BBC Coast : Ireland in WWII

Ponster

I recently saw an episode of Coast where they spoke about huge stone markers, located around the country to be used as guidance points for US & RAF flyers.


Here is an example at Malin Head :





Does anyone know if these have official names, if there are any left intact and where it possible could I get a list of their locations?

Ponster

Here's a clip from the episode for those who didn't see it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phv3HoxH1qs

ejmaztec

I couldn't believe how the programme bent over backwards to try and prove that Ireland was basically pretending to be neutral during WW2.

Tordelback

I'm very dubious about this idea. The EIRE signs themselves were an effort to notify pilots that they were over a neutral country and not to bomb targets, but I can't believe that a weekend's scouting wouldn't have made the 'secret numbers' just as useable by the Germans. They had maps, and Irish allies.

OP, there are plenty of them left, along with the little concrete watching posts, but I'm not sure if there's a published guide to tehir locations. A good example is Downpatrick Head near Ballycastle, Co. Mayo. Michael Kennedy's book "Guarding Neutral Ireland" about the Coast Watch service might a good starting point.

Ponster

Tordelback wrote: »

I'm very dubious about this idea. The EIRE signs themselves were an effort to notify pilots that they were over a neutral country and not to bomb targets, but I can't believe that a weekend's scouting wouldn't have made the 'secret numbers' just as useable by the Germans. They had maps, and Irish allies.

I agree but,

1. What was the point in numbering them then?

2. Would the west of Ireland been at risk of being mistaken by planes on bombing runs?

BarryM

There is one near Baltimore in West Cork, close to Spain Castle, the number is 026, I think.

There are fokelore stories around here that the Middle Calf island in RoaringWater Bay was an emergency landing strip in WWII - it certainly looks like one from the Western end, but I think it is just the way the land lies between two higher pieces of land. If it was how would it have been illuminated in case anyone wanted to land??

Bye, Barry

brianthebard

Moved per request.

gizmo555

There's one on Dursey Island, off the tip of the Beara Peninsula in West Cork.

finty

Tordelback wrote: »

I'm very dubious about this idea. The EIRE signs themselves were an effort to notify pilots that they were over a neutral country and not to bomb targets, but I can't believe that a weekend's scouting wouldn't have made the 'secret numbers' just as useable by the Germans. They had maps, and Irish allies.

According to the programme they weren't numbered until the preparations for D-day by which time the luftwaffe wasn't really a credible force and was primarily interested in protecting airspace over mainland europe

In this case I'm sure these numbered signs would be a useful navigation tool for the allies and not much use to the Germans.

tricky D

ejmaztec wrote: »

I couldn't believe how the programme bent over backwards to try and prove that Ireland was basically pretending to be neutral during WW2.

Weel, there's at least two other matters which point to us being a bit less than neutral:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donegal_Corridor

and

Neutral Ireland's secret war

snickers

These signs were not really that big would they have been that much of a help at what altitude would these planes of been at and what is the chances of flying over the exact location of one of these signs .

shayno90

It was repeated again last night.

Was quite impressed with the communications tower Bianconi had set up in Clifden over 100 years.

Very scenic along the west/northwest coast.

OldPeculier

Yeah I saw it too, fascinating!
The Bianconi setup was amazing, pity there wasn't more of the original site preserved, it would be an big and impressive tourist draw!

shayno90

The view of the drumlins on Clew bay was fantastic as well although you need a good weather for it, missed out on it the last time I climbed Croagh Patrick.

Strange RTE never came up with such a programme concept to explore Ireland's coast as done in this BBC programme.

Was impressed with the RNLI and Coast guard, deserve great credit and respect for their daily role in helping those who get into trouble while travelling in the Atlantic Ocean.

BarryM

OldPeculier wrote: »

Yeah I saw it too, fascinating!
The Bianconi setup was amazing, pity there wasn't more of the original site preserved, it would be an big and impressive tourist draw!

Should be Marconi, he sent the first paid transatlantic radio messages from there.

FiSe

Ponster wrote: »

I agree but,

1. What was the point in numbering them then?

2. Would the west of Ireland been at risk of being mistaken by planes on bombing runs?

Shortly:
Those 'markers' were constructed near LOP's - or Look out post - manned 24/7 by 'coastwatchers'.
Every LOP had a number starting with 1 on Ballagan Head the East Coats and finishing with, I believe 83 on Feaklecally in Donegall. - not sure as I have seen a photograph of Baldonnel with EIRE sign in the middle and large 'I' above
These were put in on request of USAF to help lost planes ferried from US of A to gather their bearings.
Sure LW could see those signs too, but they would have to know the meaning of the accompanying numbers above the 'EIRE' sign

Anyway, above mentioned book 'Guarding Neutral Ireland' by Michael Kennedy is incredible source and has all the answers. And it's easy to read too.

A Country Voice

Tordelback wrote: »

I'm very dubious about this idea. The EIRE signs themselves were an effort to notify pilots that they were over a neutral country and not to bomb targets, but I can't believe that a weekend's scouting wouldn't have made the 'secret numbers' just as useable by the Germans. They had maps, and Irish allies.

OP, there are plenty of them left, along with the little concrete watching posts, but I'm not sure if there's a published guide to tehir locations. A good example is Downpatrick Head near Ballycastle, Co. Mayo. Michael Kennedy's book "Guarding Neutral Ireland" about the Coast Watch service might a good starting point.

BarryM wrote: »

There is one near Baltimore in West Cork, close to Spain Castle, the number is 026, I think.

There are fokelore stories around here that the Middle Calf island in RoaringWater Bay was an emergency landing strip in WWII - it certainly looks like one from the Western end, but I think it is just the way the land lies between two higher pieces of land. If it was how would it have been illuminated in case anyone wanted to land??

Bye, Barry

gizmo555 wrote: »

There's one on Dursey Island, off the tip of the Beara Peninsula in West Cork.

Hi Guys,
I find the ordnance survey website very handy for things like this.
I managed to find the sign at malin head. You'll be able to see it from the air.
www.osi.ie
If you go to the map viewer, and click on search, and search by co-ordinate, then enter the two 6 digit numbers, x 639809 and y 959665 the red cross in the middle of the map will be the location of the sign. Click on ortho 2005 on the right hand side to see an aerial view from around 2004 or 2005 and there it'll be.
You can move the cursor anywhere in the country and the itm coordinate will be displayed in the bottom left corner of the map.
I couldn't find the ones in bold above, if any of you know their locations and can find them on the osi mapviewer ye should put up the coordinates here so we can all find them.
Also if theres anything else thats interesting to view from the air, let us know


Thanks
ACV

ejmaztec

A Country Voice wrote: »

Hi Guys,
I find the ordnance survey website very handy for things like this.
I managed to find the sign at malin head. You'll be able to see it from the air.
www.osi.ie
If you go to the map viewer, and click on search, and search by co-ordinate, then enter the two 6 digit numbers, x 639809 and y 959665 the red cross in the middle of the map will be the location of the sign. Click on ortho 2005 on the right hand side to see an aerial view from around 2004 or 2005 and there it'll be.
You can move the cursor anywhere in the country and the itm coordinate will be displayed in the bottom left corner of the map.
I couldn't find the ones in bold above, if any of you know their locations and can find them on the osi mapviewer ye should put up the coordinates here so we can all find them.
Also if theres anything else thats interesting to view from the air, let us know


Thanks
ACV

Or even just click on this link:P

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,639807,959634,7,0

gizmo555

A Country Voice wrote: »

I couldn't find the ones in bold above, if any of you know their locations and can find them on the osi mapviewer ye should put up the coordinates here so we can all find them.

The Dursey Island one is just visible in Google Earth, to the west of the ruined 19th C signal tower at 51 deg 35.737' N, 10 deg. 12.415' W.

You'll have to zoom in a lot to see it, it's semi-concealed in grass now. It consists of the word "EIRE" bounded by a rectangular box. I don't remember seeing a number when I was on the island about 12 years ago, nor can I see one in Google Earth.

[EDIT - by the way, just across Dursey Sound on the mainland, a Luftwaffe JU-88 on a meteorological flight crashed on 23/07/1943, killing all on board. There is a commemorative website here.]

A Country Voice

thanks gizmo555,

I've managed to find the dursey island one with your help.

its at 447101, 540427 on the osi mapviewer.

Anyone have any more detailed info on the location of any of the others?
Baltimore? Downpatrick head? or any of the others?

Thanks ACV

museologist

ejmaztec wrote: »

I couldn't believe how the programme bent over backwards to try and prove that Ireland was basically pretending to be neutral during WW2.

Ireland WAS pretending to be neutral during the war, especially from 1941/1942 onwards, especially in the strict definition of the term. There was a massive difference between public perception and the reality on this issue and by January 1945 the Irish Government had even agreed to the construction of a radar station to help counter U-boat activity.

gbee

ejmaztec wrote: »

I couldn't believe how the programme bent over backwards to try and prove that Ireland was basically pretending to be neutral during WW2.

We were never neutral and we assisted both sides. Hitler's bombing of Dublin was a reminder to Dev that Ireland was being more neutral to the Allies and to cop on or else.

museologist

gbee wrote: »

We were never neutral and we assisted both sides. Hitler's bombing of Dublin was a reminder to Dev that Ireland was being more neutral to the Allies and to cop on or else.

Our assistance was totally slanted toward the Allies and we didn't provide any aid to the Axis, contrary to anti-Irish neutrality propaganda in the Allied media at the time. I think this one of the reasons they made such a big deal about it in the programme. There has been much speculation as to why Dublin was bombed - the reason you cite is one of the more popular theories - but it could have been a genuine accident also.

ejmaztec

gbee wrote: »

We were never neutral and we assisted both sides. Hitler's bombing of Dublin was a reminder to Dev that Ireland was being more neutral to the Allies and to cop on or else.

museologist wrote: »

Our assistance was totally slanted toward the Allies and we didn't provide any aid to the Axis, contrary to anti-Irish neutrality propaganda in the Allied media at the time. I think this one of the reasons they made such a big deal about it in the programme. There has been much speculation as to why Dublin was bombed - the reason you cite is one of the more popular theories - but it could have been a genuine accident also.

A slight difference of opinion here.:)

An old uncle of mine was assigned to supervising internees up at the Curragh, and he was telling me that the Germans and British internees were treated equally, which was fair enough under the rules of law. He actually escorted the two groups to the pub on a regular basis, where they all mixed together over a few drinks. It seems that not all of the alles were spirited away across the border, and were quite happy to sit out the war.

museologist

ejmaztec wrote: »

A slight difference of opinion here.:)

An old uncle of mine was assigned to supervising internees up at the Curragh, and he was telling me that the Germans and British internees were treated equally, which was fair enough under the rules of law. He actually escorted the two groups to the pub on a regular basis, where they all mixed together over a few drinks. It seems that not all of the alles were spirited away across the border, and were quite happy to sit out the war.

Allowed to go to the pub together? A fine example of even-handed friendly neutrality!

I wonder how the conversation went?

museologist

gbee wrote: »

You are sixteen?

No. Why do you ask?

alanmcqueen

museologist wrote: »

Allowed to go to the pub together? A fine example of even-handed friendly neutrality!

I wonder how the conversation went?

Well this might help; they made a film about it:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brylcreem-Boys-DVD-Billy-Campbell/dp/B00004CZRY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1322173657&sr=8-1

museologist

alanmcqueen wrote: »

Well this might help; they made a film about it:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brylcreem-Boys-DVD-Billy-Campbell/dp/B00004CZRY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1322173657&sr=8-1

Great stuff, thanks for this.

dwyerkev

I have tried without success to get the Tourism people on Valentia Island to expose the EIRE sign on Bray Head at the western end of the island and uploaded the following for them www.kevindwyer.ie/eire

Morlar

dwyerkev wrote: »

I have tried without success to get the Tourism people on Valentia Island to expose the EIRE sign on Bray Head at the western end of the island and uploaded the following for them www.kevindwyer.ie/eire

Excellent work there, thanks for posting that.

Ponster

dwyerkev wrote: »

I have tried without success to get the Tourism people on Valentia Island to expose the EIRE sign on Bray Head at the western end of the island and uploaded the following for them www.kevindwyer.ie/eire

Not something that a group of people could do without local council approval I guess?

FiSe

If it's on privately owned land, it would be up to the owner of the turf I guess?

BTW I've heard that the 'Eire sign' was, as well, located on Loop Head and that there is a plan to restore almost derelict LOP hut and the sign as a part of the light house tour. But could have got that one wrong, so don't quote me on that...

Calina

I hope it's okay to post in this thread (I'm forum wandering because the information about this is spread out across forums rather than anywhere else).

I'm in the process of locating as many of the EIRE markings as still exist (for a given value of exist) on satellite maps. I've some preliminary work done on both google maps and Bing maps and am also looking at the OSI maps. I will also look at talking to their aerial photography division about this.

I've located 13-14 on a map - it happens to be a Bing map because the resolution coverage for some key areas in the west of Ireland on google is not adequate. The Bing coverage is actually better for the country as a whole with the exception of Loop Head in Clare (so far).

I have a blog entry here and thanks to this thread I have located the remnants of the one on Valentia which I was unable to find. There's a link to the Bing map there but you need to go to the larger version of the map to pick up the pushpins. From that point of view, Bing isn't as helpful as google. Chief advantage is they have the map detail for more areas.

One of the things which is interesting me a lot at the moment is the direction of the lettering. Most of them are pointing somewhere between NE and SE which, in addition to the numbering acting as a location aid, suggests to me that they may also have had navigational aid capabilities.

There is an interesting site of the actual lookout post buildings at www.lookoutpost.com which I have used as a starting point for a lot of the EIRE signs.

Most of the information I have about still existing EIRE signs points to signs on the west coast. IF anyone is aware of signs still existing on the east coast, that would be great too.

Thanks in advance.

BarryM

A Country Voice wrote: »

thanks gizmo555,

I've managed to find the dursey island one with your help.

its at 447101, 540427 on the osi mapviewer.

Anyone have any more detailed info on the location of any of the others?
Baltimore? Downpatrick head? or any of the others?

Thanks ACV

If you try to find aerial views of parts of the Baltimore area on the OSI site you cannot!! I have asked them several times why the area around the "Beacon Point" and parts of Sherkin Island are missing - but never got an answer - maybe the aerial photo was scrapped?? It is the subject of great jokes on Sherkin as to who arranged for it to be deleted....

B

BarryM

Calina wrote: »

I have a blog entry here and thanks to this thread I have located the remnants of the one on Valentia which I was unable to find. There's a link to the Bing map there but you need to go to the larger version of the map to pick up the pushpins. From that point of view, Bing isn't as helpful as google. Chief advantage is they have the map detail for more areas.

One of the things which is interesting me a lot at the moment is the direction of the lettering. Most of them are pointing somewhere between NE and SE which, in addition to the numbering acting as a location aid, suggests to me that they may also have had navigational aid capabilities.

There is an interesting site of the actual lookout post buildings at www.lookoutpost.com which I have used as a starting point for a lot of the EIRE signs.

Most of the information I have about still existing EIRE signs points to signs on the west coast. IF anyone is aware of signs still existing on the east coast, that would be great too.

Thanks in advance.

There a rather old, but doesn't matter for your purposes, survey done in 2003 as part of a review of coastal erosion with sideways views of the whole coast of Ireland from a helicopter.

Here is the location for Baltimore - http://www.coastalhelicopterview.ie/imf5104/imf.jsp?site=Helicopter

Which doesn't show anything to the East of the Beacon. The LOP is actually further along the coast to the East, close to Spain 'castle' which was originally a LOP in Napoleonic times!!

There was a photo on a brochure for one of the boats that does trips from Baltimore showing the Eire sign very clearly and I did hear that it had been cleaned up. I live close by there but have never been to see it.

The Google Earth of the Baltimore beacon is excellent, from a satt image taken in 2009. To see the new image requires a little detective work. Get the area on Google Earth and click the '2009' in the rectangle on the bottom left and the area covered by the 2009 pic extends to cover the Beacon in Baltimore. I cannot see any (even worn) markings to the East (bottom of the pic) of the beacon.

However, if you scan East to 51 28 24.91 N and 9 21 07.92 W you'll find it bright and clear!!

While your there slide the slider which should be on the top left of your screen to the right the whole way and get the IR image. The structure shadow to the North of the sign is Spain Castle. I think the black blob to the South E of Spain is the remains of the LOP.

As to the orientation of the sign the Google compass on top right would indicate it oriented just West of N.

Finally, the helicopter scan, afaics, doesn't show it.

B

merisi

I have a USAAF map of Ireland, which I acquired from the family of a deceased B-17 navigator. The map shows the location of all 82 LOP's (ÉIRE signs) as well as data on all the radio beacons, approach beams and tower frequencies for the airfields used by the USAAF in Northern Ireland.

Ponster

merisi wrote: »

I have a USAAF map of Ireland, which I acquired from the family of a deceased B-17 navigator. The map shows the location of all 82 LOP's (ÉIRE signs) as well as data on all the radio beacons, approach beams and tower frequencies for the airfields used by the USAAF in Northern Ireland.

Ahhh, the many that we've been waiting for !

Any idea how you could share such a find with the rest of us (or at least give us a glimpse of what it looks like?)

merisi

Ponster wrote: »

Ahhh, the many that we've been waiting for !

Any idea how you could share such a find with the rest of us (or at least give us a glimpse of what it looks like?)

I think the best I could do is take a photo of it: I have it mounted in a frame behind museum-quality glass. It's a little larger than A2 in size.