automotive world. I also know for a fact that they added multilink rear and double wishbone front suspension; something way ahead of the suspension used in the Tipo.

That's the point, that's how Alfa operate, they do their unique thing to some pretty ordinary metal rather than just serving it up as reheated leftovers, like the Seat Exeo. Alfa derivatives sell at a premium compared to the cars they're based on, Seats sell at a discount, that's what makes Alfa an attractive aquisition.

Tea 1000

af_thefragile wrote: »

Many parts in the Lambo are straight out of Audis.
Like the interior in the Gallardo is out of an Audi A8.
And the Audi R8 uses the Gallardo's V10 engine.

And I don't see anything bad with Alfa sharing parts with VW and Audi. They're gonna be much more reliable then Alfa parts.
As long as they let the Italians do the styling, I'll be happy with whatever is underneath the body. Its VAG stuff so it'll be good.

The thing is you're confusing reliability with engineering quality.
Fiat always had some excellently engineered solutions to problems and many excellent engines. Their tractors were class leading, also their diggers, Fiat-Hitachi diggers have Fiat engines in those. A lot of New Holland tractors from certain era are basically Fiats.
The big problem Fiat and Alfa have had in the past is their assembly line. They're just not put together with the passion that went into their design and engineering. Therefore the electrical gremlins kick in, some trim might break off, that sort of crap. In some cases some cheaper components used that wore sooner than rival components would typically wear.

The point is, Fiat are a company full of innovation and inspiring design, as are Alfa, what they lack is the Toyota style assembly. If VW could provide that attitude, they'd solve the Alfa problem, but they'd need to do a joint venture with Fiat, and let the Fiat-ism's still rule the roost. They won't do that, so that's why this merger won't work.
They could and did do that with Lamborghini, and that's why that merger did work.

sean1141

the sister in law worked for an vw dealer and then an alfa dealer. about 15% of the vw's came back for warrenty work but with alfa it was 75%!! i love the looks of the alfas do!! sex on wheels!

Tea drinker

I like VW but I like the look of Alfa better ;-)
My own experience of VW is maybe they don't do enough warranty work, I know getting the cracked and leaking pressurised fuel line spewing petrol all over the catalyst was covered by warranty in USA, but VW refused to cover it in Eire. And the warranty is crap anyway, comapred to likes of Kia etc.

So VW might bring SOME quality, but I wouldn't expect a transformation. As someone already mentioned, I also found VAG gearboxes a bit weak.

tom fada

Hi there EPM,

Slightly off the topic, I have a 4 year old Seat LEON as well and was just wondering what problems you have encountered to date? Touch wood I've been pretty lucky replacing the usual VW crap bits such as the coolant temp sensor, oxygen sensor,heater resistor and the heater blower motor (twice).
This is my fourth VW vehicle, having 3 Golfs previous and I agree that their reputation for reliability is certainly a myth.

EPM

tom fada wrote: »

Hi there EPM,

Slightly off the topic, I have a 4 year old Seat LEON as well and was just wondering what problems you have encountered to date? Touch wood I've been pretty lucky replacing the usual VW crap bits such as the coolant temp sensor, oxygen sensor,heater resistor and the heater blower motor (twice).
This is my fourth VW vehicle, having 3 Golfs previous and I agree that their reputation for reliability is certainly a myth.

I'll send a PM to avoid derailing thread;)

Bluefoam

Its okay! Breath easy...

Chief Executive Sergio Marchionne said Thursday that he won't sell the Italian carmaker's sporty Alfa Romeo brand.

"There are no talks" with Volkswagen AG (VOW.XE), Marchionne said, speaking to journalists after giving a speech to a Catholic youth rally at this eastern Italian beach town.

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20100826-706263.html

king_of_inismac

Without taking this thread off course, I'd like to add my opinion to the VW/AR reliability debate, having owned and repaired both.

Many people on this thread (and elsewhere) have stated that VW are a very reliable brand. A more accurate statement would be that they are "MORE reliable than other marks, including alfa romeo".

The 156 in particular was a beautiful car, but they do a have LOT of issues (far more than I've experienced with any VW). However, if you are anyway handy mechanically, you can fix a lot of them yourself. It would be a nightmare if you had to go to a mechanic everytime something went wrong with your alfa.

Moreover, Alfas are generally a bitch to work on (having to drop the subframe to change the ARB bushings for example).

Conversely, I'd had my share of DMF/Clutch issues with VWs, but RELATIVELY, they're much more reliable.

Bluefoam

I don't know why people keep bringing up the 156. Its hasn't been on sale for 5 years!

Its a beautiful car and I agree it has its issues, but it isn't relevant. The 159 is a superb car, well built and reliable (I know, I drive one) and more imporantly the interior and spec levels are far superior to VW, Audi or BMW. But even it is due to be replaced next year.