Suggestion - what to do when Vendor messes up?

mopsey

Hi all,

I'm hoping someone out there has some advice for me.

We're in the middle of house move, we're ready to close on the sale of our own house and move on, we were due to close on the purchase of the house we wanted to buy. Our solicitor's advised us 2 days before the closing date that the contracts we sent back and signed a few weeks ago, were never signed and returned by the vendor. So I assume that means no official contract in place. I freaked out a bit as I thought this was odd, but our solicitor advised that it was nothing to worry about.

On the basis that this was 'normal' we went ahead with house insurance, life assurance and the money was made available from bank for sale. We were supposed to close yesterday. However the vendor's solicitor refused to take any calls or deal with ours, and refused to fax on any copies of documents.

So at this point we have the mortgage drawn down and everything ready to go, but we don't even have signed copies of the contracts. We have no contact from the vendors, I want to know can we pull out since contracts weren't exchanged or can we serve them with notice to move?

What do you do when they hog the documents and refuse to have any contact? surely there is some recourse here??

Any ideas?

Thanks

mathepac

mopsey wrote: »

... On the basis that this was 'normal' we went ahead with house insurance, life assurance and the money was made available from bank for sale. We were supposed to close yesterday. ...

There is nothing normal about this set of circumstances.

You can't insure a property you don't own, the bank has no security for the funds they have advanced, etc. etc.

mopsey wrote: »

...
So at this point we have the mortgage drawn down and everything ready to go, but we don't even have signed copies of the contracts. We have no contact from the vendors, I want to know can we pull out since contracts weren't exchanged or can we serve them with notice to move?

What do you do when they hog the documents and refuse to have any contact? surely there is some recourse here?? ...

You have drawn down a mortgage on a property you have no title to nor do you have a contract to buy it. I thought this set of circumstances had been tightened up on by the banks since the demise of the Tiger.

How can you serve a property owner with notice to quit their own property?

In the absence of a contract specifying some legal recourse, I can't see what recourse you can have.

What does your solicitor advise?

D3PO

very strange that the bank would allow a drawdown in this circumstance. are you sure the detail in the original post is accurate ?

as for pulling out you cant really if their solicitor has a copy of the contracts you have signed. Id imagine theres a delay their end of the chain and instead of being professional about it their solicitor is playing silly buggers.

mopsey

Well we've been served with notice yesterday by our buyer to move out of our house as we were supposed to close on 23rd. I want to know if we can do the same to the people we're trying to buy off as our closing date for them was the 23rd. Our buyers can do it as they have the signed contracts with both sets of signatures on them. Our solicitors currently only have the contacts for the house we want to buy with only our signatures on them.

So on this basis surely
1. there is no contract in place and we can pull out
2. there is a contract in place, so we can serve notice on them


Spoke to the solicitors this morning and they're now saying that the vendors have 'supposedly' signed the contracts and that they're going to hold them, not send out, but they have changed the closing date til next month, which is pointless for us.

Can they legally hold you to a closing date you didn't agree to?
What an unholy mess :mad:

They had chased us for the contracts, ringing us on holidays, they'd told us they had somewhere to go and were almost fully moved out, now they're saying they're not ready to go anywhere.

mopsey

To get the mortgage we had to show house insurance on where you were buying. Standard practice to have it in place for the day your closing i was told.

As for mortgage the funds are in the solicitors account for yesterday as we were supposed to be closing.
I've no idea where that leaves us with that.

D3PO

if the contract has a closing date on it and its now signed.

Get in contact with their solicitor and tell him you are charging them rent for the month of X amount. Make the figure heavily punitive and see if that changes anything

mopsey

Well in the last few minutes, the contracts signed but with an ammended closing date arrived at our solicitors. As soon as we said we were pulling out, because contracts had not been exchanged, they soon got them there.

Now the closing date has been changed on contract from the 23 of Aug to Mid Sept.

So does that mean now when sept rolls around they have 28 days from Sept bringing them into October? I didnt' think they could just change something like that.

D3PO

they cant change the contract after you have signed it. If they have then the contract is null and void and you can pull out.

i wouldnt take that bullsh*t at all.

Victor

mopsey wrote: »

I want to know can we pull out since contracts weren't exchanged or can we serve them with notice to move?

Its difficult, because they have you signature.

You need to talk to your solicitor.

mopsey

We did speak to our solicitor, seems we have no choice but to accept the new date and of course they can push that out another 28 days from there.

So we're now looking at renting for next 6-7 weeks.

I think people should really be made aware of this and to be very wary if their contracts are not returned signed once you (as purchaser) have signed them. Solicitors can use this to help extend the time for the seller.

We were told through our own solicitor from theirs that they were mostly moved out, all was going to plan for closing on the 23rd when in reality they never had any intention on moving, hence they held off signing the contracts until the closing date in contract had passed, then they added a new one, and then signed, which we're supposedly legally bound to.

They're now saying that they can't move as the seller is looking for somewhere to live, whereas last week they were mostly moved into new home...

Assurances from solicitors etc are worth nothing. if it's not on paper and legally binding, it means nothing. Just because they're professionals does not mean they will tell you the truth. Granted this is NOT the standard, just our bad luck to be dealing with people like this, but there are always devious people out there. BE WARE!

Snakeblood

mopsey wrote: »

Well in the last few minutes, the contracts signed but with an ammended closing date arrived at our solicitors. As soon as we said we were pulling out, because contracts had not been exchanged, they soon got them there.

Now the closing date has been changed on contract from the 23 of Aug to Mid Sept.

So does that mean now when sept rolls around they have 28 days from Sept bringing them into October? I didnt' think they could just change something like that.

How did they manage to change the closing date on the contract? Did they cross off the date that had originally been there?

Treehouse72

mopsey wrote: »

We did speak to our solicitor, seems we have no choice but to accept the new date and of course they can push that out another 28 days from there.

I'm not a lawyer, but this sounds absolutely absurd and I cannot believe your solicitor has told you it's all kosher. The other party cannot change the terms of the contract after you have signed it for crying out loud. Strikes me the contract is entirely null and void.

My advice - walk, bank your equity and rent for 12 months and save yourself tens of thousands of euro as property continue to fall in that time.

Whatever happens, it also strikes me you have no option but to vacate your current property for the new owners - it is not their fault you've had problems and it is almost certain their contract with you is watertight.

D3PO

Treehouse72 wrote: »

I'm not a lawyer, but this sounds absolutely absurd and I cannot believe your solicitor has told you it's all kosher. The other party cannot change the terms of the contract after you have signed it for crying out loud. Strikes me the contract is entirely null and void.
.

exactly. The solicitor sounds clueless. You cannot be bound to modifications in the contract after you sign it. Its absolute bullsh*t

Id be telling them to get the fu*k out today or the sale is off.

mopsey

Would love to say that, but we've been told we'll lose deposit if we do pull out. So that's that.

As for how they can do it, we were told that because they held the contracts and signed only after the date in them was past, that date was no longer valid which meant they could change it. I understand that they sent a letter stating this not actually modifying the contract. It seems that they can change the date before they sign. i think it's ludicrous too.

We've been looking for somewhere to go, and hopefully have found a short term rental, the only person on the ball in this whole mess was our buyer, and it's not fair to them that they're getting screwed too. We're hopefully moving out this wknd once we confirm where we're renting for the next few weeks, so they were held up a week. Couldn't do any better than that, we really thought we were closing in time.

D3PO

mopsey wrote: »

Would love to say that, but we've been told we'll lose deposit if we do pull out. So that's that.

As for how they can do it, we were told that because they held the contracts and signed only after the date in them was past, that date was no longer valid which meant they could change it. I understand that they sent a letter stating this not actually modifying the contract. It seems that they can change the date before they sign. i think it's ludicrous too.

We've been looking for somewhere to go, and hopefully have found a short term rental, the only person on the ball in this whole mess was our buyer, and it's not fair to them that they're getting screwed too. We're hopefully moving out this wknd once we confirm where we're renting for the next few weeks, so they were held up a week. Couldn't do any better than that, we really thought we were closing in time.

none of the above is correct. Seriously your solicitor hasnt got a clue. Id be onto the law council to make a complaint about him/her.

Mary Hairy

What is the "law council". There is no such thing in Ireland.
A closing date is not taken as going to the root of the contracty unless time has been made "of the essence". The risks for the o/p trying the withdraw from the contract are massive. They would have the worry and expense of a court case seeking the return of their deposit, with no guarantee of success.
Closing dates in house sales get moved back constantly. Various parties act up and cause trouble. That is why moving house ranks along with divorce and bereavement as on of the most stressful events in life.
The o/p should make sure that he is not paying interest on the drawn down mortgage at present.

D3PO

Mary Hairy wrote: »

What is the "law council". There is no such thing in Ireland.
.

sigh the bar is know was the law council or if you want to be pedantic the law society. Happy ?

D3PO

Mary Hairy wrote: »

A closing date is not taken as going to the root of the contract .

the fundamental principle is the contract has been modified after it was signed. Doesnt matter if its the date or anything else.

as for the closing date not being root to the contract if that were true the seller could change the date to 2050 for closing and it would be tough sh*t OP your locked in and if you pull out bye bye deposit.

would be a legal way of scamming many a deposit wouldnt it ?? Extreme yes but if yor believe the date isnt a legally binding par tof the contract is possible.

Snakeblood

mopsey wrote: »

We did speak to our solicitor, seems we have no choice but to accept the new date and of course they can push that out another 28 days from there.

So we're now looking at renting for next 6-7 weeks.

I think people should really be made aware of this and to be very wary if their contracts are not returned signed once you (as purchaser) have signed them. Solicitors can use this to help extend the time for the seller.

We were told through our own solicitor from theirs that they were mostly moved out, all was going to plan for closing on the 23rd when in reality they never had any intention on moving, hence they held off signing the contracts until the closing date in contract had passed, then they added a new one, and then signed, which we're supposedly legally bound to.

They're now saying that they can't move as the seller is looking for somewhere to live, whereas last week they were mostly moved into new home...

Assurances from solicitors etc are worth nothing. if it's not on paper and legally binding, it means nothing. Just because they're professionals does not mean they will tell you the truth. Granted this is NOT the standard, just our bad luck to be dealing with people like this, but there are always devious people out there. BE WARE!

Look at your contract, you should have a copy. Is your date on it or what?

Mary Hairy

D3PO wrote: »

sigh the bar is know was the law council or if you want to be pedantic the law society. Happy ?

"the bar is know was the law council"

What sort of nonsense is this. There is the Bar Council and the Law Society. They do not deal with negligence or breach of contract claims which is what you are alleging. The solicitor would have to get Counsels opinion before advising him he could walk from the contract and get his money back. That would cost the o/p more money and he might well be told the same thing.
The wording of any communications passing between the solicitors would have to be examined very carefully to see if there were grounds for the o/p withdrawing. The case law is complex and it would cost several €K for a detailed opinion.

Treehouse72

Mary Hairy wrote: »

"the bar is know was the law council"

What sort of nonsense is this. There is the Bar Council and the Law Society. They do not deal with negligence or breach of contract claims which is what you are alleging. The solicitor would have to get Counsels opinion before advising him he could walk from the contract and get his money back. That would cost the o/p more money and he might well be told the same thing.
The wording of any communications passing between the solicitors would have to be examined very carefully to see if there were grounds for the o/p withdrawing. The case law is complex and it would cost several €K for a detailed opinion.

Huh? The solicitor couldn't make this judgement herself?

godtabh

mopsey wrote: »

I think people should really be made aware of this and to be very wary if their contracts are not returned signed once you (as purchaser) have signed them.

Isnt that what you are paying your solicitor to do? I'd be asking for a reduction of fee as a result of this **** up

running

Yikees this sounds awful - did you get it resolved?

Goesague

Treehouse72 wrote: »

Huh? The solicitor couldn't make this judgement herself?

Look at the case of Park Hall School v Overend 1987 1 IR. The law regarding contracts for the purchase of property is regarded as too complicated for solicitors.

Treehouse72

Goesague wrote: »

Look at the case of Park Hall School v Overend 1987 1 IR. The law regarding contracts for the purchase of property is regarded as too complicated for solicitors.

So, how is it that conveyancing solicitors - the ones who draw up these contracts - can get by without routinely consulting counsel?

the_syco

mopsey wrote: »

As for how they can do it, we were told that because they held the contracts and signed only after the date in them was past, that date was no longer valid which meant they could change it. I understand that they sent a letter stating this not actually modifying the contract. It seems that they can change the date before they sign. i think it's ludicrous too.

Please answer me this: what contract did they sign, for it was not the contract you signed. You signed a contract that specified one date, and they signed a contract with a different date. I am not a lawyer, but would love for your lawyer to explain that one...

Mary Hairy wrote: »

Closing dates in house sales get moved back constantly. Various parties act up and cause trouble. That is why moving house ranks along with divorce and bereavement as on of the most stressful events in life.

Interesting. I would have thought the part I bolded could only happen before one signed. I would also have thought that by the other party changing the date, the contract would be changed, and that they would need the signature of the OP agreeing with the change of date?

Milk & Honey

Treehouse72 wrote: »

So, how is it that conveyancing solicitors - the ones who draw up these contracts - can get by without routinely consulting counsel?

They use standard form contracts. It is when things get complicated that they have to consult counsel.

Milk & Honey

the_syco wrote: »

Please answer me this: what contract did they sign, for it was not the contract you signed. You signed a contract that specified one date, and they signed a contract with a different date. I am not a lawyer, but would love for your lawyer to explain that one...


Interesting. I would have thought the part I bolded could only happen before one signed. I would also have thought that by the other party changing the date, the contract would be changed, and that they would need the signature of the OP agreeing with the change of date?

There was an agreement to sell the property. Unless the contract specifically says that time is of the essence, failure to close on the date is not regarded as a breach. Where the closing does not take place on the day a notice has to be served making time of the essence. There have been High Court cases on this point over the years and it is hard to find consistency in the decisions.
In a residential purchase like this a solicitor would be very slow to let a client get involved in legal action no matter how apparently strong the case is.

mopsey

Well thanks for all the thoughts on this.

It seems that the closing date in the contract is not solid, I understood that. I knew that they could miss it and not be in breach of contract, they could then be served with notice which would give them 28 days to get out or start paying interest on the purchase price of the property.

What I didn't understand was the fact that they could change the closing date on the contract after it had been agreed and signed by us, but as they had not signed it at that point it was not legal contract, so it seems they were able to change it. I have yet to get an answer i'm happy with, but I've come down off the high I was on a few weeks ago. Our sale went through and we moved out.

So the long and short of it is that we moved into short term rented accomodation and are hoping to God they stick to the new date for next wk. If they don't we will be definitely serving them with notice to get moving. I'd nearly hope then they went over the 28 days so they would have to give us some money!

keithclancy

mopsey wrote: »

Well thanks for all the thoughts on this.

It seems that the closing date in the contract is not solid, I understood that. I knew that they could miss it and not be in breach of contract, they could then be served with notice which would give them 28 days to get out or start paying interest on the purchase price of the property.

What I didn't understand was the fact that they could change the closing date on the contract after it had been agreed and signed by us, but as they had not signed it at that point it was not legal contract, so it seems they were able to change it. I have yet to get an answer i'm happy with, but I've come down off the high I was on a few weeks ago. Our sale went through and we moved out.

So the long and short of it is that we moved into short term rented accomodation and are hoping to God they stick to the new date for next wk. If they don't we will be definitely serving them with notice to get moving. I'd nearly hope then they went over the 28 days so they would have to give us some money!

Hi OP,

Something very basic you have to understand about a contract.

There'll be two copies, one you have and one they have.

If the one they have is not the same as yours then its not valid.

Any changes to the contract would at least have to be initialed by both parties (or at a Notary at least they would just redraw the contracts)

I think your Solicitor is pulling the piss because you are being so compliant.

I recommend you contact the other party and ask them for a copy of the contract and ask where this date is stated and see if it corresponds with your contract.