Ben 10

seenitall

Yesterday in my local shop, I witnessed something that disturbed me a bit. It surprised me, but perhaps it shouldn't have.

There was a little girl (about 5 y.o.) with her father (about late twenties, maybe early thirties) waiting in line for the till. The little girl was eyeing the display of kids' toys and books, as kids do, and then she picked up a Ben 10 sticker set thingy or something similar and came back to daddy trying to get him on side for it (as kids do).

Daddy said something in the vein of: "No way, you can forget it, that's for boys." The little one kept up the pleading for a bit, so after a while daddy got an idea of something quite clever and funny to say: "If it was Gwen 10, now, that would be different, haha." Obviously pleased with his joke, he repeated it a few times.

I found the whole thing quite sad to witness, actually, but is that just me? I'd like to read some views on this from Irish people, please.

I just last week bought my daughter a Ben 10 T-shirt; she loves Ben 10. Why would I deny her loving Ben 10 on grounds of her gender? How much sense would that make? To my mind, bringing children up with such strict views on what is gender-appropriate is just horribly narrow-minded, petty and backward (hope I am not offending anyone reading this). I really did think it belonged to another era, that is why I was surprised. Fear is such a yuck, yuck quality in people's mentalities. If your daughter is going to grow up a butch lesbian, there is precious little you can do about it, ban Ben 10 all you want. All you are doing is supressing her expression of her personality, for no good reason whatsoever. Poor child.

(I think I am beginning to understand why in this country, on a night out, all the girls and all the boys look like they have been dressed, coiffed and groomed by the same two stylists, one for ladies, and the other for gentlemen - they must be extremely busy!:D)

Am I being too harsh on this (young) father? I do tend to have very definite views (aka opinionated ), and coming from a different culture, many times they are culturally-related. Is this type of thinking still common in Ireland?

looksee

I don't think it is particularly prevalent in Ireland, it was just one unimaginative individual making what he saw as a smart remark. He didn't want to buy the child anything, for whatever reason (don't buy her something every time you go into a shop), that was the first excuse that came to mind.

Parents teach (often unconsciously) their children to be sexist, racist, selfish, of a particular faith, or none, abusive, violent - or patient, loving, thoughtful, honest. It doesn't always 'take', and sometimes has the opposite result to what they expect.

Silly, sometimes sad, but a normal part of life.

seenitall

I think the circumstance in which he is teaching his child that Ben 10 is for boys and not girls is irrelevant to the point I made (the circumstance being he was - perhaps - only avoiding purchase; there is such a thing as saying "No, we can't spend more money this time", I have to employ the phrase on an almost daily basis myself).

Squarewave

I think this sort of thing is very common in every society, for the same reason that a parent mightn't like their son playing with Barbie dolls. I guess it's a way for the parent to reinforce their views or cultural and social view of gender identity, how they believe a girl or boy should behave in society. The other thing you mentioned was a fear of their children becoming homosexual. I don't think this fear is well founded since young children don't have a very clear distinction between genders and the characteristics which define gender, i.e the girl in your example couldn't really differentiate between what toys are acceptable for boys and what toys are acceptable for girls. So even if she plays with Action men and toy guns, she would be unaware of the masculinity associated with the toys, and therefore they would be unlikely to have an effect on her sexual identity. In her eyes, toys are toys. As we get older, social and cultural ideas of what constitutes masculinity and feminity become more engrained in our minds, e.g, we automically associate the colour pink with girls, but to a young child who was never told pink is a girl's colour, this association wouldn't make sense. I guess what the father here was doing was enforcing what society has told us is appropriate for a girl.

seenitall

I may be wrong, but I don't think that this sort of thing is very common in every society. In most of them, of course. Once you consider that China, India and Pakistan are the world's most populated countries, you will know what I mean.

My point was that in this girl's eyes toys, as you say, were toys, now they are not any more. She is already, at such a young and asexual age, having proscribed to her what she should and should not be interested in as a member of her sex, and is thus having her likes and leanings and expression stifled and directed. I took a pot-shot at guessing why he would behave in such a manner, and what I came up with is perhaps some irrational fear of latent homosexuality or similar, but it could be any other number of irrational fears, for all I know.

"I guess what the father here was doing was enforcing what society has told us is appropriate for a girl." - Well, yes, this was my point. If you don't see anything even a tiniest bit debatable in that... then thank you for your input anyway.

Remember, we are the society.

Denerick

What, Irish fathers making lame jokes and repeating them over and over again? Never!

looksee

seenitall wrote: »

I may be wrong, but I don't think that this sort of thing is very common in every society. In most of them, of course. Once you consider that China, India and Pakistan are the world's most populated countries, you will know what I mean.

My point was that in this girl's eyes toys, as you say, were toys, now they are not any more. She is already, at such a young and asexual age, having proscribed to her what she should and should not be interested in as a member of her sex, and is thus having her likes and leanings and expression stifled and directed. I took a pot-shot at guessing why he would behave in such a manner, and what I came up with is perhaps some irrational fear of latent homosexuality or similar, but it could be any other number of irrational fears, for all I know.

"I guess what the father here was doing was enforcing what society has told us is appropriate for a girl." - Well, yes, this was my point. If you don't see anything even a tiniest bit debatable in that... then thank you for your input anyway.

Remember, we are the society.

I think you are over-reacting a bit, based on your survey of one parent. Yes, his attitude was stupid and inappropriate, but evidently the child had not been refused on gender grounds very often, as she did not see any problem about asking for it. Quite possibly her mother would have let her have it, or at least refused on other grounds.

Whatever you might think, children do, largely, prefer different types of toys. Not because they are taught to prefer them, just according to their nature. My sister preferred her dolls pram and doll, I preferred to be making things, whether woodwork, needlework or whatever, so long as I was making something, or reading, I was happy. I own and can - and do - use a wide range of diy tools, I have made furniture and built in kitchens in my time. I also own a sewing machine and do crochet and embroidery. It did not make any difference in the long run, we both got married and had families.

It will take a long time for the attitude of what is right or wrong for different sexes to fade completely, and there is every chance that by then society will have decided that there is a difference and it is not inappropriate to allow people to follow their own preferences.

I do agree that men and women should have equal opportunities, that doesn't mean that they have to be identical in all areas. Could I suggest that it is you who has jumped on the bandwaggon of accepting without thought that the de-sexing of society is inevitable and desirable?

seenitall

looksee wrote: »

I think you are over-reacting a bit, based on your survey of one parent. Yes, his attitude was stupid and inappropriate, but evidently the child had not been refused on gender grounds very often, as she did not see any problem about asking for it. Quite possibly her mother would have let her have it, or at least refused on other grounds.

Whatever you might think, children do, largely, prefer different types of toys. Not because they are taught to prefer them, just according to their nature. My sister preferred her dolls pram and doll, I preferred to be making things, whether woodwork, needlework or whatever, so long as I was making something, or reading, I was happy. I own and can - and do - use a wide range of diy tools, I have made furniture and built in kitchens in my time. I also own a sewing machine and do crochet and embroidery. It did not make any difference in the long run, we both got married and had families.

It will take a long time for the attitude of what is right or wrong for different sexes to fade completely, and there is every chance that by then society will have decided that there is a difference and it is not inappropriate to allow people to follow their own preferences.

I do agree that men and women should have equal opportunities, that doesn't mean that they have to be identical in all areas. Could I suggest that it is you who has jumped on the bandwaggon of accepting without thought that the de-sexing of society is inevitable and desirable?

The bolded paragraph is very confusing to me. First of all, "whatever I might think"? "According to their nature"? No. Excuse me, but little girls don't just flock to Barbie dolls and all things pink over trucks and all things blue all of their own accord, they are conditioned to choose one over the other. Did you know that in the early decades of the last century it was pink that was the "boy's colour"? Food for thought.

Sure it didn't make any difference in the long run to you as a person - you were allowed to express your interests and inclinations, weren't you? Not that I believe that there is a pronounced possibility that the girls and boys who are being conditioned in this way by their parents are going to suffer socially as the result of that, since the very aim of such programming is to make them conform to social rules and strictures.

"there is every chance that by then society will have decided that there is a difference and it is not inappropriate to allow people to follow their own preferences." - Huh? As far as I can see, the first half of this sentence directly contradicts its second half. The little girl from my OP was not allowed to follow her own preference, because the society decided that there is a difference.

"Could I suggest that it is you who has jumped on the bandwaggon of accepting without thought that the de-sexing of society is inevitable and desirable?" - You could indeed. The reason I started the thread is to get different people's viewpoints on this, and that's what I am getting. I like a good discussion about things I feel strongly about.

confusticated

seenitall wrote: »

Excuse me, but little girls don't just flock to Barbie dolls and all things pink over trucks and all things blue all of their own accord, they are conditioned to choose one over the other.

They often do though, maybe it's because they see their mam looking after them so they mind their dolls to copy her. Which could be because in our society it's mostly the mothers who stay home to look after kids, but that's a whole different debate.

My sister is a fair bit younger than my brother and I, so she had loads of our old toys passed down to her. None of the tractors and things were kept, the dolls were. She just preferred them. Maybe she knew they were mine and I'm a girl so she was copying me, but she wasn't ever encouraged or discouraged from picking a particular toy, but still chose the dolls.

A stereotype can't be explained just by society's conditioning - sure maybe some children are told they can and can't have toys based on their gender, but not all little girls are forced to play with their dolls. They could ignore them if they didn't like them. You can't make kids play with toys if they don't want to.

Having said that, your example was very sad, and I kind of hope the little girl went home and played football for the evening!

Eve_Dublin

seenitall wrote: »

Am I being too harsh on this (young) father? I do tend to have very definite views (aka opinionated ), and coming from a different culture, many times they are culturally-related. Is this type of thinking still common in Ireland?

Is this kind of thing still common in Irish society? Actually in my experience I'd say this was less common in the past and I'd say it's a lot more common now, not just in Ireland but in Western culture generally. Saying that, I wouldn't say it's a problem in Irish culture just yet, at least IME.

My niece is 7 years old and she is girly to the extreme but in a way I don't recognise from my own childhood. I don't think it comes naturally to her though. She spent 6 years of her life in Ireland, moved to America last year and her father is non-Irish and I'd say he's the guilty party for compounding her extreme girliness. When she lived in Ireland, she played outside on bikes with her friends and happily got her hands dirty playing around but since living in America, I've noticed her copying role models like Hanna Montana and

I think we've imported this conditioning from the States. You mentioned that you noticed how Irish women and men dress very similiar on a Saturday night. I'd say that down to 2 reasons and none of which are anything to do with girls playing with Barbie Dolls and boys playing with Action Man. 1) The Irish are conformists and always have been. We've never had a history of counter-culture...whether that's down to the Catholic Church, the size of the country or lack of any real cultural revolution etc. I don't know. 2) We're bombarded by British and American media and the girls I see out on a Saturday night are carbon copies of their British and American counterparts you see on MTV etc. Their supposed lack of imagination is down to their fear of going against the grain but don't judge the attitude by the clothes.

In fact I'd say Irish culture differs from other countries I've lived in that we don't stick to our own gender roles. Irish men aren't your typical macho stereotypes you'd see on the continent, the States or the UK and the girls wouldn't be feminine to the extreme like I've seen elsewhere. In fact I'd say for women to take on the submissive role among her friends wouldn't be tolerated. I find Irish women quite strong in general and Irish guys to be fairly passive (I mean this in a nice way). I'd say things are pretty equal among men and women in Ireland and a lot of that has to come down to upbringing. I don't think Irish women get away with acting the giggly girly-girl as much as women in other cultures I've encountered.

Really, basing your judgement on the actions of this one father is a little misguided if you ask me. I'd say this dad is an exception to the rule. I went to see Dublin V Cork yesterday and saw lots of dads holding the hands of their daughters wearing GAA jerseys (just like myself as a kid). I'm not sure if it's the climate or what but I really don't think Irish culture doesn't allow for traditional gender roles. I'd find the divide society has enforced much more permeable than a lot of other cultures.

metrovelvet

You'd be surprised. I had my son in a pink polo shirt. A couple of people made some inquiries about it.

I think people are weird about this stuff. I would say I would get a lot of raised eyebrows if I taught my son how to knit for example. I think cooking and cleaning are about the extent of the domestic arts that people find gender transferable.

seenitall

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Is this kind of thing still common in Irish society? Actually in my experience I'd say this was less common in the past and I'd say it's a lot more common now, not just in Ireland but in Western culture generally. Saying that, I wouldn't say it's a problem in Irish culture just yet, at least IME.

My niece is 7 years old and she is girly to the extreme but in a way I don't recognise from my own childhood. I don't think it comes naturally to her though. She spent 6 years of her life in Ireland, moved to America last year and her father is non-Irish and I'd say he's the guilty party for compounding her extreme girliness. When she lived in Ireland, she played outside on bikes with her friends and happily got her hands dirty playing around but since living in America, I've noticed her copying role models like Hanna Montana and

I think we've imported this conditioning from the States. You mentioned that you noticed how Irish women and men dress very similiar on a Saturday night. I'd say that down to 2 reasons and none of which are anything to do with girls playing with Barbie Dolls and boys playing with Action Man. 1) The Irish are conformists and always have been. We've never had a history of counter-culture...whether that's down to the Catholic Church, the size of the country or lack of any real cultural revolution etc. I don't know. 2) We're bombarded by British and American media and the girls I see out on a Saturday night are carbon copies of their British and American counterparts you see on MTV etc. Their supposed lack of imagination is down to their fear of going against the grain but don't judge the attitude by the clothes.

In fact I'd say Irish culture differs from other countries I've lived in that we don't stick to our own gender roles. Irish men aren't your typical macho stereotypes you'd see on the continent, the States or the UK and the girls wouldn't be feminine to the extreme like I've seen elsewhere. In fact I'd say for women to take on the submissive role among her friends wouldn't be tolerated. I find Irish women quite strong in general and Irish guys to be fairly passive (I mean this in a nice way). I'd say things are pretty equal among men and women in Ireland and a lot of that has to come down to upbringing. I don't think Irish women get away with acting the giggly girly-girl as much as women in other cultures I've encountered.

Really, basing your judgement on the actions of this one father is a little misguided if you ask me. I'd say this dad is an exception to the rule. I went to see Dublin V Cork yesterday and saw lots of dads holding the hands of their daughters wearing GAA jerseys (just like myself as a kid). I'm not sure if it's the climate or what but I really don't think Irish culture doesn't allow for traditional gender roles. I'd find the divide society has enforced much more permeable than a lot of other cultures.

A very insightful post, Eve. Observationally, I don't agree with everything you say, for example I think that the Irish are still pretty traditional on the whole, and hold to the traditional gender roles pretty strongly overall, compared to, say, English people (and certainly not to Spanish or Italians! - this is just my personal observation as opposed to yours). Acting all macho or girly isn't all there is to being traditionally minded, which is kind of touching on the original subject of this thread. Traditional societies tend to reduce the two genders to two proscribed and very distinct sets of careers, interests, fashions, colours, etc... whoever doesn't fit in, will be considered with a raised eyebrow at the very least (as per metrovelvet's post). I am not saying ALL of this happens in Ireland, as, obviously, Ireland is a Western democracy, and as things stand, the genders are pretty equal overall. Pretty equal, but still some artificial distinctions are being reinforced (in my humble opinion).

I do agree with the bolded bit, which I think is bang on. I noticed the conformist thing with Irish people a long time ago. I think it is a part of that distinctive, earthy quality the Irish have, along with a wicked sense of humour and, needless to say, gift of the gab.

Metrovelvet, thank you. Your post is exactly what I was aiming at with this topic. There is a lot of very subtle, but really quite redundant conditioning and programming of young minds taking place all the time. I am under no illusion it will all stop just because I don't particularly care for it, but I think that a big part of the problem is that the majority of people are actually unaware when they are contributing to these things being perpetuated, it can be that subtle really (and it mostly is). So I like to discuss it at least.

Eve_Dublin

seenitall wrote: »

Metrovelvet, thank you. Your post is exactly what I was aiming at with this topic. There is a lot of very subtle, but really quite redundant conditioning and programming of young minds taking place all the time. I am under no illusion it will all stop just because I don't particularly care for it, but I think that a big part of the problem is that the majority of people are actually unaware when they are contributing to these things being perpetuated, it can be that subtle really (and it mostly is). So I like to discuss it at least.

You're both non-Irish and it's interesting to hear an outsiders point of view on this actually. I guess I've grown up with it and can't it as objectively as you.

I'll reiterate my previous point though and state that I believe that this is definitely a recent phenomenon and I think it's coincided with the regression in feminism generally in Western culture. Back in the 80s in Ireland growing up, my friends and myself had very few bought toys. Things were very different in the country back then, even the recent crisis is incomparable to how it was pre Celtic Tiger. Pink wasn't pushed on me because my mother couldn't exclusively buy just pink or girly toys. Most of my toys and clothes were the hand-me-downs from 2 older brothers and 2 older sisters and I came from a middle class backrgound by 80s standards (although both of my parents came from inner city Dublin). I played outdoors on the streets and the fields surrounding my estate, played on my bike, played with insects, built dens etc. I'd one Barbie doll I bought in a jumble sale whose hair I chopped off immediately.

I wasn't the exception. I wasn't a tomboy....most girls in my class played outdoors, didn't have many toys and that's the way it was. We improvised. I'm guessing my town wasn't the exception. I see my niece now and I can't relate to her on that girly-girl level. It seems artificial...like something I see on American kids telly that I wasn't bombarded with as much (we didn't watch telelvision all the time...too much fun to be had elsewhere). My father would never have denied me an action man for my birthday if that's what I wanted. I'm guessing the "conditioning" of young minds coincided with the boom in the economy when people could afford to condition.

Dudess

I remember seeing an experiment on TV featuring a group of young male and female chimps - the objective was quite simple: produce a range of gendered toys (e.g. toy cars, dolls) and leave the chimps to their own devices and see which ones they choose... and the boy chimps picked the boy toys, the girl chimps the girl toys. It was very amusing... :pac:

It was only a short clip - don't know how effective the experiment was overall.

metrovelvet

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

You're both non-Irish and it's interesting to hear an outsiders point of view on this actually. I guess I've grown up with it and can't it as objectively as you.

I'll reiterate my previous point though and state that I believe that this is definitely a recent phenomenon and I think it's coincided with the regression in feminism generally in Western culture. Back in the 80s in Ireland growing up, my friends and myself had very few bought toys. Things were very different in the country back then, even the recent crisis is incomparable to how it was pre Celtic Tiger. Pink wasn't pushed on me because my mother couldn't exclusively buy just pink or girly toys. Most of my toys and clothes were the hand-me-downs from 2 older brothers and 2 older sisters and I came from a middle class backrgound by 80s standards (although both of my parents came from inner city Dublin). I played outdoors on the streets and the fields surrounding my estate, played on my bike, played with insects, built dens etc. I'd one Barbie doll I bought in a jumble sale whose hair I chopped off immediately.

I wasn't the exception. I wasn't a tomboy....most girls in my class played outdoors, didn't have many toys and that's the way it was. We improvised. I'm guessing my town wasn't the exception. I see my niece now and I can't relate to her on that girly-girl level. It seems artificial...like something I see on American kids telly that I wasn't bombarded with as much (we didn't watch telelvision all the time...too much fun to be had elsewhere). My father would never have denied me an action man for my birthday if that's what I wanted. I'm guessing the "conditioning" of young minds coincided with the boom in the economy when people could afford to condition.

Also because people dont let their kids out as much so there are a lot of toys being bought for indoor entertainment and much more tv watching now.

I find Irish girls imitate american tv far more than american girls do. And they imitate it badly too. But girl tweens are the most annoying imo.

Eve_Dublin

metrovelvet wrote: »

Also because people dont let their kids out as much so there are a lot of toys being bought for indoor entertainment and much more tv watching now.

I find Irish girls imitate american tv far more than american girls do. And they imitate it badly too. But girl tweens are the most annoying imo.

Yeah definitely. It's actually the weirdest phenomenon...children from a different country speaking like the teenagers from MTV. I was visiting Dublin the past week and had a Spanish friend visit. He wanted to know why the young people spoke like Americans...THAT'S how obvious it is. You're right, we watch more telly and even the presenters on our own stations sound like Americans. Really bizarre. It's a pity they're only picking up on the insipid aspects of American teen culture...I think the bombardment of American telly is even more detrimental to the conditioning of children than insisting your kids play with a Barbie instead of a Ben 10 (I've still no idea what a Ben 10 is...have to Google it).

Interesting topic though.

metrovelvet

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Yeah definitely. It's actually the weirdest phenomenon...children from a different country speaking like the teenagers from MTV. I was visiting Dublin the past week and had a Spanish friend visit. He wanted to know why the young people spoke like Americans...THAT'S how obvious it is. You're right, we watch more telly and even the presenters on our own stations sound like Americans. Really bizarre. It's a pity they're only picking up on the insipid aspects of American teen culture...I think the bombardment of American telly is even more detrimental to the conditioning of children than insisting your kids play with a Barbie instead of a Ben 10 (I've still no idea what a Ben 10 is...have to Google it).

Interesting topic though.

I don't know. I am American and I don't think they sound american. I dont know what they sound like.

Some of the presenters make me want to cringe. Do you know how wrong it sounds when a foreigner uses slang, local inflection and dialect.

Yeah, its really complex. Ireland is always looks to America and England to tell it what to do, how to do it, in fact who to be. I would blame post colonialism, but America is also post colonial and you dont see the same sorts of mimicry and it does produce its own culture. It doesnt have six dead white guys hanging in a museum and call it a writers festival.

Eve_Dublin

metrovelvet wrote: »

Yeah, its really complex. Ireland is always looks to America and England to tell it what to do, how to do it, in fact who to be. I would blame post colonialism, but America is also post colonial and you dont see the same sorts of mimicry and it does produce its own culture. It doesnt have six dead white guys hanging in a museum and call it a writers festival.

Ireland does and has produced it's own culture as well in fairness. I don't get this point.

metrovelvet

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Ireland does and has produced it's own culture as well in fairness. I don't get this point.

It does? Like what? You mean Irish dancing or something?

Nevyn

Poor child to have such a moron as a Dad, Gwen is one of the chacters in the show, she is ben's older sister and is fairly kick ass. Hopefully she will not be limited by her father's views on what girls should and shouldnt' do.

metrovelvet

Thaedydal wrote: »

Poor child to have such a moron as a Dad, Gwen is one of the chacters in the show, she is ben's older sister and is fairly kick ass. Hopefully she will not be limited by her father's views on what girls should and shouldnt' do.

Yeah I know. But I do have to question myself. While I will dress my son in a pink polo shirt, if he wanted a pink tutu I'm not sure I would oblige.

Eve_Dublin

metrovelvet wrote: »

It does? Like what? You mean Irish dancing or something?

Are you telling me America has culture and Ireland doesn't? Do you want me to list off examples of Irish culture bar what you've encountered in your local Irish centre back in the States? Come on! Your comment is lazy and only proves that you expect culture to come knocking on your door.

metrovelvet

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Are you telling me America has culture and Ireland doesn't? Do you want me to list off examples of Irish culture bar what you've encountered in your local Irish centre back in the States? Come on! Your comment is lazy and only proves that you expect culture to come knocking on your door.

So yes, please list off some examples.

CK2010

i'm still trying to figure out why you put the word 'young' in bold (or even mentioned it at all) when you were talking about the father? I'm assuming you were acknowledging that its not just a generations thing but i could be wrong?? just curious as a young parent myself as to why you thought it was relevant, not nitpicking orgiving out just curious!

from the moment my girl was born i dressed her mainly in 'boys' clothes cause most of them were usually comfier looking than girls stuff (jeans instead of cords, blazers instead of hoodies) and i thought they were cute! and everyone would say 'aw what a cute little boy' (it didnt help that she had no hair!) and when id say its a girl they'd ask why shes dressed in boys clothes! even now she wears a prodrift hoodie like her dads. we buy her runners that are typically for boys because we prefer them. we dont intentionally go against the norms, its just what we, including our daughter, prefer.

she plays with all kinds of toys but her favourite is a pram, yet instead of using a pretty doll in it she has a quite ugly camo teddy that she picked out in the bear factory herself, out of all the cute girly ones! (OT- but when she was asked what she wanted to name him she said c.u.*.t!! :eek: its her new word which obviously means something else to her but we cant figure out what shes trying to say or where she got that word from!! )

and i dont think other parents intentionally condition their children or reproduce the norms. i think maybe some want their kids to not be left out, like if all the other girls have prams and their kid has a car they're not gonna be involved in the particular games they play. they want their kids to be part of the gang. maybe.

its also the shops and media that do alot of the conditioning and creating 'norms', they never have a boy playing with a buggy in their catalogue. their shops are segregated into boys toys and girls toys and you'll only see boys on the boxes of trucks/cars. parents just do whats normal- its not sinister or homophobic, its just normal.

I think the issue all depends on how headstrong the child is/is brought up to be and how traditional (for want of a better word) the parents are but i dont think a child should be denied a toy because its for a particular gender.

metrovelvet

^ Fair enough but if you had a boy and dressed him in girls clothes people would think you were weird.

Its far more acceptable for a female to dress in males clothes because male is the default, the general, the aspired to, the admirable.

CK2010

yeh i'l admit i probably wouldnt dress him in a skirt or the likes but i'd like to think that if he asked for something girly i wouldnt say no.

im not gonna say i definitely would because without being in thats situation its impossible to know, especially (in the case of older kids) when people are physically bullied/attacked for such differences, but it would definitely not be due to homophobia/fears/insecurities of my own or worries about how my child will turn out- if that makes sense?

Eve_Dublin

metrovelvet wrote: »

So yes, please list off some examples.

It's hardly relevant to the topic and I don't have the time to sit here and write down every single aspect of Irish culture but here's a link on Wikipedia. Just because it's not your thing, doesn't mean it doesn't as qualify as "culture".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_culture

I find a great deal of American culture insipid and boring (and a lot of it is imported and altered...Halloween and St Patricks Day anyone?) but I wouldn't deny it exists. It's a matter of taste.

I'm not shocked tbh. My daughter loves ben 10, she loves cars, lego, arts & crafts, action figures etc. She is not remotely interested in dolls, prams, playing house etc. The amount of people who comment on the fact that she is "such a boy" is unreal. I would never restrict the toys she plays with because of her gender. I often buy her "boys" pyjamas because they don't do ben 10 and the likes in the girls section.

What that man is teaching his child is entirely unhealthy imo, he is conditioning her to be the norm rather than to just be herself.

seenitall

Metrovelvet, off the top of my head, this is what is coming up as regards the contemporary Irish culture:

Abbey Theatre
U2
Seamus Heaney
Colum McCann
Cecelia Ahern (well, I did say off the top of my head! )
Neil Jordan
Gabriel Byrne, Liam Neeson, Colin Farrell, Brendan Gleeson, Fionnula Flanagan, Saoirse Ronan...

I am not very culturally clued in when it comes to different branches of arts, so these are just some of the most media exposed examples.

CK2010, I emphasized that the father was young because this was the major reason why I found that situation so... surprising (not to use any stronger expressions ). I think I would have had more understanding, somehow, if the father was of a different, older generation - I probably take it as a given by now that the older people in this country were raised very, very traditionally on the whole (i.e. under the all-powerful auspices of the Saint Catholic Church)... So I would have a more accepting attitude toward their unquestioning reinforcement of "given" gender differences and all other kinds of irrational, ahm, values. Times have changed, though, and I would have thought that the young people would be more clued in, more thinking. Hope that answers your question.

Personally I've always viewed Culture as being what sets us apart. Irish culture being more a type of personality like the Irish leaning towards sarcasm rather than the more obvious forms of humor. I certainly don't relate it to music or TV shows which are rather standardised these days. Nowadays I find it difficult to determine the difference in most western cultures with the exception of food influences, religion, politics, etc.

Regarding the original question, I think the shows themselves promote a certain bias towards either sex. I've been doing a lot of babysitting of my two nieces recently (aged 2 and 4), and its amazing the amount of programming I've noticed in the popular shows like Peppa Pig. There's a rather large emphasis on the female side rather than seeking a more balanced outlook. Actually I found Fireman Sam to be the most balanced of all the shows.

But I think the shows encourage a division of watchers with the exception of a few. And That probably relates to market research. Life & these shows have changed a lot since I was a kid, but there was always an emphasis on what girls should follow and what boys should follow. Just as there is a clear distinction with colors and dress codes. Some things float in the middle, but I believe thats from intent rather than coincidence.

And just to make the point, that in Asia this distinction is much greater and enforced. When I was doing kinder teaching in China, you could see where the emphasis was placed and such gender roles were enforced from a rather young age. The TV shows, clothes, etc just reinforced the parents/society's aims.

ceadaoin.

This reminds me of an article I read a few months ago about parents in Sweden who are raising their child 'gender neutral'. This is extreme but it would be interesting to see the results, although I'm not too sure about the ethics of basically using your child as a sociolology experiment :eek:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/jun/22/swedish-parents-baby-gender

The news that a Swedish couple have declined to reveal the gender of their two-and-a-half-year-old child prompts a few questions, the first of which is: to whom? The answer, apparently, is anyone who asks. The parents deflect casual inquiries by simply saying they don't disclose this information. And they are careful never to use personal pronouns, only referring to the child by its name, Pop.

The second question is: why? "We want Pop to grow up more freely and avoid being forced into a specific gender mould from the outset," says Pop's mother. "It's cruel to bring a child into the world with a blue or pink stamp on their forehead."

I have a grudging admiration for people who don't find parenting difficult enough on its own, and need to set little extra problems for themselves to keep it challenging. Pop has a wardrobe that includes trousers and dresses, and Pop popself mostly decides what Pop is going to wear each morning. Pop's hairstyle is also reimagined regularly so that Pop's look doesn't conform to gender stereotypes.

metrovelvet

I think Irish education is the most guilty party for this. State enforced segregation.

metrovelvet

metrovelvet wrote: »

I think Irish education is the most guilty party for this. State enforced segregation.

Strange... I went to mixed schools both in Primary and secondary. Sure, there were differences in uniforms and yet, interestingly enough two schools in my town have no difference between male/female uniforms - both wore slacks. The only real difference was the encouragement for girls to do home economics class, and the boys to do metalworking or woodworking. I understand that this has changed, and there's a lot more freedom to choose subjects than before.

I think you're passing the buck here. The parents tend to encourage the rules by deciding their kids will be sent to a certain school or to passively accept the rules of the school. I'd be inclined to look at the parents since they're the ones deciding how their children will be educated, how much freedom they receive, their extra-curricular activities, what TV they watch, etc.

metrovelvet

metrovelvet wrote: »

I think Irish education is the most guilty party for this. State enforced segregation.

So this wouldn't happen in any other country then? Rubbish.

The segregation of our education system is not state enforced, the only people who can enforce it is parents. There are plenty of co-ed schools out there.

metrovelvet

Deleted User wrote: »

So this wouldn't happen in any other country then? Rubbish.

The segregation of our education system is not state enforced, the only people who can enforce it is parents. There are plenty of co-ed schools out there.

Well I didn't know that. There are none in my area and I was told that is how Irish education is.

There are a couple out in the country that are mixed up until a certain age in primary and then they are segregated.

So the parents can insist on a mixed school? Because it looks to me like if I want my son in mixed education, I'll have to move, very far away.

Im sure it does happen in other countries. Who ever said it didn't? But we are talking about Ireland right?

My point about mixed schools isn't so much about different uniforms but about the opportunity to make friends with and compete with the opposite sex so that gender doesn't become such a huge proportion of defining identity and so the other doesn't become an object of fear and strangeness.

Chuchoter

To say that Irish education is largely co-ed isn't fair. We have one of the highest percentage of single sex schools in Europe.

Personally I think gender norms are so strongly pushed upon young children. I do a lot of babysitting for kids 0 and up. One of the families is one girl and two boys. They have different toys and different games, not because they don't like the other games, but because god help you if you try to get the boys to play a 'girls' game. Its less so for girls, but it really reminds me of that cement garden quote:

Girls can wear jeans and cut their hair short, wear shirts and boots, because it's OK to be a boy, but for a boy to look like a girl is degrading, because you think that being a girl is degrading.

I honestly think that attitude permeates all of society in very subtle ways, not just kids toys

prinz

I think this is a complete over-reaction tbh and misinterpretation of what was actually happening IMO. Seems to me that the father just flat out didn't want to be buying something for the little girl and used the 'oh that's for boys' line to brush off her request instead of saying a straight no. Have often heard parents tell kids of both genders 'oh that's for little kids, you're too big for that' etc. If you heard that would you worry about parents age-profiling/stereotyping?

seenitall

Well I have by now been told several times in this thread that I have over-reacted in my judgment of the situation. That's fine, I did after all want Irish people's opinions on this, however I still stand by my opinion of what this father was actually reinforcing with his daughter, whether or not his motivation was laziness, lack of imagination, latent fear of not conforming, or whatever else takes your fancy.

If I heard "oh that's for little kids, you're too big for that", on the proviso that it was blatantly untrue, I would be worried that the child's intelligence is being insulted, nothing more and nothing less. Maybe I am some weird, ultra-progessive, scary type of parent, but I cannot for the life of me imagine a scenario where I tell my daughter something similar as an obvious cop-out, when the actual reason "I can't spend money on this now/ We have more than enough plastic toys lying around the house at the moment and you know it" is really no more complicated to understand and has the added beauty of being the truth. I do like to think my daughter is intelligent, co-operative and reasonable enough to accept the truth. A cop-out such as you mentioned will just confuse her, as she is being told something that she feels and sees to be a lie.

goose2005

metrovelvet wrote: »

So yes, please list off some examples.

Ireland's theatre, literature and rock music are all highly regarded.