A tribute to Irish Athletics

Pisco Sour

There are literally hundreds of tribute videos on youtube to Irish Rugby, Irish Football, Gaelic Football and Hurling so I thought it is about time that there was a tribute to Irish Athletics up on that website.

So here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zxDRXt--1k

There were a few athletes I couldnt fit into the video (Frank O'Mara, Noel Carroll in particular) because I couldnt find any photos on the net of them.

Anyway enjoy!

P.S. You can really tell how bored I am of studying for my finals right now!!:D

myflipflops

Good stuff.

Great pic of Cragg in there. That's the last time I think we saw him physically and mentally right.

Only thing missing (if it can even be found) is a pic of Costello and Darcy going 1-2 in the Euro Junior 1500 a few years back. Now there were two talented guys!

Pisco Sour

myflipflops wrote: »

Good stuff.

Great pic of Cragg in there. That's the last time I think we saw him physically and mentally right.

Only thing missing (if it can even be found) is a pic of Costello and Darcy going 1-2 in the Euro Junior 1500 a few years back. Now there were two talented guys!

Ahhh the 2 of them completely slipped my mind. Antoine Burke in the World Junior High Jump was another I forgot about. He is after all one of only 2 irish people ever to medal at World Juniors.

Ah cant win 'em all!

letsbefriends

how come hession is in there? i know hes good but hes not up to the likes of all our previous medal winners? if he's gonna be in there then you need roisin mcgettigan and fionnuala britton as well...probably need james nolan who actually won medals too...niall bruton, world student games champ...keith kelly, neil cusack, paul donovan, was frank o mara in there, world indoor champ? ray flynn irish junior and senior record holder?...how come none of these people made it?

frank o mara, paul donovan and james nolan surely deserve to be in there ahead of paul hession..world indoor champ, world indoor silver and a european indoor silver medallist and they doesnt make the video???

just my opinion...james nolan doesnt get the credit he deserves at all and this tribute video proves it;)

Pisco Sour

letsbefriends wrote: »

how come hession is in there? i know hes good but hes not up to the likes of all our previous medal winners? if he's gonna be in there then you need roisin mcgettigan and fionnuala britton as well...probably need james nolan who actually won medals too...niall bruton, world student games champ...keith kelly, neil cusack, paul donovan, was frank o mara in there, world indoor champ? ray flynn irish junior and senior record holder?...how come none of these people made it?

frank o mara, paul donovan and james nolan surely deserve to be in there ahead of paul hession..world indoor champ, world indoor silver and a european indoor silver medallist and they doesnt make the video???

just my opinion...james nolan doesnt get the credit he deserves at all and this tribute video proves it;)

Did you not read my previous post. I said I couldnt find any good pictures of O'Mara and Noel Carroll among others.

Paul Hession has been ranked 12th in the 2007 Worlds, 10th in the 2008 Olympics and 10th in the 2009 Worlds in an event where he is genetically at a massive disadvantage. I think his achievements have been quite astonishing and while he doesnt have a major medal (I'm sure he would if the 200m was part of the Euro Indoors) he is held in much higher esteem on the world stage than the likes of James Nolan, no disrespect to James (his outburst at Jerry Kiernan is still my favourite moment on RTE TV and I think he is a legend because of it )

a_non_a_mouse

nice video clip...

if people don't agree with who's included or not, they are all free to compile their own selections, might just uncover some classic clips not seen for many a long year

TheRoadRunner

letsbefriends wrote: »

just my opinion...james nolan doesnt get the credit he deserves at all and this tribute video proves it;)

Jesus it's not as if he is dishing out awards. Talk about getting the head bitten off ya. This hasn't been commissioned by anyone. I think it's pretty cool even if there are some omissions but I'm looking forward to your 100% complete photo collage in the not too distant future :cool:

Pisco Sour

To be fair to Paul Hession he competes in an event that doesnt exist anymore at Indoor level (and when it did it was farcically unfair due to the unfair advantage of being on the outside lanes). I'm sure Hesh would have won many medals at European Indoor level and maybe even at World Indoor level if the event existed.

At Outdoor level Hesh fully deserves to be in this prestigious video

W.B. Yeats

04072511 wrote: »

To be fair to Paul Hession he competes in an event that doesnt exist anymore at Indoor level (and when it did it was farcically unfair due to the unfair advantage of being on the outdoor lanes). I'm sure Hesh would have won many medals at European Indoor level and maybe even at World Indoor level if the event existed.

At Outdoor level Hesh fully deserves to be in this prestigious video

Off topic but I see you are back on ART having been forced to stop trolling on the GAA forum-an old bugbear of yours if I remember correctly from the European Champs

Back on topic- nice montage of some of the cream of Irish athletics.

Wonder who else we could deem worthy of being world class- wasn't there a woman's Olympic 400 or 800m finalist in LA? Something O'Sullivan....
Did we have a world finalist from Meath in 2000 in the triple jump?
Wasn't O'Dwyer the high jumper also world class?

PDCAT

Wonder who else we could deem worthy of being world class- wasn't there a woman's Olympic 400 or 800m finalist in LA? Something O'Sullivan....

I think it was 800m in LA. Was or name Caroline O Shea?

Or am i dreaming.

Also John Doherty - Good 5,000 Meter runner in his day.

Pisco Sour

W.B. Yeats wrote: »

Off topic but I see you are back on ART having been forced to stop trolling on the GAA forum-an old bugbear of yours if I remember correctly from the European Champs

I was not trolling on the GAA forum. I started a discussion asking a valid question, then the whole thread spiralled out of control. The mod even said I wasnt trolling as the thread was closed.

And I have never trolled on this forum ever (nor any forum for that matter), especially during the European Championships (Sure I was over in Barca for them).

Such accusations! :eek:

Pisco Sour

W.B. Yeats wrote: »

Back on topic- nice montage of some of the cream of Irish athletics.

Wonder who else we could deem worthy of being world class- wasn't there a woman's Olympic 400 or 800m finalist in LA? Something O'Sullivan....
Did we have a world finalist from Meath in 2000 in the triple jump?
Wasn't O'Dwyer the high jumper also world class?

Caroline O'Shea came 7th or 8th in the LA Games. Regina Joyce I think it was came 7th in the 1983 World Championships in the Marathon.

I dont ever remember anybody doing well for Ireland in the triple jump. Brendan Reilly came 8th in the 99 Worlds in the High Jump though if that is who you are thinking of?

Adrian O'Dwyer was a waste of talent and achieved nothing of note, so does not really deserve to be in this video. He just dissappeared off the face of the earth after Athens! So dissappointing. He could have been amazing!

W.B. Yeats

04072511 wrote: »

Caroline O'Shea came 7th or 8th in the LA Games. Regina Joyce I think it was came 7th in the 1983 World Championships in the Marathon.

I dont ever remember anybody doing well for Ireland in the triple jump. Brendan Reilly came 8th in the 99 Worlds in the High Jump though if that is who you are thinking of?

Adrian O'Dwyer was a waste of talent and achieved nothing of note, so does not really deserve to be in this video. He just dissappeared off the face of the earth after Athens! So dissappointing. He could have been amazing!

Google is a great invention
My bad: Ciaran McDonagh made world long jump final in 1999, came 10th

Adrian O'Dwyer has a PB of 2.30- I'd have thought a world class level. I wonder what he's up to now?

Pisco Sour

W.B. Yeats wrote: »

Adrian O'Dwyer has a PB of 2.30- I'd have thought a world class level. I wonder what he's up to now?

Indeed, a 2.30 back in 2004. A world class jump it is, but hardly a world class athlete. What has he achieved to be called world class?

Would love to know what happened to him after Athens. I remember him being very down after the Olympics and said he needed time out from the sport. Guess he never really came back properly. I've heard of him competing in provincial events or something like that but nothing near the level he should have been at which is contending for major medals.

W.B. Yeats

04072511 wrote: »

I was not trolling on the GAA forum. I started a discussion asking a valid question, then the whole thread spiralled out of control. The mod even said I wasnt trolling as the thread was closed.

And I have never trolled on this forum ever (nor any forum for that matter), especially during the European Championships (Sure I was over in Barca for them).

Such accusations! :eek:

Come off it....
If someone from the GAA forum came over here and posted something similar it would be trolling, so that cuts both ways.

You did have a go at the GAA post Barcelona, I remember it annoyed me at the time and then I read your post in the GAA forum and it came back to me again.

Stupid_Private

04072511 wrote: »

Would love to know what happened to him after Athens. I remember him being very down after the Olympics and said he needed time out from the sport. Guess he never really came back properly. I've heard of him competing in provincial events or something like that but nothing near the level he should have been at which is contending for major medals.

Irish National Indoors this year

Pisco Sour

W.B. Yeats wrote: »

Come off it....
If someone from the GAA forum came over here and posted something similar it would be trolling, so that cuts both ways.

You did have a go at the GAA post Barcelona, I remember it annoyed me at the time and then I read your post in the GAA forum and it came back to me again.

I dont think it says anywhere in the forum rules that you have to be a die-hard fan of a particular sport to post on a particular forum. I read an interesting article on Grainne Murphy which made references to the GAA and I agreed with it and felt that the question was valid, and wanted to know what people in the GAA community thought. Some of the reactions were crazy. Nowhere on that thread did I diss the GAA, the players or anything. I simply asked the question are the GAA players overrated in light of the recent article. Some people were not so civil in their responses. It was a valid question. I'm fully entitled to go onto a GAA forum and ask a question which is related to GAA. If people dont agree then they can disagree, or they can just not read it. I believe there were some people on that forum who actually agreed with me in fact.

Anyway lets not get into that again!

W.B. Yeats

Stupid_Private wrote: »

Irish National Indoors this year

I wonder is he in it for real competition or just for recreation.
He seemed to have bucket loads of talent and he'd still be young enough

04072511 wrote: »

I dont think it says anywhere in the forum rules that you have to be a die-hard fan of a particular sport to post on a particular forum. I read an interesting article on Grainne Murphy which made references to the GAA and I agreed with it and felt that the question was valid, and wanted to know what people in the GAA community thought. Some of the reactions were crazy. Nowhere on that thread did I diss the GAA, the players or anything. I simply asked the question are the GAA players overrated in light of the recent article. Some people were not so civil in their responses. It was a valid question. I'm fully entitled to go onto a GAA forum and ask a question which is related to GAA. If people dont agree then they can disagree, or they can just not read it. I believe there were some people on that forum who actually agreed with me in fact.

Anyway lets not get into that again!

If I hadn't remembered your previous posts on the GAA I'd have taken your post at face value. Anyway we'll agree to disagree. I'm off to bed.

Enjoyed your youtube though so here's to many more montages of Ireland's great athletes.

Pisco Sour

W.B. Yeats wrote: »

I wonder is he in it for real competition or just for recreation.
He seemed to have bucket loads of talent and he'd still be young enough




If I hadn't remembered your previous posts on the GAA I'd have taken your post at face value. Anyway we'll agree to disagree. I'm off to bed.

Enjoyed your youtube though so here's to many more montages of Ireland's great athletes.

Well I admit my previous comments on the Barcelona thread which made reference to the GAA were more in the heat of the moment, from the frustration of not seeing Derval on the front of the Irish sports sections of the sunday papers after winning her silver medal.

But todays posts were very fair and I didnt say a bad thing about the GAA.

Pisco Sour

Stupid_Private wrote: »

Irish National Indoors this year

What sort of jumps is he putting in these days?

thirtyfoot

04072511 wrote: »

What sort of jumps is he putting in these days?

http://www.athleticsireland.ie/content/wp-content/uploads/2006/05/irish-indoor-results.pdf

Jumped 2.10 at indoors. Has been training and was attempting a comeback. The competition at indoors was a cracker between him, Kourosh and Barry Pender with Pender coming out of top after Kourosh cleared an early height with his baseball cap on (could even have been on backwards). O' Dwyer is a class act and is very encouraging to the younger guys. An enormous talent. A thundering disgrace that he was let slip through the net so easily.

Teej

Really enjoyable video - thanks OP.

If you're taking suggestions for a Part 2 I nominate Nick Sweeney (World Student Games medalist, Olympic & World final -think 6th in Worlds?) or Terry McHugh (also made world, euro finals & I think holds world record for consecutive domestic championships) & I always consider Mary Peters Irish.

Pisco Sour

Teej wrote: »

Really enjoyable video - thanks OP.

If you're taking suggestions for a Part 2 I nominate Nick Sweeney (World Student Games medalist, Olympic & World final -think 6th in Worlds?) or Terry McHugh (also made world, euro finals & I think holds world record for consecutive domestic championships) & I always consider Mary Peters Irish.

I didnt forget Nick. I just couldnt find any good pics of him. He also came 4th in the 1994 Europeans to go along with his 6th in the 1993 Worlds. Surely our most successful male field athlete in recent times?

letsbefriends

i went and read that thread you started on the gaa forum....their ignorance is just shocking but im not surprised...i could go into further details of my own opinion but ill just say that i agree with you...gaa was never, is not and never will be within an arse's roar of any olympic sport in terms of difficulty to reach the top, talent required to do so, dedication required to so or even its validity on an international stage...pity those fools are just too blind to see the truth...well done on posting that thread IMO

thirtyfoot

letsbefriends wrote: »

i went and read that thread you started on the gaa forum....their ignorance is just shocking but im not surprised...i could go into further details of my own opinion but ill just say that i agree with you...gaa was never, is not and never will be within an arse's roar of any olympic sport in terms of difficulty to reach the top, talent required to do so, dedication required to so or even its validity on an international stage...pity those fools are just too blind to see the truth...well done on posting that thread IMO

There are a 1,000,000 members of the GAA. There are 30,000 of AAI. Are you saying that all the most talented athletes with the most dedication and drive etc etc all by chance congregate in that 30,000. Thats a pretty good return.

Lets say we have 6 truly world class athletes. A similar percentage in GAA terms would see 200 world class athletes. I think its reasonable to think there are a few Rob Heffernans and Derval O' Rourkes in the GAA world with similar drive and work ethic. Just because its GAA doesn't mean its bet out of them.

If we want our sport to progress, lets not knock others (unless its golf). Get our own house in order. There are many things done within the GAA that athletics could learn from whether its athlete welfare, competition structure, promotion etc etc. Its interesting that most of the best coaches in athletics end up coaching GAA. I wonder why?

W.B. Yeats

Tingle wrote: »

There are a 1,000,000 members of the GAA. There are 30,000 of AAI. Are you saying that all the most talented athletes with the most dedication and drive etc etc all by chance congregate in that 30,000. Thats a pretty good return.

Lets say we have 6 truly world class athletes. A similar percentage in GAA terms would see 200 world class athletes. I think its reasonable to think there are a few Rob Heffernans and Derval O' Rourkes in the GAA world with similar drive and work ethic. Just because its GAA doesn't mean its bet out of them.

If we want our sport to progress, lets not knock others (unless its golf). Get our own house in order. There are many things done within the GAA that athletics could learn from whether its athlete welfare, competition structure, promotion etc etc. Its interesting that most of the best coaches in athletics end up coaching GAA. I wonder why?

A reasonable and balanced post
I don't get the mentality where people feel the need to put down another sport. Each to their own is my view.

As a recent enough convert to participating in athletics* I think there is a generally poor job done of promoting the sport to general public.
~6000 people took part in the 10 miler over the weekend, add all those that came along to watch and you have a figure of somewhere between 8-10k. How did athletics ireland use the event as a means to generate publicity for athletics? The media love to publish stories that fill pages, how many great stories went unreported from the event because the athletics community didn't tell them and make them easy to be reported on and told? This shouldn't be perceived as a criticism of this particular event- just an observation- as it was largely organised by volunteers. But compare the coverage to what a league of ireland game gets where the attendance might be a 1000.

The reality is that its incumbent on us to market our sport and not to expect the media to do the job for us. We have to give them the stories, make them interesting, make them easy to report - have a look at the amount of stuff in the papers that is lifted directly from press releases to get a sense for what passes for journalism.

*it may be stretching it to call my plodding around the roads "athletics" or sport

RoyMcC

W.B. Yeats wrote: »

The reality is that its incumbent on us to market our sport and not to expect the media to do the job for us. We have to give them the stories, make them interesting, make them easy to report - have a look at the amount of stuff in the papers that is lifted directly from press releases to get a sense for what passes for journalism.

Couldn't agree more but you wonder if the public will ever be enticed to watch athletics rather than participate. That big Morton Mile meet last year (or the year before?) was heavily trailed but the attendance was very disappointing.

Not only Ireland either. Last Saturday Guernsey staged a Div.4 British Athletics League match. I was raking a pit thinking what a low-key affair it was with only a sprinkling of spectators. Afterwards the BAL Promotions Officer said it was 'a great atmosphere with the best attendance of any BAL match this year.' That would include Div.1 with Belgraves, Woodford Green, Newham etc. Both TV companies were there and reported it quite well, but it won't attract any more people next time.

Pisco Sour

Tingle wrote: »

There are a 1,000,000 members of the GAA. There are 30,000 of AAI. Are you saying that all the most talented athletes with the most dedication and drive etc etc all by chance congregate in that 30,000. Thats a pretty good return.

Lets say we have 6 truly world class athletes. A similar percentage in GAA terms would see 200 world class athletes. I think its reasonable to think there are a few Rob Heffernans and Derval O' Rourkes in the GAA world with similar drive and work ethic. Just because its GAA doesn't mean its bet out of them.

If we want our sport to progress, lets not knock others (unless its golf). Get our own house in order. There are many things done within the GAA that athletics could learn from whether its athlete welfare, competition structure, promotion etc etc. Its interesting that most of the best coaches in athletics end up coaching GAA. I wonder why?

I agree that there are many Rob Heffernans out there in the GAA World right now and if the GAA didnt exist you would see Ireland winning a lot more Olympic medals in various sports (different discussion altogether though).

What I was questioning is are they overrated based on their achievements in the GAA, i believe they are, and the responses in the thread proved that.

You had guys saying that a Celtic-Cross winner will always be seen as more recognisable and marketable in Ireland than an Olympic Gold medal winner. Makes no sense, Everybody knows who Ronnie Delaney is. On the otherhand there has been so many who have won All Ireland Medals, something like 44 people a year (22 for each code approx). Half these guys nobody would have ever heard about. My Grandfather won an All Ireland Hurling medal. Nobody knows who he is!

You had another guy who said nobody trains as hard as people who tog out for their county team. How can somebody be so deluded!

You even had some guy putting Henry Shefflin up there in the same bracket of sporting greatness as Michael Jordon FFS! One of the most iconic sportspeople of all time. You cant make this stuff up!

I have nothing against the guys who play GAA. They put a lot in, and some of them are extremely talented, but I believe their achievements are hyped up no end. In most sports getting to the top of Ireland is seen as the beginning. In GAA it is the pinnacle.

Pisco Sour

Tingle wrote: »

(unless its golf)

Why is it ok to knock Golf?

W.B. Yeats

RoyMcC wrote: »

Couldn't agree more but you wonder if the public will ever be enticed to watch athletics rather than participate. That big Morton Mile meet last year (or the year before?) was heavily trailed but the attendance was very disappointing.

Not only Ireland either. Last Saturday Guernsey staged a Div.4 British Athletics League match. I was raking a pit thinking what a low-key affair it was with only a sprinkling of spectators. Afterwards the BAL Promotions Officer said it was 'a great atmosphere with the best attendance of any BAL match this year.' That would include Div.1 with Belgraves, Woodford Green, Newham etc. Both TV companies were there and reported it quite well, but it won't attract any more people next time.

An interesting conundrum here- loads of sports would like to transfer spectator numbers to participation while we seem to have good participiation numbers with low spectating numbers.

At the highest level for sure there is a major perception problem where joe soap questions whether supreme performance is being aided or fueled by some performance enhancing substance
This makes the sport difficult to market- however look at the job the TdeF do on marketing that crazy event which has a terrible recent history of doping. They lost their main TV coverage in Germany I think a few years back and have marketed themselves as having taken very positive steps to eliminate drug use as a result- whether this is the case or not is another story.

This all comes back to asking what does the consumer want? Do they want to see more short fast races on TV vs field sports or vice versa? We need to work out what they want, and then offer this to them. Cricket has changed its "product" (I hate that word when used in a sporting context) dramatically over the past few years with great results. They've at least maintained and probably grown and broadened their spectator base with the success of 20:20. What's our 20:20 or do we even need a 20:20?

Pisco Sour

W.B. Yeats wrote: »

What's our 20:20 or do we even need a 20:20?

The idea of Bolt V Bekele would have been a great opporunity to market the sport.

One thing that annoys me is that people who dont follow the sport thinking everyone is on drugs, when we know full well that is not even close to being true. I guess the only way for the IAAF to promote the sport among these ignorant people is to stop testing the athletes and therefore there would be no positive drug tests therefore no scandels therefore less people being put off by media sensationalism.

thirtyfoot

W.B. Yeats wrote: »

As a recent enough convert to participating in athletics* I think there is a generally poor job done of promoting the sport to general public.
~6000 people took part in the 10 miler over the weekend, add all those that came along to watch and you have a figure of somewhere between 8-10k. How did athletics ireland use the event as a means to generate publicity for athletics? The media love to publish stories that fill pages, how many great stories went unreported from the event because the athletics community didn't tell them and make them easy to be reported on and told? This shouldn't be perceived as a criticism of this particular event- just an observation- as it was largely organised by volunteers. But compare the coverage to what a league of ireland game gets where the attendance might be a 1000.

The reality is that its incumbent on us to market our sport and not to expect the media to do the job for us. We have to give them the stories, make them interesting, make them easy to report - have a look at the amount of stuff in the papers that is lifted directly from press releases to get a sense for what passes for journalism.

*it may be stretching it to call my plodding around the roads "athletics" or sport

Despite what people believe, athletics gets a reasonable deal from the media. Believe it or not, in 2010 there is going to be more hours of coverage for athletics on RTE than horse racing. Yes, might seem like rubbish but its true.

Also, the media rightly won't pick up every press release. There is probably between 150-200 press releases in a year from the AAI. Not all will hit. When Derval or Gillick or others are in the press release it will hit. There will be press releases on all levels of the sport from juvenile to elite. A nice photo will sometimes help the hit or even the angle you work but it can be difficult to get into the press unless its newsworthy.

Derval got good coverage and she always will as she is so engaging. She was on most sports radio shows, on the drive times, Ray Darcy, on TV with Miriam O' Callaghan. I think athletics does well as regards profile in the media and the Irish people have historically always had a gra for it even if they don't follow it religiously.

As RoyMc says you can't expect blanket coverage of an event when only a couple of thousand turn up to a free event with top athletes in Santry a few years back or even to our national champs each year. The best way to build a base (and copy the GAA) would be to build on our domestic competitions. How many people here spectate at the national indoors or national cross or national outdoors. A minority I would say. If we started getting more support here we would build the base. A packed Odyessey would make great TV. So build at the base. But then some people will give out and complain about our top athletes being 'forced' to compete at nationals. You can't have one and not the other. Build the foundations, get a real base going at home, get more athletes competing, bigger competitions, more TV and media will follow as a consequence and there we go.

Bottom line for me. If people want our sport to be supported more (in the media) then support it first ourselves where it needs it most and thats at the grassroots level. Then, when we have that sorted we may be able to compete with the GAA for column inches.

shels4ever

04072511 wrote: »

I agree that there are many Rob Heffernans out there in the GAA World right now and if the GAA didnt exist you would see Ireland winning a lot more Olympic medals in various sports (different discussion altogether though).

I don't agree with that at all, The GAA was around in the 70's 80's 90's but didnt stop Coghaln, Tracy , Flyn, O'mara, O'Sullican etc from coming through . More a case of getting rid of the school suv drops and Xbox...Kids have it too easy

thirtyfoot

W.B. Yeats wrote: »

This all comes back to asking what does the consumer want? Do they want to see more short fast races on TV vs field sports or vice versa? We need to work out what they want, and then offer this to them. Cricket has changed its "product" (I hate that word when used in a sporting context) dramatically over the past few years with great results. They've at least maintained and probably grown and broadened their spectator base with the success of 20:20. What's our 20:20 or do we even need a 20:20?

Michael Johnson had thoughts on this. Allow athlete individual sponsorship at majors - Bolt could wear Puma or whatever at worlds. Also have various other sponsors if he wished. It would bring more sponsors into the sport. Right now the National Federations get the sponsorship benefit at a majors.

Also, I think he said any race greater than 5k should be held outside a stadium. Also, less focus on times, more on head to head battles. Whats the point of Bolt running 9.5 in Paris and Gay 9.6 in Milan on the same weekend or a train of East Africans hammering around to a pacemaker in a diamond league meet.

richydaathlete

o'dwyer was a super competitor. he did little high jump training due to the works at scanlon. In the world indoor final he clipped the bar with his calf after clearing it by 2" with the rest of his body. a cardinal sin for a highjumper. Imagine a cork hurling team not practicing and still winning the all ireland or derval not hurdling. what a competitor but how