What defines a modification?

E39MSport

Hi All,

Following from a thread in the motors forum re informing insurance company, I was wondering what exactly defines a modification.

I understand that there may be several definitions and that I should probably call the insurance company themselves to find out. But whats the baseline?

I've (so far) got eibach springs, billy shocks and camber plates in my 8er. Going magnaflow and Wokke chips also soon.

I've also got poly bushings in my cruiser.

I'm now thinking that in the even of a claim the insurance company might void my policy?

What qualifies a modification? Non oem? What if you go to quickfit and they fit generic pads. Is this a mod? What if you run fully synth as opposed to the mineral stated in the owners manual..... Where do you stop?

Ta,

kingbrumak

Hmmmm the expression "can of worms" is comming to mind for some reason :P

To me a modification would be defined as fitting any part that is non-standard or OEM equipment for the make and model of car that you drive.

Just my two cents on this. As for changing the fluids and fitting generic brake pads, if any insurance company went as far as including this under "modifications", they're definitely out to screw you!

E39MSport

I agree. They would be right btards if they did but the can of worms and the legalities etc are what they are....

I just looked for a quote on tesco.ie and mentioned a suspension 'mod' on my cruiser and was declined ! (don't know however if that was the reason I was declined - they dont state)

kingbrumak

I think the underwriters on the Tesco insurance is the RSA so through ignorance they may have declined you. Try calling some of the other more reputable companies and see what they say. They'll probably ask you for details of the modifications and quote you from there.

Atomic Pineapple

Anything Non OEM is technically a modification.

However insurance companies should only be interested in modifications that affect the risk factors based on the car.

For example fitting spurious brake pads that are rated the same as OEM and pass safety regulations should have no effect on the risk factors.

However fitting a full brake upgrade increases the value on the car as well as changing the risk factors regarding performance.

So in the first case you wont have to declare to your insurance, in the second you will.

Cunning Alias

I asked Aviva about this last week.

I was curious if putting larger alloys than the stock ones would be considered a modification.

I was told that as long as they would not need raised arches or dramatically affect the speedo reading, I would be fine.

He said that as long as the car can still pass the nct I would be fine.

af_thefragile

That's nice of Aviva.

I've been thinking of lowering the suspension on my Puma.
I could use the Ford approved Eibach lowering springs so its not like shoddy after market stuff. I've also been thinking of fitting strut braces to it while at it.
And fit powerflex + Ford's performance suspension bushes.

I hope Aviva doesn't rip into me for those. If not its gonna be back to stock setup!

Edit:
Spoke to Aviva, they're charging me 15% of the premium (about 190eur) for lowering springs + bushes...
Don't know if this is a good deal... Might ask them how much they charge just for lowering the suspension...

iphone4g

af_thefragile wrote: »

Edit:
Spoke to Aviva, they're charging me 15% of the premium (about 190eur) for lowering springs + bushes...
Don't know if this is a good deal... Might ask them how much they charge just for lowering the suspension...

Do you honestly think they would be able to tell the difference if they looked,they wouldn't have a clue ,there is an awful lot of ****e talk on here about this covered/not covered crap .People would think that ye all owned insurance companies.

Graham_B18C

iphone4g wrote: »

Do you honestly think they would be able to tell the difference if they looked,they wouldn't have a clue ,there is an awful lot of ****e talk on here about this covered/not covered crap .People would think that ye all owned insurance companies.

The reason we declare our mods is because if your in an accident, and an assessor checks your car out and discovers undeclared mods, you won't be covered, simple as that. Do you honestly think an insurance company would pay out if they didn't have to?

Atomic Pineapple

iphone4g wrote: »

Do you honestly think they would be able to tell the difference if they looked,they wouldn't have a clue ,there is an awful lot of ****e talk on here about this covered/not covered crap .People would think that ye all owned insurance companies.

An assessor will easily spot non oem modifications, talk about being naive if you think they wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

iphone4g

draffodx wrote: »

An assessor will easily spot non oem modifications, talk about being naive if you think they wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

I am in the trade for 25 odd years and I can tell you most assessors could not tell the difference between one shock/spring setup and another or very little else for that matter.
Live in the real world and stop talking ****e ye know nothing about.

Graham_B18C

iphone4g wrote: »

I am in the trade for 25 odd years and I can tell you most assessors could not tell the difference between one shock/spring setup and another or very little else for that matter.
Live in the real world and stop talking ****e ye know nothing about.

You'd never guess you were old enough to be in any trade 25 years by the way you come accross in previous posts.

Take a couple of weeks off there

oh and I knew my car had after market springs on it and I ain't a mechanic or assessor

Atomic Pineapple

iphone4g wrote: »

I am in the trade for 25 odd years and I can tell you most assessors could not tell the difference between one shock/spring setup and another or very little else for that matter.
Live in the real world and stop talking ****e ye know nothing about.

In the insurance industry?

Shouldn't you have known the answer to your own question then - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055917597

Or do you mean the motor trade? In which case its unlikely you have anymore experience of insurance than anyone else except for maybe excepting money off them for repairs.

Wibbs

Though to be fair to iphone4g, As a good mate of mine is also a mechanic that has done a lot of work for insurance companies over nearly as many years, he has experienced assessors who have surprisingly little knowledge (or indeed care) on this score. So long as visually the car wasn't OTT they can and do miss stuff. And to be fair to them too, hardly a surprise really considering the huge amount of models/versions of the same car out there.

Something like lowering springs would be missed easily enough, unless you're slammed to the deck LA stylee. Another I recall seeing was an old 1.6 capri, that had the 2 litre engine from an escort RS2000. Visually very hard to tell apart. Very old example, but I'm sure there are modern equivalents. Where tricky bits from higher end versions of the same model end up on entry level cars. EG someone with a standard Civic dropping in a type R engine, but leaving the old rocker cover on.

Someone running serious internal mods could be all too easily missed. Boring and stroking an engine, blueprinting, gas flowing, custom more free flowing header running into an otherwise standard exhaust, running hotter cams(not so hot it runs like a three legged horse on tickover mind), bigger turbos, bigger injectors, engine mapping, lighter flywheel etc. All of which could be done to a standard engine and liberate serious horseys(especially an engine that is asthmatic from the factory). And unless you slap on a dayglo rocker cover imprinted with the words "Evil Petrol Sucking Bastard" it would be very easy to miss, indeed damn near impossible without tearing down the engine. Hell just removing the standard air con if fitted is gonna release extra grunt.

Some potentially dangerous mods, that could easily have contributed to a crash, like running race only brake pads that require you to regularly left foot dab the brakes to keep them up to operating temp, would be missed by all but the most anal and eagle eyed people.

That said most modders will kinda advertise the fact with external mods advertising the internal mods. To the degree of some having a list down the side of the car. A guy or gal with flip paint, expensive rims, a touring car spoiler and an exhaust that sounds like God clearing his throat is more likely to have fettled up the oily bits too. Few enough these days seem to go the sleeper route. Then again how would we know

Other mods should be almost encouraged. Bigger brakes as an example. Braided brake lines another. Of course only if done by competent mechanics.

Atomic Pineapple

Obviously its going to depend on the assessor and whether they have any interest in their job, it will also depend on the company and the individuals whose car is being assessed risk profile.

If its a 50 year old with a written off 1.4 corolla there not going to be interested in looking for modifications.

If its a high risk young lad with something like a Civic Type R they are going to be well interested in finding undeclared modifications. I'm not saying they will know every mod in a car.

In terms of suspension I wouldn't be too worried, but performance orientated mods that are not hidden are going to be easily spotted.

Also people on forums have recently reported getting letters from insurance companies after their cars have been on stands at car shows and the letter listing the list of mods on the car and asking why it hasn't been declared.

What I'm saying is insurance companies will do anything not to pay out and they don't always sent out some ejit assessor who doesn't have a clue.

E39MSport

Initial enquiry was more to do with conforming with insurance policies in the event of an assessment.

Regardless of the assessors abilities I'd rather conform to any declaration requirements and be happy that I won't be in breach of any contract.

Point is - where to start/stop.

I've since been told that the tyres on my cruiser constitute a mod.

I'm considering listing all non oem mods on my motors and forwarding to relevant insurance companies for the record. However I don't want to give them an excuse to raise my premium for the sake of it. I'm loath to even ask them what a mod is in case they jump all over it. I suppose it wouldn't do any harm to get a statement from them and take it from there. I imagine it would be along the lines of 'any non standard/oem equipment'.

@iphone4g: - Your posts don't make for pleasant reading.

Cunning Alias

Realize the thread is a bit old but I thought this could be useful to someone else.

I was just on to my insurance co about replacing the headlights with a pair of these: http://cgi.ebay.ie/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120620337163

After sounding a bit confused for a bit the guy came back and said that it would not increase my current premium but it could raise my premium when I am renewing it as the car would be more desirable.

He also was fairly adamant that they had to be professionally fitted and wanted to know the company that was going to fit them. Although this may have been because I told him there was no cost to installing them as I have a family member in the industry.

djimi

draffodx wrote: »

Anything Non OEM is technically a modification.

However insurance companies should only be interested in modifications that affect the risk factors based on the car.

For example fitting spurious brake pads that are rated the same as OEM and pass safety regulations should have no effect on the risk factors.

However fitting a full brake upgrade increases the value on the car as well as changing the risk factors regarding performance.

So in the first case you wont have to declare to your insurance, in the second you will.

Ive always wondered about this actually. I can see how they would have a problem with mods that increase bhp, lowered suspensions etc, but surely fitting a decent brake kit actually makes the car safer as it improves the stopping power, no? Surely they wouldnt take issue with something that improves the safety of the car?

Wibbs

Yea djimi but that would require imagination from the insurance company..... Lets all wait shall we...

It would be a safety feature, though only if the right brake upgrades were fitted the right way.

Midnight_EG

I let my insurance company know about my uprated brakes, they knocked €40 off of my policy.

zubair

I'm with aviva a few years now and reported all my mods (coilovers, remap turbo back exhaust) and no extra charge, they just noted it on my policy. I was pleasantly suprised.

Armin_Tamzarian

Cunning Alias wrote: »

I asked Aviva about this last week.

I was curious if putting larger alloys than the stock ones would be considered a modification.

I was told that as long as they would not need raised arches or dramatically affect the speedo reading, I would be fine.

He said that as long as the car can still pass the nct I would be fine.

Exactly.
You have to declare ANY modification you make to your car, even putting new alloys on it.
Thing is though for a lot of things the insurance company won't charge you extra, it's just important to tell them to stop your policy being invalidated in the event of a crash.

Wibbs wrote: »

Someone running serious internal mods could be all too easily missed. Boring and stroking an engine, blueprinting, gas flowing, custom more free flowing header running into an otherwise standard exhaust, running hotter cams(not so hot it runs like a three legged horse on tickover mind), bigger turbos, bigger injectors, engine mapping, lighter flywheel etc. All of which could be done to a standard engine and liberate serious horseys(especially an engine that is asthmatic from the factory). And unless you slap on a dayglo rocker cover imprinted with the words "Evil Petrol Sucking Bastard" it would be very easy to miss, indeed damn near impossible without tearing down the engine. Hell just removing the standard air con if fitted is gonna release extra grunt.

Completely agree.
They'd want to be ridiculously thorough to spot de-cat pipes, remapped ECUs, rebuilt engines, uprated fuel pumps / turbos, etc.

E39MSport

I took the plunge yesterday and contacted my broker listing my so called modifications.

So far, the insurer of my 8er has responded.

I listed: -
Upgraded Eibach (ISO9001 and TUV approved) springs to replace rear onside broken spring
Replaced faulty EDC with Bilstein dampers

They replied: -
We are fine with this as long as it does not effect the preformace of the vehicle can you confirm this is the case?

I'm assuming they mean power when referring to performance. I replied that the changes are purely safety and handling related.

So far so good.

I intend to maintain a list of upgrades and keep insurers apprised.