DAA and "Private Property"

River Song

SO, I was out spotting near the Blue Long Term car park at Dublin today with a friend, that little mound that runs alongside the runway from about E6 to the threshold of 10. It is worth mentioning that it it outside the fence of the car park. I've been there numerous times without a problem. But today was different. After about an hour of spotting, a DAA van marked "car park" pulled up near where I was, and shouted at me and my friend to "get down from there now. It's private property!". We complied, not wanting to cause a fuss with them. I went off down to the other spot at the threshold to 28 and after I went to the DAA desk in the terminal. The lady working and a colleague said that they didn't know. It could be private, but they weren't sure. They said nothing more.

So, can anyone tell me who was in the wrong here? My friend and I or the DAA?

Dacian

I'm not sure on this at all. I have never heard of anyone being hassled by the DAA like this before. Afterall it is the most known spotting location for DUB. I known similar has happened at SNN wher the airport police may ask you to move from certain locations along the perimeter. Seems strange that a DAA employee rather than the AP did this.

River Song

Dacian wrote: »

I'm not sure on this at all. I have never heard of anyone being hassled by the DAA like this before. Afterall it is the most known spotting location for DUB. I known similar has happened at SNN wher the airport police may ask you to move from certain locations along the perimeter. Seems strange that a DAA employee rather than the AP did this.

One time, actually, I was walking along with my airband radio going, towards the place. An AP car came by and he just waved, so I assumed he approved of me going there. I thought that the area outside the fence would at least be Fingal CC's, not the DAA's. I've heard that about SNN though.

xflyer

Actually it could be private property, DAA property. Just because an area is outside a fence doesn't mean it's not part of the property. That's the situation with Shannon as well.

However it does seem odd for him to run you off like that. It could be he was having a little Hitler moment or maybe he has been told to move people on by the powers that be. Time will tell. If there is a campaign everyone will be chased away from now on.

Alpha Papa

Hi All

Yes even though it was outside the perimeter fence you are very much on the land and roadways which are property of the minister of transport/DAA and is covered by all relevant Byelaws etc..

To be honest, I don't know why u where moved on if you where only spotting its not something generally that happens in DUB, certainly if you are not a concern to Airport Police or the directly effecting or in dangering the safety and security of the Airport.

Airport Police and Gardai, really are the only ones able to enforce bye laws or legislation in this area but maybe there new policy there that i dont know of.

Preset No.3

Alpha Papa wrote: »

Hi All

Yes even though it was outside the perimeter fence you are very much on the land and roadways which are property of the minister of transport/DAA and is covered by all relevant Byelaws etc..

To be honest, I don't know why u where moved on if you where only spotting its not something generally that happens in DUB, certainly if you are not a concern to Airport Police or the directly effecting or in dangering the safety and security of the Airport.

Airport Police and Gardai, really are the only ones able to enforce bye laws or legislation in this area but maybe there new policy there that i dont know of.

I would have a hard time listening to the airport security if they came near me anywhere outside the confines of the airport! Adjacent to the public road, and the garda came along I would most certainly comply. Airport Security can take a running jump!

mikemac

Well as said, I know there are areas outside the perimeter that are still controlled by airport security and Airport police.

I don't know Dublin but it happens in Shannon.

Alpha Papa

Preset No.3 wrote: »

I would have a hard time listening to the airport security if they came near me anywhere outside the confines of the airport! Adjacent to the public road, and the garda came along I would most certainly comply. Airport Security can take a running jump!

That attitude will get you far in live horse. It stinks in my opinon you expect to use a facility but not to follow the rules something wrong there.

Once your on lands owned or operated by the DAA/Minister Of Transport you have a legal obligation to follow all lawful instructions & directions of an authorised officer and member of the Airport Police as set down in legislation by goverment.

I hope you enjoy explaining that in district court if you did refuse them.

"Ah your Honor, in all fairness there only security men so i dont need to listen to them especially cause there outside there fence"

Its been tried before as a defence in district court during prosecutions and has always failed as an excuse with people ending up with either fines or worse in the past.

The Airport Police are not there to hassle already oppressed aviation enthusiast/spotter they have a role as defined by goverment to prevent acts of unlawful interference against civil aviation that also means protect user of the Airport and its lands from threats of a criminal nature and that includes pretecting you as a spotter using DAA/MOT lands to enjoy your hobby.

Even if you ring 999 and not Airport Police now for an emergency at or just outside the airport, 9 time out of 10 the Gardai are referring it back to Airport Police for number of reasons so dont be surprised if someday your the one in need of help and they arrive to assist you... Maybe then you tell them you dont need it either.

xflyer

A slight bit of thread drift but when the old Berlin wall was up. A lot of people didn't realise that even the western side of the wall was actually in East Berlin. More than once people protesting or painting grafitti on the wall found themselves confronted by East German border guards outside the wall. They were probably a lot more scary than the Airport Police.

As it is at the airport, the Airport Police are not a police force as such. There is only one police force in Ireland, well two if you count the North. They are security guards with enhanced powers within the airport. Even inside the airport the Garda take precedence. But it would be wrong to try and stand your ground with them anymore than it would be advisable to argue with a security guard in Dunnes carpark.

It will only end one way and the Gardai will be called to settle the matter. So best be polite.

SNAKEDOC

there is no signs up anywhere along the length of the runways at dublin to signify that it is private property. infact if it belongs to the minister for transport or the DAA then the whole place by law is defined as a public place so whether by right or payment you have the right to be there. the only people with legal powers to move anybody on is the gardai as the official police force of ireland. the airport police have authority in the airport confines mainly inside the airport boundary fence and then if they arrest anybody they must be handed over to gardai asap. on the matter of been moved off i would protest to been moved off by anybody except the gardai and ask why i am been moved away as i am not doing anything illegal. i would move away but only after making my point to whomever was present. the mound in question appears to be well outside the fence and that road is a regional road so i can't see the DAA been the owners of it. hence public place.

castie

The runway is also their property.

Is that also a public place ( by law as you say ) that you have a right to be there?

Dacian

castie wrote: »

The runway is also their property.

Is that also a public place ( by law as you say ) that you have a right to be there?

But the runway is inside an area that requires special permission to enter (airside) so therefore you should only be in that area if permitted.

I think the protestors attacking the US 'warplanes' in SNN were also guilty of trespassing.

Preset No.3

Alpha Papa wrote: »

That attitude will get you far in live horse. It stinks in my opinon you expect to use a facility but not to follow the rules something wrong there.

Once your on lands owned or operated by the DAA/Minister Of Transport you have a legal obligation to follow all lawful instructions & directions of an authorised officer and member of the Airport Police as set down in legislation by goverment.

I hope you enjoy explaining that in district court if you did refuse them.

"Ah your Honor, in all fairness there only security men so i dont need to listen to them especially cause there outside there fence"

Its been tried before as a defence in district court during prosecutions and has always failed as an excuse with people ending up with either fines or worse in the past.

The Airport Police are not there to hassle already oppressed aviation enthusiast/spotter they have a role as defined by goverment to prevent acts of unlawful interference against civil aviation that also means protect user of the Airport and its lands from threats of a criminal nature and that includes pretecting you as a spotter using DAA/MOT lands to enjoy your hobby.

Even if you ring 999 and not Airport Police now for an emergency at or just outside the airport, 9 time out of 10 the Gardai are referring it back to Airport Police for number of reasons so dont be surprised if someday your the one in need of help and they arrive to assist you... Maybe then you tell them you dont need it either.

I have read your contributions on other forums, and you do have a massive chip on your shoulder about the airport 'security'. I will not argue the point with you, other more qualified people on other forums have tried that and you just shout them down. But if I ever need assistance beside the airport, I will call the AA first as I would have more respect than the joeys from the airport!

SNAKEDOC

castie wrote: »

The runway is also their property.

Is that also a public place ( by law as you say ) that you have a right to be there?

no obvioulsy you cannot encroach on the runway or its environs without permission. that is why there is a need for a fence 8 foot high to indicate to people you can't just walk in there. the road along the runway is a public place and that is where the spotting location is so how is it private property if it was there should be a sign or something to indicate such otherwise how does anybody know. i don't go down the planning office every time i go out of the house in case i enter private property, it is marked for everybody to see. yes the runway is private because the land was precured and developed on as an airport. the road is a public throughfare. end off
in relation to the person getting run from the spotting location my thinking is an employee having a bad day or on a power trip.

Alpha Papa

SNAKEDOC wrote: »

no obvioulsy you cannot encroach on the runway or its environs without permission. that is why there is a need for a fence 8 foot high to indicate to people you can't just walk in there. the road along the runway is a public place and that is where the spotting location is so how is it private property if it was there should be a sign or something to indicate such otherwise how does anybody know. i don't go down the planning office every time i go out of the house in case i enter private property, it is marked for everybody to see. yes the runway is private because the land was precured and developed on as an airport. the road is a public throughfare. end off
in relation to the person getting run from the spotting location my thinking is an employee having a bad day or on a power trip.

Hi All

The roadway and lands you refer to are not public lands, the correct term and check with Fingal county council if you wish, is that the roadways around Dublin airport with the exception of one part are all Private roads with full public access not a regional roadwitht exception of the R132 which is again to be upgraded under the curent Transforming Dublin Airport project.

The key part of the above are that they are Private roads the up keep of these roads is maintained by the DAA and not the local authority and has been mentioned in the past this information appears in the stakeholder report etc.. as these roads are private roads and lands of the DAA/MOT they come under the jurisdication of the Airport byelaws etc.. hence Airport Police and obviously the Gardai have powers on said lands or powers to close off roads for maintenance or during a security operation etc..

Taken from Air Navigation & Transport Act 1998

“airport” means the aggregate of the lands comprised within an aerodrome and all land owned or occupied by an airport authority, including aircraft hangars, roads and car parks, used or intended to be used in whole or in part for the purposes of or in connection with the operation of such aerodrome;

Dublin airport does not just mean the lands inside the fence, the lands are 10 and half smile sqaure that is classed as an airport as it is an aggregate or group of lands.

Taken from CJA Public Order 1994

For the purposes of the law in Ireland, a ‘public place’ includes roads, public parks or recreational areas, cemeteries, churchyards, trains, buses and other public transport vehicles.


Going back to the OP question, I think i have now given the legal definition of what an airport comprises of in Ireland as above. The lands you where on are private but with the roadway that runs alongside gives full public access. It dosent mean you where doing anything illegal, I don't know why you where told to move if weren't doing anything out of the ordinary really and could always ask the person requiring you to move,why you have to move etc..

But for the final time the lands are property of DAA. I posted a google map picture before with the DAA/MOT lands on it in different thread last year when a similar discussion came up which showed said lands.

River Song

Thank you all for your responses. I have recently gotten a contact high up in the DAA itself, so I'm going to go to him about it hopefully. Should it happen next time, I'll just argue I'm not doing anything illegal and the area has full public access.

Thank you all

Stovepipe

Hi all,
Any security guard/airport policeman who feels the need to run off a harmless spotter outside the fence is being a twat, pure and simple. Given the amount of drugs being seized by the AP and Customs, inside the Airport, clearly the criminal element are already inside the allegedly secure area and have already passed thru another airport's allegedly secure area and you can be sure that they don't stop all the drugs or other illegal items being carried thru.
Enough said.
regards
Stovepipe

Alpha Papa

Stovepipe wrote: »

Hi all,
Any security guard/airport policeman who feels the need to run off a harmless spotter outside the fence is being a twat, pure and simple. Given the amount of drugs being seized by the AP and Customs, inside the Airport, clearly the criminal element are already inside the allegedly secure area and have already passed thru another airport's allegedly secure area and you can be sure that they don't stop all the drugs or other illegal items being carried thru.
Enough said.
regards
Stovepipe

Please re read the thread stovepipe the OP was not moved on by Airport Police. This thread has nothing to do with drugs and the airport its about private property and the airport.

Not to go off topic but the Airport Police arent just focused on drugs and their continued inter-agency operations with Revenue Customs but have a much wider scope of interest then that to maintain the safety and security of the Irish state airports.

Stovepipe

Hi there,
If a DAA non-Police employee feels that he has the right to run people, then I suggest the DAA sack their policemen and employ super vigilant carpark attendants instead.Clearly, a person with a scanner, a notebook and a set of binocs is not a car thief.........
regards
Stovepipe

trad

Alpha Papa, I take it from your comments that the roads within Dublin Airport are "Private Roads with public access".

If this is indeed the case the speed limits within the airport are unenforceable as speed limits only apply to roads under the control of a Roads Authority and the airports security staff are not authorised under the Road Traffic Act.

Alpha Papa

trad wrote: »

Alpha Papa, I take it from your comments that the roads within Dublin Airport are "Private Roads with public access".

If this is indeed the case the speed limits within the airport are unenforceable as speed limits only apply to roads under the control of a Roads Authority and the airports security staff are not authorised under the Road Traffic Act.

S.I. No. 425/1994:

AIRPORT BYE-LAWS, 1994.

Speed Limits

9. (1) Speed limits for vehicles being driven within an airport shall be as follows—


( a ) 15 kilometres per hour (10 miles per hour) in car parks and elsewhere as indicated;


( b ) 25 kilometres per hour (15 miles per hour) in the movement areas, and


( c ) 45 kilometres per hour (30 miles per hour) elsewhere,


such speed limits being indicated on signs erected by Aer Rianta;


(2) A person shall not drive a vehicle (other than a fire fighting or rescue vehicle, ambulance, or a vehicle under the control of a member of the Garda Síochána, the Airport Police Fire Service or the Defence Forces in the course of his duty where the security of an airport is threatened) on any airport or any part of any airport at a speed exceeding the speed limit specified by paragraph (1) of this Bye-Law for an airport or that part of an airport.


Vehicles

10. (1) A person driving a vehicle at an airport shall—


( a ) comply with any sign, light or notice erected by Aer Rianta in relation to the control of traffic,


( b ) drive the vehicle only on roads or in areas provided for the passage or accommodation of the vehicle concerned,


( c ) observe speed limits,


( d ) comply with any lawful directions of an authorised officer,

Airport Police & An Garda Siochaina may enforce byelaws in the airport or on its lands which carries its own penalties.

You are correct as so far as the the AGS may only enforce the Road Traffic Act but thats why the byelaws exist for Airport Police.

Generally the Gardai enforce speed limit on outer roads utilising the road traffic act, which is very much enforced on all airport roadways aswell as the byelaws by the Gardai inculding airside ramp roadways beside aircraft etc.. so your mistaken thinking that they cannot be enforced on airport roads as there technically accessible to the public but on private lands so allow it to be enforced when open to the public to drive on.

Hope that helps

tricky D

trad wrote: »

If this is indeed the case the speed limits within the airport are unenforceable as speed limits only apply to roads under the control of a Roads Authority and the airports security staff are not authorised under the Road Traffic Act.

Dunno where you got that from. Road laws apply to anywhere with public access. (Otherwise there would be an insurance nightmare, among many other things)

This matter and the matter of the AP jurisdiction has been done a few times already. The AP have jurisdiction beyond the fence. Do a search on it in the Emergency Services forum.

trad

TD road law as in speed limits only apply to a road where the speed limit is set by a local authority, a borough or county or town council. DAA does not fall into that category, I think it's in the 1994 Road Traffic Act, don't have time at the minute for chapter and verse.

The airport security staff are authorised officers under the Air Navigation Act or a bye law of it and have no powers under the RTA.

Alpha Papa

The Road Traffic Act of 1961 gives the Gardai authority on

"any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge"

So Road Traffic act can certainly be enforced,


For final time no one said Airport Police have powers under the RTA there powers in regards to speed enforcement are derived from Airport byelaws 1994 which uses reference from the RTA etc.. and enforcing the byelaws, powers come the various Aviation & Airport statues which carry powers of arrest and detention etc..

so in answer to your question member of the Gardai are well within there right to enforce the road traffic act on these roads.

trad

Alpha Papa, I am well aware of the definition of a public place under the RTA, I enforced it for many years. However a public road is one under the control of a roads authority which the DAA is not, neither are port authorities, nor for that matter the Phoenix Park. Only a road authority can set a speed limit which is enforceable under the RTA. If however the speed is considered dangereous, that's another matter.

Just one of the many inconsistencies in Irish law.

Alpha Papa

Hi trad

Not to sound pedantic but last sunday came across Gardai on of one of the said roads doing speed checks and in the past have seen plenty of tax and insurance checkpoints aswell.

But i do agree with you in regards to complexities of Irish law or really many inconsistencies in Irish law.

trad

Alpha Papa, the enforceability of speed enforcement within Dublin Airport came to my attention following the very unfortunate death of an AP in the late 80's where the hut he was in was struck by a speeding car. That's my experience of it.

tosull97

Airport Police Captor Spray, Baton
I read on one of these posts that the Airport Police were getting Captor Spray and Batons. Did they get them? What law covers this or what law will cover it. Just curious, doing research on applying for work at the airport.

Preset No.3

tosull97 wrote: »

Airport Police Captor Spray, Baton
I read on one of these posts that the Airport Police were getting Captor Spray and Batons. Did they get them? What law covers this or what law will cover it. Just curious, doing research on applying for work at the airport.

Good God no! I wouldnt trust any of the airport security with a french bread stick and a can of lynx let alone anything more dangerous!

qw12

can i just ask what your big problem with the airport police is? you come onto this site and make stupid comments about ap ,like your can of lnyx and bread stick.can you explain to me if the airport police are jumped up security guards why are they exempt from the security acts that require all security guards in the state to be licenceed.i have been a member of the airport police for 10 years,and sure there are some bad apples ,like in every other job,but what gives you the right to come on and make your petty littleminded statements.after all i don't come on this site and bad mouth your job what it is.you have to realise the vast majority of airport police just go in and do the best job they can.i like the vast number of my co workers do not and never did want to be ags. so please stop running down my job it belittles you.

Alpha Papa

Air Navigation and Transport (Amendment) Act, 1998

should put an end to the debate about AGS operating on said minister roads etc..


Road for purposes of Road Traffic Acts, 1961 to 1995.

59.—For the avoidance of doubt it is hereby declared that—

(a) the word “road” includes, for the purposes of the provisions of the Road Traffic Acts, 1961 to 1995, or any regulations made thereunder, a road in a State airport, and

(b) a State airport is, for the purposes of any enactment, a public place.

trad

AP from your own post (No 15)

The roadway and lands you refer to are not public lands, the correct term and check with Fingal county council if you wish, is that the roadways around Dublin airport with the exception of one part are all Private roads with full public access not a regional roadwitht exception of the R132 which is again to be upgraded under the curent Transforming Dublin Airport project.

The key part of the above are that they are Private roads the up keep of these roads is maintained by the DAA and not the local authority and has been mentioned in the past this information appears in the stakeholder report etc.. as these roads are private roads and lands of the DAA/MOT they come under the jurisdication of the Airport byelaws etc.. hence Airport Police and obviously the Gardai have powers on said lands or powers to close off roads for maintenance or during a security operation etc..


Perhaps you could clarify if the roads are indeed public or private.

Alpha Papa

Jayus horse you for real says it all above..

pretty well explained already for the sole purpose of the enactment of RTA a state airport is a public place for enforcing said act by AGS.

The roads are private but with full public access, the previously listed section of Air Navigation & Transport Act 1998 states it.

Hopefully that brings an end to this part of the thread.

Preset No.3

qw12 wrote: »

can i just ask what your big problem with the airport police is? you come onto this site and make stupid comments about ap ,like your can of lnyx and bread stick.can you explain to me if the airport police are jumped up security guards why are they exempt from the security acts that require all security guards in the state to be licenceed.i have been a member of the airport police for 10 years,and sure there are some bad apples ,like in every other job,but what gives you the right to come on and make your petty littleminded statements.after all i don't come on this site and bad mouth your job what it is.you have to realise the vast majority of airport police just go in and do the best job they can.i like the vast number of my co workers do not and never did want to be ags. so please stop running down my job it belittles you.

Well I am entitled to my opinion and I will stand by it! What is my big problem? Simply, I think any of the airport security I have ever had dealings with are idiots! The whole 'good and bad in every job' line does not hold much water for me, as for the years that i have been travelling, I wouldnt say that I have met one decent fella that does the job, smiles, performs his tasks and goes home. Everyone of them I have met all have some chip on their shoulder.

By the way, you can bad mouth my industry if you want. I am a TD! :D:D

cyrusdvirus

Preset No.3 wrote: »

Well I am entitled to my opinion and I will stand by it! What is my big problem? Simply, I think any of the airport security I have ever had dealings with are idiots! The whole 'good and bad in every job' line does not hold much water for me, as for the years that i have been travelling, I wouldnt say that I have met one decent fella that does the job, smiles, performs his tasks and goes home. Everyone of them I have met all have some chip on their shoulder.

By the way, you can bad mouth my industry if you want. I am a TD! :D:D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TD

Hmmmm....

Sooooooooooooooooooooooooo many options!!!

dd89

None of this is meant to critisise or demean airport police or security or gardai etc. I worked in Dublin Airport for a few years and am now working in a UK airport.

I disagree with you Alpha Papa. I have read all the air navigation acts etc and nowhere are ap mentioned in relation to the giving of powers under these acts.The powers are given to Authorised Officers. Nowhere could i find the words Airport Police in these sections. Somewhere along the line the name airport police was taken. The fisheries officers have powers in law same as you but you do not find them saying they are police. They are Fisheries Officers. There should be a standard name for people given powers as authorised officers under these acts to prevent confusion. Ap should be called 'Airport Officers'.

By changing the name it would prevent confusion with people thinking ap are Gardai.


The airport police are a private body hired by DAA. The powers come from the air navigation acts. The Gardai are hired by the state, and are controlled by the Dept. of Justice and not the Dept. of Environment, as DAA is answerable to. What happens if DAA continues to lose money? They will cut back on ap same as every other section. How can airport security be left to a private company.

If an ap arrests somebody they have to hand this person to the Gardai. The Garda decides if there is enough grounds for him to arrest or detain this person. I have witnessed occasions when the Gardai refused to take somebody into custody from the ap. The ap do not have grounds of detention other than handing the person to Gardai. They cannot detain for criminal investigation etc.

In recent legislation (e.g. preclearance act 2010?) the 'Irish law enforcement agencys' are defined as the Gardai and Customs. Also the Air accident investigation unit guidelines outlines the role for Gardai. There is no mention of airport police. Also Regulation (EC) 300/2008 states that one single authority should have overall co-ordination of security at airports. This could well be aimed at Ireland as it is probably the only country in the EU with such a crazy situation. The one single authority has to be the Gardai ( for reasons of intelligence, arms, real experience in policing critical situations). The ap have been refused batons and pepper spray so the people in government must be coming to this conclusion too.

BAA were in a similar situation in 1974 when they had their own 'police' force (though these were sworn home office officers) and the met police took over the policing of the uk airports. In 1974 Heathrow had the same passenger through put as Dublin has now.


None of this is meant to demean the airport police. They do a good and necessary job. My point is that they are not a 'police' force and should have their name changed to 'Airport Officers' to standardise persons who are given powers as 'authorised officers' under different acts. I have read posts from oneor two airport police who have stated something similar.

Alpha Papa

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055693146&page=7

My reply is Post 94.

The above exact same post has been made there also.