stand-off in manila

punchdrunk

has anyone else been watching the bus hostage situation in the Philippines?
their efforts to storm the bus have been pathetic

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Philippines-Gunman-Hijacks-Tourist-Bus-In-Manila-Packed-With-Children-And-Adults-Gunshots-Heard/Article/201008415702444?lpos=World_News_First_World_News_Article_Teaser_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15702444_Philippines_Gunman_Hijacks_Tourist_Bus_In_Manila_Packed_With_Children_And_Adults%2C_Gunshots_Heard

I would hope any events like this here would have a better resolution than this!

Hooch

punchdrunk wrote: »

has anyone else been watching the bus hostage situation in the Philippines?
their efforts to storm the bus have been pathetic

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Philippines-Gunman-Hijacks-Tourist-Bus-In-Manila-Packed-With-Children-And-Adults-Gunshots-Heard/Article/201008415702444?lpos=World_News_First_World_News_Article_Teaser_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15702444_Philippines_Gunman_Hijacks_Tourist_Bus_In_Manila_Packed_With_Children_And_Adults%2C_Gunshots_Heard

I would hope any events like this here would have a better resolution than this!

What a terrible operation!! From start to finish it was handled very very badly.

I had the pleasure of seeing a video and photos from the below exercise where the unit who will not be named stormed a bus. It was epic epicness!!

http://www.gardareview.ie/index.php?article=Extreme_measures

Delancey

Agree that the Manila incident was atrociously handled - took 15 -20 mins for the 'elite' unit to to gain entry to the bus. FUBAR :eek:

punchdrunk

delancey42 wrote: »

Agree that the Manila incident was atrociously handled - took 15 -20 mins for the 'elite' unit to to gain entry to the bus. FUBAR :eek:

actually sky were saying about 45 minutes/5 attempts :eek:

didn't see a single flashbang used or smoke,why not??

now granted they didn't look like SF or swat but still,the shoddy SOP's that led to the 14 year old onlooker being shot shows that they failed to do something as basic as set up a secure perimeter

also the minute the muzzle of that m16 came out the bus window,away from the hostages he should have been dropped by sniper
the guy managed to get off what,15-20 rounds in full view? easily enough time for a sniper to get off 2 or 3 centre mass shots on him

Zambia

Lets put this in perspective. This is a police force that hired the gunman. Who was at a level of inteligence to believe if you want to be reinstated into the police the way to do it is to take a load of tourists hostage.

So why are we expecting so much from the SWAT unit.

bravestar

Zambia232 wrote: »

Lets put this in perspective. This is a police force that hired the gunman. Who was at a level of inteligence to believe if you want to be reinstated into the police the way to do it is to take a load of tourists hostage.

So why are we expecting so much from the SWAT unit.

Well said. Completely FUBAR.

Ah, had they shot him before he did anything there'd only be moaning about how they killed him instead of coming to a happy ending.


Why didn't they just tell him he could get back into the Police? Send over a Police official, with a contract, etc. etc. and then when he gets off the bus, jump him and arrest him?

meathstevie

What a mess...one half decent rifle with a heat imaging sight one shot and end of... .

Looking at the TV images the assault on the bus wasn't even pushed through once the hostage taker started firing at the police.

civdef

To think, all they had to do was ask the experts here on boards.ie and it could have been sorted out safely in time for tea and medals.

Such a missed opportunity.

petergfiffin

Looking at the link provided by NGA, to an outsider like me it seems there's a lot of cross-over between the ERU and the ARW (Army Ranger Wing), I'm not looking for any operational type info but are there clearly defined points where the ERU would hand over to the ARW or is it on a case by case basis?

I don't mean for this to develop into a peeing contest about whether the ARW's dad could beat up the ERU's or vice versa!!

meathstevie

It would be a bit like comparing SO19 with the SAS. Although their equipment and tacticts and training for certain situations might be very similar if not identical they would in essence be very different animals. The likes of the ARW and SAS and their equivalent units in the western world would be capable of dealing with hostage situations and the like but they also have a military role which would involve long distance recce, sabotage, early infiltration etc etc..while the likes of the ERU, SO19 and whatever you have anywhere else is purely specialised in policing operations. Of course there will be significant overlap in skill sets and training.

If I would be an Inspector or Superintendent in charge of a hostage situation I would prefer to use the ERU for a number of reason among which the fact that you'd operate in a single command structure and that the ERU has the Garda "rules of engagement" drilled into their brains.

Zambia

civdef wrote: »

To think, all they had to do was ask the experts here on boards.ie.

Or any kid who has played SWAT 4 in fairness.

Corcioch

petergfiffin wrote: »

Looking at the link provided by NGA, to an outsider like me it seems there's a lot of cross-over between the ERU and the ARW (Army Ranger Wing), I'm not looking for any operational type info but are there clearly defined points where the ERU would hand over to the ARW or is it on a case by case basis?

I don't mean for this to develop into a peeing contest about whether the ARW's dad could beat up the ERU's or vice versa!!

ARW are a Military Unit . . .ERU are a Policing Unit . . . as we all know.

So the ERU are the specialist firearms unit of the States Civil Power, the ARW are not.

I cant see why there would be any situations concerning a Policing Operation where the ERU would "hand over" anything to the ARW.



But to their credit the Defence Forces have often in the past provided great assistance to AGS when dealing with serious crime . . .the John O Grady kidnapping for example. . . . .there is no hand over though, the Defence Forces act as 'an aid to the civil power'.

Poccington

punchdrunk wrote: »

didn't see a single flashbang used or smoke,why not??

also the minute the muzzle of that m16 came out the bus window,away from the hostages he should have been dropped by sniper
the guy managed to get off what,15-20 rounds in full view? easily enough time for a sniper to get off 2 or 3 centre mass shots on him

Why would you toss a smoke grenade into a bus filled with hostages that you were about to storm?

As for a sniper, bullets tend to travel further than the target. Plus, trying to bang off 2 or 3 rounds on a target swinging about in a packed bus is taking a rather large chance.

Poccington

petergfiffin wrote: »

Looking at the link provided by NGA, to an outsider like me it seems there's a lot of cross-over between the ERU and the ARW (Army Ranger Wing), I'm not looking for any operational type info but are there clearly defined points where the ERU would hand over to the ARW or is it on a case by case basis?

I don't mean for this to develop into a peeing contest about whether the ARW's dad could beat up the ERU's or vice versa!!

The ERU are the tip of the spear for AGS, with the Wing being the tip of the spear for the DF.

AGS look after the policing side of things, the DF look after the military side of things.

I can't think of a domestic situation where the ERU would "hand over" to the Wing.

Zambia

Poccington wrote: »

I can't think of a domestic situation where the ERU would "hand over" to the Wing.

Blue flu

mcgarrett

Zambia232 wrote: »

Blue flu

Those lads have never suffered from flu

http://www.herald.ie/national-news/courts/shot-rira-raider-held-gun-to-head-of-hijack-victim-1900217.html

petergfiffin

It might be something for a different thread but if it's the case that the ERU are now the defacto unit for hostage situations then are we again duplicating effort & resources by having both the ARW & ERU training for effectively the same role? I don't mean the ARW should be used in situations like Abbeylara - which was clearly a policing operation - given the ARWs priority will not be to preserve life and arrest people, but in examples like Manila or the Iranian embassy in London where the stakes are higher would it still be the ERU or the ARW?

I had thought it would work in a similar manner to the FBI in NGA's link (http://www.gardareview.ie/index.php?article=Extreme_measures) where it says "The hostage rescue unit in the FBI in America are dedicated as a national team. They are there for the big occasion and major events while other units do more routine operations.", where the ARW would be substituted for the FBI in this instance.

Apart from general nosiness my reason for asking is that I would hate to see a situation where something happens and then there is a level of in-fighting as to who should take control which would lead to either delays or worse.

Corcioch

petergfiffin wrote: »

It might be something for a different thread but if it's the case that the ERU are now the defacto unit for hostage situations then are we again duplicating effort & resources by having both the ARW & ERU training for effectively the same role? I don't mean the ARW should be used in situations like Abbeylara - which was clearly a policing operation - given the ARWs priority will not be to preserve life and arrest people, but in examples like Manila or the Iranian embassy in London where the stakes are higher would it still be the ERU or the ARW?

I had thought it would work in a similar manner to the FBI in NGA's link (http://www.gardareview.ie/index.php?article=Extreme_measures) where it says "The hostage rescue unit in the FBI in America are dedicated as a national team. They are there for the big occasion and major events while other units do more routine operations.", where the ARW would be substituted for the FBI in this instance.

Apart from general nosiness my reason for asking is that I would hate to see a situation where something happens and then there is a level of in-fighting as to who should take control which would lead to either delays or worse.

While the incident in Abbeylara will always be referrred to by people when talking about the ERU that incident occurred in a different age of the ERU .

. . . there is little or no comparison betweent the Unit that exists now and the one that existed then . . .in terms of equipment,capability, resources and training.

Yes the FBI HRT are a step above almost all other Law Enforcement Specialsit Firearms Units in the US, in terms of resources etc ( NYPD's ESU & LAPD's SWAT are highly capabable units too . . .expolsive breeching ability etc )

. . .but FBI's HRT also have their Abbeylara . . .Rubyridge was the incident, Waco caused huge controversy too . . .

. . . .and yes the HRT officers train with Delta Force Operators on Sniper Courses etc but the difference between them and the ARW is that the FBI are a Police Force, Federal Law Enforcement Agency.

The ARW are a military unit. They do not have Civil Powers.

There would undoubtably be cross unit co operation and assistance . . .but a "hand over" . . .I dont believe so.


If Manilla happened here in the morning then the ERU would undoubtably handle the situation . . .


If the Irianian Embassy happened again in London in the morning, I cant see past SFO's from the Mets SO19 dealing with the situation . . .not the SAS. . . . .the SAS dealing with that incident was of its age for a few reasons, I do not believe it would happen in this day and age.

Hooch

petergfiffin wrote: »

It might be something for a different thread but if it's the case that the ERU are now the defacto unit for hostage situations then are we again duplicating effort & resources by having both the ARW & ERU training for effectively the same role? I don't mean the ARW should be used in situations like Abbeylara - which was clearly a policing operation - given the ARWs priority will not be to preserve life and arrest people, but in examples like Manila or the Iranian embassy in London where the stakes are higher would it still be the ERU or the ARW?

I had thought it would work in a similar manner to the FBI in NGA's link (http://www.gardareview.ie/index.php?article=Extreme_measures) where it says "The hostage rescue unit in the FBI in America are dedicated as a national team. They are there for the big occasion and major events while other units do more routine operations.", where the ARW would be substituted for the FBI in this instance.

Apart from general nosiness my reason for asking is that I would hate to see a situation where something happens and then there is a level of in-fighting as to who should take control which would lead to either delays or worse.

THey both have different roles, not always within the state....

Mod note
To be honest guys im not comfortable talking about the comparison between ERU and ARW. Im going to leave it open but please leave out any reference to ERU etc from this point. Discuss the original topic.

petergfiffin

nice guy always wrote: »

Mod note
To be honest guys im not comfortable talking about the comparison between ERU and ARW. Im going to leave it open but please leave out any reference to ERU etc from this point. Discuss the original topic.

No problem, I think my question has been pretty much answered.