Pakistan V Haiti

NickDrake

Hey guys

It really is terrible what has happened in Pakistan.

It seems to be a LOT worse that what happened in Haiti.

But where are the cake sales? Where are the fun runs.

Was Haiti fund just a masssive bandwagon by people?

What has happened in Pakistan is way worse and no fundraising in sight.

Whats going on???

Malari

I found this interesting too. I don't think there's just one reason. In Ireland I'd imagine a lot of it has to do with the fairly high profile Haiti already had. I know several people who had been to Haiti before the earthquake to do building projects. It probably had a more real impact on a lot of Irish people.

It's also difficult to give the same to two massive disasters in the one year, especially in touch financial times. And there is a perception that the funds won't get through to aid workers but end up in the hands of the Taliban.

I actually think it might be the nature of the natural disaster too. An earthquake is instantly devastating. Floods, especially in a country that has a monsoon season, are perhaps viewed as less of an impact. And don't forget how Ireland was affected by flooding last winter. Of course, I'm not comparing the two, but people here were heavily impacted by houses and posessions being destroyed. I just don't think floods have the same level of shock (no pun intended) as an earthquake does.

I'm not justifying any of the above reasons, by the way, just have been thinking about it for the last week.

stomprockin

It's wired. I have been just chatting about this in work.

Where are all the fundraising events? I remember when the tsunami hit South east Asia the donations boxes where in your face! and this disaster is way of the scale.

irishh_bob

if someone wished to make a donation , which is the best charity in terms of the percentage which actually ends up reaching the people as opposed to paying for 1st class air tickets for the charity head

irish red cross
goal
trocaire

?????

Bottle_of_Smoke

Was there a higher mortality rate with the earthquake? That always gets bigger headlines and therefore more donations/fundraising events

Denerick

I find myself very apathetic over all this. For a start, Pakistan has a massive military and a nuclear arsenal. Secondly, I don't see why it should be a western 'obligation' to rush in. The Saudi's are offering a measly 100 million, the UAE, to my knowledge, have given pennies away. Compare this with the 350 million investment one of their sovreign wealth funds have used to buy players at Manchester City.

The Muslim world should be doing more to help their own. There are shades of 'white mans burden' in all of this.

Nodin

Denerick wrote: »

I find myself very apathetic over all this. For a start, Pakistan has a massive military and a nuclear arsenal. Secondly, I don't see why it should be a western 'obligation' to rush in. The Saudi's are offering a measly 100 million, ......

...which is 10 million more than the EU donation....

The Davestator

Pakistan are quite a wealthy country, Haiti was / is not.

Its similar to when Katrinia hit the USA, we didn't really send any money, but we were affected by it much more than this flood in Pakistan.

Also, we're used to helping out Africa etc, but the attitude of muslims, islam etc to cartoons, stoning, suicide bombings etc leave me for one feeling a bit unsympathetic.

Denerick

Nodin wrote: »

...which is 10 million more than the EU donation....

Thanks for missing the point of my post.

I'm arguing that given the massive wealth in various oil rich Islamic countries, the least they could do would be to lead the relief efforts. I'm not convinced that the white man has any intrinsic duty to be the first on the scene and to do all the legwork. Why do you assume it is? I think its inverse racism.

El_Drago

The Davestator wrote: »

Pakistan are quite a wealthy country, Haiti was / is not.

Its similar to when Katrinia hit the USA, we didn't really send any money, but we were affected by it much more than this flood in Pakistan.

Also, we're used to helping out Africa etc, but the attitude of muslims, islam etc to cartoons, stoning, suicide bombings etc leave me for one feeling a bit unsympathetic.

Denerick wrote: »

Thanks for missing the point of my post.

I'm arguing that given the massive wealth in various oil rich Islamic countries, the least they could do would be to lead the relief efforts. I'm not convinced that the white man has any intrinsic duty to be the first on the scene and to do all the legwork. Why do you assume it is? I think its inverse racism.

Why does religion or race have to brought into this? God help the world if in this day and age these things cross our mind in the midst of such atrocities

Denerick

El_Drago wrote: »

Why does religion or race have to brought into this? God help the world if in this day and age these things crosses our minds in the midst of such atrocities

There is an inherent expectation that Europe/America (IE, the white man - this is an allusion to the chauvinistic poem by Rudyard Kipling, 'The White Man's Burden') should shoulder and lead the major relief efforts. I'm questioning that considering the armed forces of Pakistan and the immense wealth of some of her co-religionists, that fellow Islamic countries should be leading the relief efforts.

El_Drago

Denerick wrote: »

There is an inherent expectation that Europe/America (IE, the white man - this is an allusion to the chauvinistic poem by Rudyard Kipling, 'The White Man's Burden') should shoulder and lead the major relief efforts. I'm questioning that considering the armed forces of Pakistan and the immense wealth of some of her co-religionists, that fellow Islamic countries should be leading the relief efforts.

I,for one, don't know what "inherent expectation" you are on referring to. If such an expectation does indeed exist,it's subjective.Although the Pakistani army should be doing alot more,expecting any one particular race or religion to lead relief efforts is wrong in my book .After all,such disasters are humanitarian ones,not christian,jewish,muslim,white or black.

losthorizon

Part of the reason is that RTE are on their holidays and cant be bothered reporting the news properly

diddley

El_Drago wrote: »

I,for one, don't know what "inherent expectation" you are on referring to. If such an expectation does indeed exist,it's subjective.Although the Pakistani army should be doing alot more,expecting any one particular race or religion to lead relief efforts is wrong in my book .After all,such disasters are humanitarian ones,not christian,jewish,muslim,white or black.

That's nice and all, but if you're a devout believer you'll no doubt feel an affiliation to the others members of your "club", whatever that might be.

Denerick

El_Drago wrote: »

I,for one, don't know what "inherent expectation" you are on referring to. If such an expectation does indeed exist,it's subjective.Although the Pakistani army should be doing alot more,expecting any one particular race or religion to lead relief efforts is wrong in my book .After all,such disasters are humanitarian ones,not christian,jewish,muslim,white or black.

I agree with the sentiments, but this is simply not how it plays out in reality. There is an expectation that the west should shoulder a higher burden than other regions - acceptable in many cases, not only because we tend to be wealthier than the rest of the world combined but also because of a collective legacy of colonialism. There is a certain amount of guilt involved.

The Muslim world, whose nominal leaders in terms of GDP are Saudi Arabia and the UAE, should be playing a major part as this is their backdoor. Haiti, for example, is a Christian country on America's doorstep so intervention there seems both logical and compassionate. I'm more than happy for the west to contribute and contribute generously, but I don't think those countries have an inherent entitlement to western generosity, and I'm criticising those in western countries who feel that they do and those in the east who criticise the west for failing to intervene more.

Charity begins at home, and all that.

In short, I'm trying to understand why such apathy exists, and I can only conclude that it is mainly down to the militarisation of Pakistani society and the dearth of activity amongst incredly rich Muslim governments.

Rubik.

Denerick wrote: »

The Muslim world, whose nominal leaders in terms of GDP are Saudi Arabia and the UAE, should be playing a major part as this is their backdoor. Haiti, for example, is a Christian country on America's doorstep so intervention there seems both logical and compassionate. I'm more than happy for the west to contribute and contribute generously, but I don't think those countries have an inherent entitlement to western generosity, and I'm criticising those in western countries who feel that they do and those in the east who criticise the west for failing to intervene more.

Charity begins at home, and all that.

In short, I'm trying to understand why such apathy exists, and I can only conclude that it is mainly down to the militarisation of Pakistani society and the dearth of activity amongst incredly rich Muslim governments.

According to The Financial Tracking Service, a UN database which tracks donations, The United States has given most, followed by Saudi Arabia and Britain.

irishh_bob

The Davestator wrote: »

Pakistan are quite a wealthy country, Haiti was / is not.

Its similar to when Katrinia hit the USA, we didn't really send any money, but we were affected by it much more than this flood in Pakistan.

Also, we're used to helping out Africa etc, but the attitude of muslims, islam etc to cartoons, stoning, suicide bombings etc leave me for one feeling a bit unsympathetic.

all countrys with enormous populations look relativley wealthy when you look at thier GDP figures , in reality , pakistan is not at all wealthy and besides , no country could be uneffected by the scale of devastation , that they have a nuclear arsenal is a complete red herring

Denerick

Rubik. wrote: »

According to The Financial Tracking Service, a UN database which tracks donations, The United States has given most, followed by Saudi Arabia and Britain.

Yes, they pledged a lot of money in the last couple of weeks, mainly due to the injustices I've already mentioned. I see no reason why they aren't pledging much much more than 100 million. They can easily afford it, they've been a net creditor for decades and have no government debt to speak of.

Rubik.

Denerick wrote: »

Yes, they pledged a lot of money in the last couple of weeks, mainly due to the injustices I've already mentioned. I see no reason why they aren't pledging much much more than 100 million. They can easily afford it, they've been a net creditor for decades and have no government debt to speak of.

Between 2006 and 2008, Saudi Arabia provided Pakistan with over $1.5 billion in loans and aid, including $700 million pledged at the donor conference in Tokyo on April 17, 2009.

Since 1978, its foreign aid has averaged well above the official UN goal of 0.7% of total GDP.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Saudi-Arabia-donates-80-mn-more-for-flood-hit-Pakistan/Article1-589264.aspx

Denerick

Rubik. wrote: »

Between 2006 and 2008, Saudi Arabia provided Pakistan with over $1.5 billion in loans and aid, including $700 million pledged at the donor conference in Tokyo on April 17, 2009.

Since 1978, its foreign aid has averaged well above the official UN goal of 0.7% of total GDP.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Saudi-Arabia-donates-80-mn-more-for-flood-hit-Pakistan/Article1-589264.aspx

hmm...

You enjoyed that too much

losthorizon

Rubik. wrote: »

According to The Financial Tracking Service, a UN database which tracks donations, The United States has given most, followed by Saudi Arabia and Britain.

However all these countrys provide tied aid something Ireland and countrys like Finland dont. Tied aid isnt in a lot of cases very effective and is just a way of (a) gaining export orders and (b) making countrys buy things they dont want.

A lot of US aid is tied so they might give Pakistan say $2million to buy Americam typewriters when the money should be spent on providing something like wells or teacher training etc.

Fuinseog

NickDrake wrote: »

Hey guys

It really is terrible what has happened in Pakistan.

It seems to be a LOT worse that what happened in Haiti.

But where are the cake sales? Where are the fun runs.

Was Haiti fund just a masssive bandwagon by people?

What has happened in Pakistan is way worse and no fundraising in sight.

Whats going on???

pakistan is something of a 'rogue state' that threatens US world domination. it is to be treated with caution. it shelters the Taliban. any money donated could go towards the victims but also towards buying weapons for the boys. you cannot say teh same about Haiti.

Nodin

Denerick wrote: »

Thanks for missing the point of my post.

I'm arguing that given the massive wealth in various oil rich Islamic countries, the least they could do would be to lead the relief efforts. I'm not convinced that the white man has any intrinsic duty to be the first on the scene and to do all the legwork. Why do you assume it is? I think its inverse racism.

I was unaware that we in the West were supposed to worry about who was what religion, but gave in regard to need.

Secondly, the "various oil rich Islamic countries" have given generously.

Nodin

Denerick wrote: »

Yes, they pledged a lot of money in the last couple of weeks, mainly due to the injustices I've already mentioned. I see no reason why they aren't pledging much much more than 100 million. They can easily afford it, they've been a net creditor for decades and have no government debt to speak of.

Do you actually have any notion of what you're on about?

Denerick

Nodin wrote: »

Do you actually have any notion of what you're on about?

Thats a strange question.

Nodin

It just came to the forefront of my mind, for some reason....

Liberalbrehon

I heard over the weekend that people there basically live in serfdom, very rich (maybe not so now) landlords rent out land to tenants who have to pay with half their crops if they can afford deposit and 3/4 if not. Most tenants are illiterate renting out a few acres of land. The country is way over-populated. It spends billions on army and nuclear programme. Basically the rich in that country don't give a dam about the poor people of lower caste system. Is it up to the West (which has its own problems) taking ownership for this problem as well? Haiti is still in a mess. I haven't heard of the Islamic organisation donating billions to Pakistan. I know people are suffering but there are 6.5 billion people in the world and growing fast. Alot don't have fresh water, etc Surely this firefighting of disasters just can't keep going on.

Where does the money go? 50 years of Western Charity doesn't seem to have achieved anything in developing world and possibly made matters worse. Granted at a local level some help is always welcome to the downtrodden. Surely there is a better way. I'll tell you a land value tax on landowners in Pakistan would make a difference. Charity I don't think will. If governments can't/won't educate their population then poverty will always be here. No government charity should be given to any developing country with an nuclear programme i.m.o. Giving money to Pakistan is basically keeping another generation tied into serfdom. Hopefully Haiti won't resort back to old ways of running themselves.

Nodin

Liberalbrehon wrote: »

........ I haven't heard of the Islamic organisation donating billions to Pakistan............

"the islamic organisation"....?

Did you look?

Liberalbrehon

Nodin wrote: »

"the islamic organisation"....?

Did you look?

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/world/06-world-islamic-body-appeals-for-urgent-aid-to-pakistan-rs-02

not much so far. €5 million from Kuwait that's the same as India who they are practically at constant war with.
Abu Dabi gave Dubai €100 billion or some crazy sum to shore up the property scam there. Seems they have their priorities right...a bit like here...doesn't matter the religion...property developers and banks always win out...

Bill2673

There are a lot of comments here about Pakistan as a nation or country......pakistan is a rogue state, pakistan is a wealthy country etc.

First of all Pakistan is not a wealthy country. Its an incredibly poor country. Granted, its not as poor as Haiti. But the level of poor we are talking is this: If you earn €100 per day (which many Irish people do), then a typical Pakistani farmer earns €5 per day while a Haitian might earn €3 per day. Thats the level we are talking about here.

Second, yes Pakistan has corrupt politicians and a nuclear arsenal. But that is in no way the fault of the millions of poor farmers who have been affected by the floods. Lets not confuse the 'state' which is a bunch of wealthy Cambridge graduates living in Islamabad, with the wider populace, which is 90 million poor people.

I've wrestled with this issue myself, of 'if I donate money, then does it go to a corrupt politician, or to a charity firms bureacracy'. I think you have to take it on faith that the likes of Goal and Concern live on their reputatations; they are well used to dealing with these sort of countries (what third world nation is not corrupt, and every bit as corrupt as Pakistan), and that they know how to deploy funds where it counts.

I think the issue has been well covered in the media. The Irish Times has covered it very well for example. RTE maybe less so, but in this day and age, do really need to rely on RTE for TV newsfeeds.

Its noteable that it took a long time for a thread to appear on Boards on the subject. Given the sh*te thats talked elsewhere on the site (for example, 391 posts on the new Sylvester stallone movie The Expendables).....I though that was a bit disappointing.

Bill2673

Final comment:

People going on about Saudi Arabia as if it is some big economic powerhouse. It has a GDP the same size as Norway. Is Norway 5% of EU GDP? Probably not even that.

Kuwaits GDP is a lot smaller than that of Ireland.

Eliot Rosewater

Bill2673 wrote: »

Its noteable that it took a long time for a thread to appear on Boards on the subject. Given the sh*te thats talked elsewhere on the site (for example, 391 posts on the new Sylvester stallone movie The Expendables).....I though that was a bit disappointing.

I don't see the problem. What exactly is there to say? "This is terrible."? Well, obviously. This a discussion forum and I just can't see what kind of discussion this flood could prompt, other than the question of why there is no discussion. What do you want us to talk about regarding this issue?

Bill2673

the scale of the problem
the geographic areas most affected
if anyone knows people over there or has heard back from anyone
if anyone knows Pakistani people locally who have been affected
the charities best placed to donate/ help
I could go on.....but you know what if people aren't interested then they aren't interested.

Eliot Rosewater

Okay, well I appreciate the response. (Charity thread here, by the way.)

I just don't see how there's some moral obligation for people to talk about this.

Nodin

Liberalbrehon wrote: »

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/world/06-world-islamic-body-appeals-for-urgent-aid-to-pakistan-rs-02

not much so far. €5 million from Kuwait that's the same as India who they are practically at constant war with.
Abu Dabi gave Dubai €100 billion or some crazy sum to shore up the property scam there. Seems they have their priorities right...a bit like here...doesn't matter the religion...property developers and banks always win out...

Did you read the link you provided? Seeing as it mentions Kuwaits 5 million after it mentions Saudis 100, it would seem that you were seeing what you wanted to see....

Denerick

Denerick wrote: »

In short, I'm trying to understand why such apathy exists, and I can only conclude that it is mainly down to the militarisation of Pakistani society and the dearth of activity amongst incredly rich Muslim governments.

Personally, I think its simply down to Haiti happening first.. Simply put, they'd already allocated what they felt was acceptable to Haiti and now they're wondering should they keep the remainder for themselves.

Also people are getting tired of sending money abroad since they realise that their own economy is in trouble, and their own lives are set to get worse over the next 5 years. Irish people have been sending Aid to other countries for decades, and its very difficult to see any definite result for all that aid. The countries that received aid in the past haven't changed much, and still require aid. I've recently canceled previous subscriptions to Concern (after being with them for over two decades) because I don't see it actually changing things.

Bill2673 wrote: »

the scale of the problem
the geographic areas most affected
if anyone knows people over there or has heard back from anyone
if anyone knows Pakistani people locally who have been affected
the charities best placed to donate/ help
I could go on.....but you know what if people aren't interested then they aren't interested.

Lead by example. Its a discussion board. If you post up your opinions on the topics listed, then other posters will respond. There's no point complaining about the lack of discussion when you yourself haven't started it all off.

Liberalbrehon

Nodin wrote: »

Did you read the link you provided? Seeing as it mentions Kuwaits 5 million after it mentions Saudis 100, it would seem that you were seeing what you wanted to see....

The kingdom has also pledged to provide 100 million dollars (77.6 million euros) in government aid to Pakistan, the Arab News daily said.

First considering the amount of money they have, it's not huge % wise. Second, government aid can mean anything, a loan to be repaid, quid pro quo for some other benefits, I'd like to know the details before eating my hat.

The ottoman empire was a muslim construct but there was huge oppression like in any empire. Groups hated each other. They are not exactly birds of a feather, so basing charity now on the basis of religion maybe a step to far of a presumption on my part. Does one muslim care if another one is suffering? anymore than a christian does? People are people after all?