Can WWE accept a foreigner as a main event babyface?

jaykhunter

WWE is certainly a company built on stereotypes, the most pervasive of which is the evil foreigner.

I'm talking about true foreigners (ie from Europe, Asia etc). From the days of the Iron Sheik, Nikolai Volkoff and the Islanders, to Mr. Fuji, Yokozuna and Ludvig Borga, to William Regal and then La Resistance, right up to today's Sheamus, Drew McIntyre and Wade Barrett. Arguably, in the case of every one of them, their most successful run was as a heel, and their face run (if applicable) weren't long-lasting or over.

Why is it that seemingly all foreigners have to be heel? Because foreigners are evil. Ignorance, intolerance and xenophobia could be found almost anywhere. Americans want to get behind the patriotic american, the guy next door, the white-meat babyface to stir the crowd to feel good about themselves as 'one of their own' vanquishes the mysterious outsider, who hates 'our' country, and took our job.

Now it is possible to contend that maybe all of the aforementioned wrestlers aren't charismatic enough to pull off babyface, but I would rebut by saying that their face runs failed because America (i.e. most of the wrestling world) refuses to accept and get behind a foreigner, simply because they are foreign. The trope is ingrained so badly into their minds that anything else just doesn't work.

Before you rush to contend, I'm not talking about the inclusion of the "rest of the Americas" (i.e. Canada and Mexico) -- ruling out Edge, Benoit, Mysterio etc; who thanks to being connected by land, really isn't that foreign. By foreign I mean you have to get a plane to get into America! (Europe, Africa, Asia)

Is WWE, and America, able to accept a foreigner as a main event face? Can Sheamus, McIntyre or Barrett be cheered as loudly as they will be booed?

Pentecost

British Bulldog maybe? Though perhaps he wasn't main event he was still pretty popular at his peak.

Diabhal Beag

You've raised a good point but I think foreigners nowadays are the go-to heels.

Dancor

Khali?

I know he is not main event but he is over as a face.

Machismo Fan

TNA are trying with Rob Terry despite his infinite limitations. Well, Americans are some of the most xenophobic people on this planet. They're overly patriotic and they dislike foreigners in general so really it's just easier to cast a foreigner as a heel.

Vince135792003

I think Sheamus has the potential to be a very popular baby face.

amacachi

Foreigners with English as their first language would be far easier to get over as proper faces I'd've thought.

Syferus

Dancor wrote: »

Khali?

I know he is not main event but he is over as a face.

He's over in the same sense Hornswoggle is over with the crowd - as a skit character.

The WWE learnt fast that if Khali has any strengths it most certainly not as a wrestler.

Syferus

Vince135792003 wrote: »

I think Sheamus has the potential to be a very popular baby face.

I'd agree, mainly because Ireland still has huge emotional sway with much of America and indeed the McMahons' family name is a signifcant point in that column - Vince's great grandparents were Irish immigrants. There's been a truckload of charasmatic foreign wrestlers, it should be said. If he was, say, Australian or a New Zelander I could see it being a harder sell to management as well as for alot of the fans that don't think too deeply about all this. Wrestling does alot of things, but nuaced characters isn't one of them.

CMpunked

Was Finlay ever heel?

I know he has the whole "loves to fight" thing, but I think he got over as a face and has been since?

And santino?
I know... Comedy skit character..

Kofi was billed as jamacan and hasn't gone heel yet, but I guess he's sellable to kids.

Butch Cassidy

jaykhunter wrote: »

Is WWE, and America, able to accept a foreigner as a main event face? Can Sheamus, McIntyre or Barrett be cheered as loudly as they will be booed?

WWE broadcasts political propaganda and politically charged storylines. We all now what side of the right wing fence they sit on so is it really any surprise that anyone who isn't from North America is the bad guy? They've run bloody advertisements in support of illegal wars, invasions and occupations. Had French and French/Canadians as the bad guys during a time when France was a country that voiced muted opposition to their war on Iraq.

The political overtones WWF/WWE produce in their programming is at times nauseating. I don't know if there's an end in sight of propaganda on American telly whereby the foreigner is the bad guy comin in stealing my job, taxes& women so no I doubt there'll be a time when WWE would promote someone not American as a good guy. Hell, they've not even had a black WWF/WWE champ (Rock doesn't count).

Syferus

Butch Cassidy wrote: »

WWE broadcasts political propaganda and politically charged storylines. We all now what side of the right wing fence they sit on so is it really any surprise that anyone who isn't from North America is the bad guy? They've run bloody advertisements in support of illegal wars, invasions and occupations. Had French and French/Canadians as the bad guys during a time when France was a country that voiced muted opposition to their war on Iraq.

The political overtones WWF/WWE produce in their programming is at times nauseating. I don't know if there's an end in sight of propaganda on American telly whereby the foreigner is the bad guy comin in stealing my job, taxes& women so no I doubt there'll be a time when WWE would promote someone not American as a good guy. Hell, they've not even had a black WWF/WWE champ (Rock doesn't count).

It's the same stuff wrestling has been doing for years, not something intrinsict to the WWE. The Iron Sheik, anyone? St. Slaughter, a crazy American solider right when Vietnam veterns where at their most unstable? John Cena? Streotype is, like it or not, the bread and butter of wrestling. People don't watch Mad Men for fight scenes and likewise they don't watch wrestling for nuace. The evangelicals and conservatives that are the vast majority of the right in America sure love the tits and ass as well as the barbed wire and blood, right? It's too convienent to put labels like 'right-wing' on issues like these.

WWE regularly support US troops but you need to divorce what you regard as illegal wars from the bravery of people who put their lifes on the line for their country. You always hear the horror stories and not the vast majority who serve honourably - I think any attempt to make their time in a hellish environment better is a noble undertaking. The French and indeed Candians have long been typecast as villains in wrestling and at best it was at that point storyline opportunism and nothing more.

Management at WWE (read: the McMahons) are actually left of centre - the McMahons contributed handsomely to Obama's campaign in 2007-2008 and indeed that fact has became a mini-controversy for Linda McMahon and her senate run as a Republician. The reason she went Republician rather than Democrat had more to do with poltical opportunism than dyed-in-the-blood ideology.

On your last point I assume that you've forgotten Booker T's two championship reigns in WWE!

Mr. Guappa

I've noticed that recently the WWE have stepped away from the stereotypical foreign characters. The likes of Sheamus, Drew, Layla and The Usos have been portrayed as normal people who just happen to be foreigners. In the past The Usos would have been potrayed as Wild Samoan type characters, similarly Drew would have been a Highlander type.

Obviously all of the wrestlers I've mentioned are still heels, but I think the WWE are moving towards a stage where a foreigner can be a top-level babyface. Sheamus will make a great babyface IMO, he has great mannerisms and an attitude about him that I can see the American audience getting behind. His Summerslam interview on Sky Sports News was just class.. some slight tweaks and he would be a great babyface.

Ridley

CMpunked wrote: »

Was Finlay ever heel?

During his early WWE run, yes. As part of King Booker's court and the original Little Bastard stuff.

Bah, Finlay and Regal should still be a tag team. Not doing it during King Booker's reign was a logically misstep. And for a good bit of stereotyping, Finlay refusing to ever acknowledge his knighthood while Regal became overcome with emotion with his was great.

jaykhunter wrote: »

and took our job.

Dey took yer jerb?!

Butch Cassidy

Syferus wrote: »

It's the same stuff wrestling has been doing for years, not something intrinsict to the WWE. The Iron Sheik, anyone? St. Slaughter, a crazy American solider right when Vietnam veterns where at their most unstable? John Cena? Streotype is, like it or not, the bread and butter of wrestling. People don't watch Mad Men for fight scenes and likewise they don't watch wrestling for nuace. The evangelicals and conservatives that are the vast majority of the right in America sure love the tits and ass as well as the barbed wire and blood, right? It's too convienent to put labels like 'right-wing' on issues like these.

And these so-called pesky stereotypes just happen about by themselves is it? Massive media broadcasters and producers like WWE don't do anything to spread the stereotype at all and the "yellow man" would still be the bad guy even if that same message wasn't constantly piped out...

Syferus wrote: »

WWE regularly support US troops but you need to divorce what you regard as illegal wars from the bravery of people who put their lifes on the line for their country.

And that is propaganda - "yeah the war's terrible and all but ye know you've gotta support the troops". You're supporting war & the murder of innocent people by proxy.

Syferus wrote: »

The French and indeed Candians have long been typecast as villains in wrestling and at best it was at that point storyline opportunism and nothing more.

It was a coincidence that at a time when France were vocal about opposing America's war and invasion on Iraq they had some mock French characters as heels against the good guy who was waving an American flag? And that's mere opportunism? That whole angle was dreadful! Pretty much any of their jingoistic, xenophobic or racist storylines were awful with the USA vs. Canada/Hart vs Austin run from 1997 being the one exception though that wasn't politically motivated I don't think.

Syferus wrote: »

On your last point I assume that you've forgotten Booker T's two championship reigns in WWE!

The World Championship isn't the WWF/WWE title.

Rjd2

They already have.

His name is Chris Masters the MAIN EVENTER FROM HEAVEN.

Ridley

So how does The Rock not count?

rossie1977

Ridley wrote: »

So how does The Rock not count?

he was born in america

thing is what % of non-north american born wrestlers have worked for the e over the years, i would estimate a tiny amount in the grand scheme of things, handful of british/irish, couple of asians, few eastern europeans and thats it really

one foreign born man who was loved by the fans was andre the giant

Syferus

Butch Cassidy wrote: »

And these so-called pesky stereotypes just happen about by themselves is it? Massive media broadcasters and producers like WWE don't do anything to spread the stereotype at all and the "yellow man" would still be the bad guy even if that same message wasn't constantly piped out...




And that is propaganda - "yeah the war's terrible and all but ye know you've gotta support the troops". You're supporting war & the murder of innocent people by proxy.



It was a coincidence that at a time when France were vocal about opposing America's war and invasion on Iraq they had some mock French characters as heels against the good guy who was waving an American flag? And that's mere opportunism? That whole angle was dreadful! Pretty much any of their jingoistic, xenophobic or racist storylines were awful with the USA vs. Canada/Hart vs Austin run from 1997 being the one exception though that wasn't politically motivated I don't think.




The World Championship isn't the WWF/WWE title.

Let's start from the bottom up; Booker T won the WCW World Championship after The Invasion in 2001, and to disregard it because it's not the WWE's orignal belt is pedantic at best as both were (and still are) recognised as valid world titles. It's matterless, though, because Booker T also had a World Championship reign long after both titles had been interchanged between Raw and Smackdown so much that any argument against validity had been long since been devalued.

As I said about the French and French-Canadian (to be exact) streotypes, it was storyline opportunism, not some attempt the validate a war. No one is arguing the crassness of the stereotyping but to attack it along racial lines alone is wrong - there's been enough hillbilly, upper-east side elites and cowboy gimmicks to fill a hundred Wrestlemania cards. It is the nature of the business and it's been in the blood of the industry for as long as it's been entertainement.

As has been said in this thread, it's all the harder of an argument to make at a time when WWE has been pushing many foreign and domestic wrestlers without the aid of stereotypical gimmicks.

''And that is propaganda - "yeah the war's terrible and all but ye know you've gotta support the troops". You're supporting war & the murder of innocent people by proxy.''

I never said 'the' war was 'terrible', indeed the two wars that have dominated the past decade are signular beasts in terms of cause and validity and whenever I see them lumped together it does belie the 'propaganda' of the opposite political spectrum to the one you're rallying against. Everyone loves to feel like their opinion is validated by others and one of the biggest issues I've always seen is that neither side is able to have the good humour to realise they're usually as blinkered as the ones they oppose.

But I digress. The WWE get good publicity from supporting troops, but to say that supporting indivduals in the armed forces is paramount to supporting war and the 'murder' of innocent people is tarring individuals in a - sadly - necessary entity in today's world with the brush of poltical machinations and the deplorable actions of the few. Hope for a better future by all means, but don't disregard the realities of the present.

CMpunked

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

I've noticed that recently the WWE have stepped away from the stereotypical foreign characters. The likes of Sheamus, Drew, Layla and The Usos have been portrayed as normal people who just happen to be foreigners. In the past The Usos would have been potrayed as Wild Samoan type characters, similarly Drew would have been a Highlander type.

You think the highlanders went into wwe, grew those beards and used that gimmick?
They looked like that a while before wwe.
That's what got them the contracts.

I think it's easier to break someone in as a heel and then if they go the distance, turn them face.

Obviously it's a lot harder to have someone who is from a different country get over than having them get some recognition for being disliked, obviously they are easier to notice or something.

Mr. Guappa

CMpunked wrote: »

You think the highlanders went into wwe, grew those beards and used that gimmick?
They looked like that a while before wwe.
That's what got them the contracts.

I think it's easier to break someone in as a heel and then if they go the distance, turn them face.

Obviously it's a lot harder to have someone who is from a different country get over than having them get some recognition for being disliked, obviously they are easier to notice or something.

No, I'm sure that The Highlanders got hired because their look fitted the stereotypical wild Scot profile. My point was that more recently they have moved away from hiring these stereotypical type characters.

waltersobchak

As far as US propaganda, WWE seriously missed the boat with Team Angle vs La Resistance back in the day circa 2003..

DM_7

Yes I think WWE can accept a foreiner as a main event babyface.

Most foreigners are portrayed as heels as its easy. In recent times the main event level baby faces all came from North/South America. Any main event heels from outside North/South America (That i can think of) were short term gigs like Khali.

In recent times WWE have never relied on foreign talent so they have never pushed them as main event baby faces or even long term main event level heels. Its obvious that Sheamus is going to be around for a very long time, he can talk, he can do it in the ring and he has a great look. A time will come when fans will naturally start to shout for him like they did with Orton. Then instead of Sheamus running down america he will be saying how great the place is.

So I think its a simple case of talent, if a foreign guy has the talent to get to the main event and stay there then he will be able to get over as a face.

Mr.Nice Guy

I think in future overseas babyfaces will be a lot more common. I think Kingston has the potential to be a very popular main event babyface, although I worry he's a bit two dimensional.

I would be a bit concerned about Sheamus as a babyface. I think it can work but I hope he stays heel for a good while yet because I fear if it happened in the near future it could see him in the mid-card.

glenjamin

Even though he was born in the USA, Kofi has been billed from first Jamaica and then Ghana. He's got the potential to be a future main eventer as well as the pop that comes with being a successful face.

Butch Cassidy

DM-ICE wrote: »

Yes I think WWE can accept a foreiner as a main event babyface.

.

Perhaps the original question was a little loaded. "WWE" is the promoter and they don't accept or reject anything, they promote and through their booking they have a certain amount of control over who comes across as good, bad, really strong or quite weak.

Some fans have rejected Cena. Would their fanbase accept someone who isn't a white, English speaking American as a good guy? It depends how he's booked.

Dusty Rhodes booked Nikita Koloff as a face towards the end of the 80s after having been a stereotypical evil commie....

JP Liz V1

Vince135792003 wrote: »

I think Sheamus has the potential to be a very popular baby face.

Yes I think this will happen

I think it mostly depends on the wrestler and his gimmick tbh not where he comes from

jaykhunter

Just for clarification

Can WWE accept a foreigner as a main event babyface?

I meant the WWE audience; I just wanted to be as short but specific as I could be. The WWE i'm sure will push them, but will WWE's main arena-going audience (i.e. Americans) accept it?

Butch Cassidy

jaykhunter wrote: »

I meant the WWE audience; I just wanted to be as short but specific as I could be. The WWE i'm sure will push them, but will WWE's main arena-going audience (i.e. Americans) accept it?

American audience's stereotypical misconceptions - and indeed many audiences of the western world - are influenced and shaped by what they see on the box. If they tried to book a wrestler from the "middle east" as a face then that might be nigh on impossible considering the rest of the propaganda everywhere else that tell you "these people are the enemiez". Anyone else I assume is fair game. It's all down to the booking. They might reject it but do they usually?

Audiences rejected Austin and The Rock as heels and now some reject Cena as a face. Nothing to do with them being foreign though.

rossie1977

glenjamin wrote: »

Even though he was born in the USA, Kofi has been billed from first Jamaica and then Ghana. He's got the potential to be a future main eventer as well as the pop that comes with being a successful face.

kofi was born in the ghana, his family moved to the states when he was 2-3 years old

DM_7

jaykhunter wrote: »

Just for clarification



I meant the WWE audience; I just wanted to be as short but specific as I could be. The WWE i'm sure will push them, but will WWE's main arena-going audience (i.e. Americans) accept it?

At the end of the day WWE or WWE audience is the same thing. If Vince Accepts a guy as main event level and the fans don't they don't stay there for long.