Size of Dail Eireann vs Australian Parliament

henryporter

Listening to the news I was struck by the following figures:

Population of Australia: Approx 22M
Nr. of Seats in Australian Parliament: 150

Population of Ireland: Approx 5M
Nr. of Seats in Dail Eireann: 166

Is there something wrong with this picture (as usual)?

oppenheimer1

It would appear that the population of Australia is under represented if you go by the cube root rule.

Einhard

henryporter wrote: »

Listening to the news I was struck by the following figures:

Population of Australia: Approx 22M
Nr. of Seats in Australian Parliament: 150

Population of Ireland: Approx 5M
Nr. of Seats in Dail Eireann: 166

Is there something wrong with this picture (as usual)?

I'm sure your local TD would claim it shows that Ireland is more democratic than Australia...

ninty9er

Ireland
No. of seats in Dáil Éireann: 166
No. of seats in Seanad Éireann: 60

Population: 4.5 million

Cubed root: 165

Overrepresented by 61 with approx 20,000 population per member of the oireachtas.

UK
No. of seats in the House of Commons: 650
No. of seats in the House of Lords: 722
No. of seats in the Northern Ireland Assembly: 108
No. of seats in the Scottish Parliament: 129
No. of seats in the Welsh Assembly: 60

Population: 62 million

Cubed root: 395

Overrepresented by 1,274 members with approx 37,000 population per member of parliaments

Germany
No. of seats in the Bundesrat: 170
No. of seats in the Bundestag: 622

Population: 80 million

Cubed root: 430

Overrepresented by 362 members at approx 101,000 per member of parliament.

Germany is however a federation of staed with delegated taxation and legislative powers in certain competencies. The Bundesrat is made up of representatives of each of the 16 federal states.

Cubed root theory is accessible in Lutz's Principles of Constitutional Design.

Edit:
It would give Australia a representation of approx 280.

Australia also has a Senate of 76 members, meaning that it has the exact same amount of members of parliament as us.

Liam Byrne

It's quality that's the problem, not quantity.

GSF

Liam Byrne wrote: »

It's quality that's the problem, not quantity.

Both really. They cost too much each and the majority of them are just voting fodder.

Rubik.

The likelihood of tds voting to reduce the number of tds is fairly remote.

sceptre

Australia, don't forget, also runs a federal system by which certain powers have been ceded to the federal government by the states (derogation of their own powers requires a constitutional amendment and national referendum) and territories (their powers can be altered or abolished by the commonwealth parliament), with the ability to raise and impose taxes.

State and territory parliaments add another 583 representatives (NSW: 42+93, Qld: 89, SA: 22+47, Tas: 25, Vic: 40+88, WA: 36+59, ACT: 17, NT: 25). Add another 150 for the federal House of Representatives and 76 for the Senate to make a total legislature of 809 representatives.

Tiny bit overrepresented according to the cube root rule (strict division proportionally far more than us as it happens). Country's population is 22.4 million so that's also one member of parliament per 27,700 people.

Nodin

henryporter wrote: »

Listening to the news I was struck by the following figures:

Population of Australia: Approx 22M
Nr. of Seats in Australian Parliament: 150

Population of Ireland: Approx 5M
Nr. of Seats in Dail Eireann: 166

Is there something wrong with this picture (as usual)?

Doesn't Australia have a number of regional parliaments.....? Five or six of them, I think.....

Nodin

sceptre wrote: »

Australia, don't forget, also runs a federal system by which certain powers have been ceded to the federal government by the states (derogation of their own powers requires a constitutional amendment and national referendum) and territories (their powers can be altered or abolished by the commonwealth parliament), with the ability to raise and impose taxes. State and territory parliaments add another 583 representatives (NSW: 42+93, Qld: 89, SA: 22+47, Tas: 25, Vic: 40+88, WA: 36+59, ACT: 17, NT: 25, making a legislative total of 733. How's that cube root rule looking now?

You and yer one minute before me informed observations......

sceptre

Nodin wrote: »

You and yer one minute before me informed observations......

Snap! I left out the Senate too, which adds another 76, making the total 809 rather than 733. I've edited my post above accordingly and redivided the figure for population per parliament member.

Nodin

sceptre wrote: »

Snap! I left out the Senate too, which adds another 76, making the total 809 rather than 733. I've edited my post above accordingly and redivided the figure for population per parliament member.

I would have done that, only it takes too long to put the boots and socks back on....

Min

Get rid of half of the politicians in the Dáil plus get rid of the Senate, just give the president a little extra power for the same money.

Between their salary, expenses and pensions it would save many millions every year and I bet no one would notice any difference in governance.

mikemac

Rubik. wrote: »

The likelihood of tds voting to reduce the number of tds is fairly remote.

TD's can't just vote to change it, they don't have that much power

Article 16.2 of the Constitution

1° Dáil Éireann shall be composed of members who represent constituencies determined by law.

2° The number of members shall from time to time be fixed by law, but the total number of members of Dáil Éireann shall not be fixed at less than one member for each thirty thousand of the population, or at more than one member for each twenty thousand of the population.

3° The ratio between the number of members to be elected at any time for each constituency and the population of each constituency, as ascertained at the last preceding census, shall, so far as it is practicable, be the same throughout the country.

4° The Oireachtas shall revise the constituencies at least once in every twelve years, with due regard to changes in distribution of the population, but any alterations in the constituencies shall not take effect during the life of Dáil Éireann sitting when such revision is made.

It goes to a referendum if this is to be changed.
The constitution was voted on and accepted in 1937.

It certainly can be amended but it seems a lot of posters think we can just sign a law and abolish the Senate and change the Dail in the morning. It goes to a vote first.

Nijmegen

Yes, but the vote on a referendum has to come from somewhere, usually the TD's themselves.

baalthor

Abolishing the Senate would effectively require a new constitution.

Iwasfrozen

ninty9er wrote: »

Ireland
No. of seats in Dáil Éireann: 166
No. of seats in Seanad Éireann: 60

Population: 4.5 million

Cubed root: 165

Overrepresented by 61 with approx 20,000 population per member of the oireachtas.

UK
No. of seats in the House of Commons: 650
No. of seats in the House of Lords: 722
No. of seats in the Northern Ireland Assembly: 108
No. of seats in the Scottish Parliament: 129
No. of seats in the Welsh Assembly: 60

Population: 62 million

Cubed root: 395

Overrepresented by 1,274 members with approx 37,000 population per member of parliaments

Germany
No. of seats in the Bundesrat: 170
No. of seats in the Bundestag: 622

Population: 80 million

Cubed root: 430

Overrepresented by 362 members at approx 101,000 per member of parliament.

Germany is however a federation of staed with delegated taxation and legislative powers in certain competencies. The Bundesrat is made up of representatives of each of the 16 federal states.

Cubed root theory is accessible in Lutz's Principles of Constitutional Design.

Edit:
It would give Australia a representation of approx 280.

Australia also has a Senate of 76 members, meaning that it has the exact same amount of members of parliament as us.

United States of America
No. of seats in the Senate: 100
No. of seats in the House of Representatives: 435

Population: 307 million

Cubed root: 674

Under represented by 139 with aprox 573,831 population per member of congress.

ninty9er

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

United States of America
No. of seats in the Senate: 100
No. of seats in the House of Representatives: 435

Population: 307 million

Cubed root: 674

Under represented by 139 with aprox 573,831 population per member of congress.

There are also 50 states. Each with a governer and state assemblies.

Taking Illinois and Alaska as examples:
Illinois
No. of seats in State House of Representatives: 118
No. of seats in State Senate: 59

Alaska
No. of seats in State House of Representatives: 40
No. of seats in State Senate: 20

Taking 118 as the average using these 2 as I really couldn't be bothered checking all 50 states, that gives a total of 5,900+535= 6,435

Almost 10 times the cubed root. This is also partially true of Germany, although the German federal system means the Minister-President from each of the 16 states sits un the Bundesrat, which isn't actually, technically, an upper house.

Iwasfrozen

ninty9er wrote: »

There are also 50 states. Each with a governer and state assemblies.

Taking Illinois and Alaska as examples:
Illinois
No. of seats in State House of Representatives: 118
No. of seats in State Senate: 59

Alaska
No. of seats in State House of Representatives: 40
No. of seats in State Senate: 20

Taking 118 as the average using these 2 as I really couldn't be bothered checking all 50 states, that gives a total of 5,900+535= 6,435

Almost 10 times the cubed root. This is also partially true of Germany, although the German federal system means the Minister-President from each of the 16 states sits un the Bundesrat, which isn't actually, technically, an upper house.

But should we really count state legislatures? Since their powers are limited by the federal system.

expectationlost

hmm is the senate supposed to be included, i thought professor david farrell suggested we were the right size, not 60 over

JustinDee

henryporter wrote: »

Listening to the news I was struck by the following figures:

Population of Australia: Approx 22M
Nr. of Seats in Australian Parliament: 150

Population of Ireland: Approx 5M
Nr. of Seats in Dail Eireann: 166

Is there something wrong with this picture (as usual)?

How many State governments does Ireland have?

ISAW

Min wrote: »

Get rid of half of the politicians in the Dáil plus get rid of the Senate, just give the president a little extra power for the same money.

Between their salary, expenses and pensions it would save many millions every year and I bet no one would notice any difference in governance.

Really? who will deal with the EU legislation when you only have six weeks to do so under the Lisbon treaty?

ISAW

JustinDee wrote: »

How many State governments does Ireland have?

Excluding Northern Ireland eight regional assemblies:

http://www.environ.ie/en/Links/LocalAuthorities/RegionalAuthorities/

JustinDee

ISAW wrote: »

Excluding Northern Ireland eight regional assemblies:

http://www.environ.ie/en/Links/LocalAuthorities/RegionalAuthorities/

As I said, there are no state governments in Ireland.
No parliaments apart from Dail Eireann with ministers only appointed to the only cabinets which happen to be in Dail Eireann. Wholly different to Aussie. Your example above is nothing like the Australian parliamental system.