What to do with loaded bullet?

fergusb

I'm not sure this is the write forum for this post but someone might know!

Last weekend I was putting a new roof onto a shed down in West Cork, and while taking off the old roof we found a loaded bullet between some rocks on top of the wall (we had just being pick-axing old cement off the walls so lucky didn't hit the bullet!)

The bullet was around 8cm long rifle bullet (a complete guess), and quite corroded. Had obviously been there for a long time as the house had been in my families possession for 35 years, and when they got it the roof was in a bad state so had probably been there since at least the previous time the roof was changed.

Anyway we suspected the bullet dated back to maybe the civil war (another guess!). But we had no idea what we should do with it, obviously we didn't want to throw it in the thrash, the nearest police station is a long way away, and even then not sure what they'd do if you walked in with a loaded bullet. So we ended up taking a few photos and throwing it into the sea.

So the question is what would have been the correct thing to do in that circumstance? Since it was fairly old and corroded I didn't really want to bring it back with me in the car in case it wasn't too stable (probably being paranoid!).

Tackleberrywho

fergusb wrote: »

I'm not sure this is the write forum for this post but someone might know!

Last weekend I was putting a new roof onto a shed down in West Cork, and while taking off the old roof we found a loaded bullet between some rocks on top of the wall (we had just being pick-axing old cement off the walls so lucky didn't hit the bullet!)

The bullet was around 8cm long rifle bullet (a complete guess), and quite corroded. Had obviously been there for a long time as the house had been in my families possession for 35 years, and when they got it the roof was in a bad state so had probably been there since at least the previous time the roof was changed.

Anyway we suspected the bullet dated back to maybe the civil war (another guess!). But we had no idea what we should do with it, obviously we didn't want to throw it in the thrash, the nearest police station is a long way away, and even then not sure what they'd do if you walked in with a loaded bullet. So we ended up taking a few photos and throwing it into the sea.

So the question is what would have been the correct thing to do in that circumstance? Since it was fairly old and corroded I didn't really want to bring it back with me in the car in case it wasn't too stable (probably being paranoid!).

technically you call the gardai, they could call in the army ordnance and they would "make it safe"

Realistically it prob would not have gone off as with freeze thaw type action water/Moisture may have seeped into the powder rendering it useless.

However throwing in the sea is littering, so you could have gotten in more trouble for that had a busy body seen you.

virminhunter

Tom Barry country, I'd bet it was a .303.

bazza888

why not put the pictures up the lads might know what type it is!

jwshooter

the wind that shakes the barley country

fergusb

bazza888 wrote: »

why not put the pictures up the lads might know what type it is!

Here you go:

Tackleberrywho

fergusb wrote: »

Here you go:

.303 lee enfield

Tackleberrywho

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Lee-Enfield_Rifle.jpg

Fired from this


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daveob007

You should check out the whole place,,this might have been an old arms dump back during the civil war.
It happened to a guy living close to where i lived before and the gardai found loads of old stuff,grenades,mauser broom handle pistol and loads of ammo.
If you called the cops they might have searched the entire area,and god knows what the might have found if anything.
could be just the one round that got disgarded.

fergusb

Cool thanks! Interesting to know what it was! Was that a common gun from during the civil war period?

fergusb

daveob007 wrote: »

You should check out the whole place,,this might have been an old arms dump back during the civil war.
It happened to a guy living close to where i lived before and the gardai found loads of old stuff,grenades,mauser broom handle pistol and loads of ammo.
If you called the cops they might have searched the entire area,and god knows what the might have found if anything.
could be just the one round that got disgarded.

We had a quick look around the area, beside where it was found was a bit pile of rubble, we through about clearing it to see if anything interesting contained in it, but realised it was actually supporting the wall of the shed and decided best leave it as was.

Its a fairly isolated place, so could have easily been a arms store in the area, I remember being told by locals of various hide outs in the valley built and used during that time as well. Would be interesting to excavate them and see what is contained there.

Tackleberrywho

fergusb wrote: »

Cool thanks! Interesting to know what it was! Was that a common gun from during the civil war period?

It caused more wars than it solved, but yes.

Was the general service rifle of the RIC & The Brit's and was involved in both world wars.

Collins was prob shot with one of them at Beal ná Blath

Tackleberrywho

fergusb wrote: »

We had a quick look around the area, beside where it was found was a bit pile of rubble, we through about clearing it to see if anything interesting contained in it, but realised it was actually supporting the wall of the shed and decided best leave it as was.

Its a fairly isolated place, so could have easily been a arms store in the area, I remember being told by locals of various hide outs in the valley built and used during that time as well. Would be interesting to excavate them and see what is contained there.

http://westcorkflyingcolumn.com/photos.html

Check this out!

virminhunter

some flying colomn member probably got a smack in the mouth for himself when they were doing an ammunition count over that...:rolleyes:

one of the best books I ever read


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

ianoo

+1 virmin hunter exellent book

Grizzly 45

In the state it was in.Chucking it into a jar of hydraulic oil or transmission fluid for 72 hours would have renderd it totally inert.Drilling a small hole about midways into the case after that treatment would render it unfit for any use in any gun ever again,and you could have kept it as a souviner.
Considering you can buy any sort of deacted bullet in a surplus shop,heck! Whole ammo belts of the stuff,without the holes of 7.62NATO.[ One of my Ex GFs had years ago a ammo belt as her fashion statement here:D.]
Grenades and actual firearms... different matter.

Tackleberrywho

was the round found close to this monument?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/92/Iarthair_Chorca%C3%AD_185.jpg

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tac foley

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

It caused more wars than it solved, but yes.

Was the general service rifle of the RIC & The Brit's and was involved in both world wars.

It was the battle rifle of the largest empire the world has ever seen, or ever will. It is still in service in the Indian sub-continent, and in arctic region Canadian Ranger units where its reliability in harsh conditions makes it a better bet than more modern gas-operated firearms. Each one was has also been bought and paid for for well over half a centry- Canadians are well-known for being thrifty.

Far from being involved in simply 'both world wars', it was used in every fight. skirmish, UN-action [including Korea], every insurgency [Aden, Cyrpus, Malaya, Mesopotamia, and hundreds of others] between 1895 and the late 1960's. Versions were made in all Commonweatly countries that has an armaments industry - Canada, Australia, India and Pakistan - by the million.

It was also the service rifle of the Free State Armed Forces and the opposition during the Civil War, and remained so until replaced by the FAL in the 1960's.

And as a point of pedantry, the RIC, by dint of their title, were also classed as 'British', just like the former RUC, now PSNI, were and are, British.

tac

Tackleberrywho

tac foley wrote: »

It was the battle rifle of the largest empire the world has ever seen, or ever will. It is still in service in the Indian sub-continent, and in arctic region Canadian Ranger units where its reliability in harsh conditions makes it a better bet than more modern gas-operated firearms. Each one was has also been bought and paid for for well over half a centry- Canadians are well-known for being thrifty.

Far from being involved in simply 'both world wars', it was used in every fight. skirmish, UN-action [including Korea], every insurgency [Aden, Cyrpus, Malaya, Mesopotamia, and hundreds of others] between 1895 and the late 1960's. Versions were made in all Commonweatly countries that has an armaments industry - Canada, Australia, India and Pakistan - by the million.

It was also the service rifle of the Free State Armed Forces and the opposition during the Civil War, and remained so until replaced by the FAL in the 1960's.

And as a point of pedantry, the RIC, by dint of their title, were also classed as 'British', just like the former RUC, now PSNI, were and are, British.

tac

Most of the rifles used ~1916-20 were most likely stolen from RIC barracks around the country as this was common at the time. There was some German stuff brought in too and American stuff. Most of the German stuff never landed at their intended stop at Banna Strand C0.Kerry.

So the Old Lee Enfields in Ireland were all E-British, like our first armoured cars and planes were Ex-British.

Cork was the Rebel county so there is a lot of history surrounding all munitions found down there .
OP

You should do a good search of the area to see is there anything else!

Justashotgun

tac foley wrote: »

It was the battle rifle of the largest empire the world has ever seen, or ever will. It is still in service in the Indian sub-continent, and in arctic region Canadian Ranger units where its reliability in harsh conditions makes it a better bet than more modern gas-operated firearms. Each one was has also been bought and paid for for well over half a centry- Canadians are well-known for being thrifty.

Far from being involved in simply 'both world wars', it was used in every fight. skirmish, UN-action [including Korea], every insurgency [Aden, Cyrpus, Malaya, Mesopotamia, and hundreds of others] between 1895 and the late 1960's. Versions were made in all Commonweatly countries that has an armaments industry - Canada, Australia, India and Pakistan - by the million.

It was also the service rifle of the Free State Armed Forces and the opposition during the Civil War, and remained so until replaced by the FAL in the 1960's.

And as a point of pedantry, the RIC, by dint of their title, were also classed as 'British', just like the former RUC, now PSNI, were and are, British.

tac

Thats why I just love this forum,:) I learn loads about various firearms, calibres, set-up etc then learning hunting techniques and gaining loads of tips etc from the members. then there is the likes of this post where what started as a "I found a bullet, what should I have done with it?" turned into a running commentary on contemporary Irish history. Great stuff!:D

Tackleberrywho

Justashotgun wrote: »

Thats why I just love this forum,:) I learn loads about various firearms, calibres, set-up etc then learning hunting techniques and gaining loads of tips etc from the members. then there is the likes of this post where what started as a "I found a bullet, what should I have done with it?" turned into a running commentary on contemporary Irish history. Great stuff!:D

Well I'll have to post a pic of my Bayonet dating from 1798~ to complete the thread then so!

Technically this is militaria topic though.

meathstevie

OP, if it was allready that badly corroded seawater will only speed that process up so from a safety point of view you've probably done right.

From a legal point of view you probably should have contacted the Gardai. Too late for that now and to be honest with you I don't think they're going to send out a team of divers to recover a rusted up Lee Enfield round that's been thrown into the sea in West-Cork.

The reason why the round was there can be anything really. Someone had it on them and didn't really have much of a desire to be shot at a checkpoint down the road. Someone on the run hid it for the same reasons. A member of the defence forces had a buckshee round hid it in the shed and forgot all about it. Kids found it at a forgotten ammo dump and didn't want the old lad to know about it etc etc...

Sandy22

fergusb wrote: »

Cool thanks! Interesting to know what it was! Was that a common gun from during the civil war period?

Definitely not. That model wasn't introduced until about 1940.

Tack doesn't know the difference between a No.1 and a No.4.

tac foley

Justashotgun wrote: »

...then there is the likes of this post where what started as a "I found a bullet, what should I have done with it?" turned into a running commentary on contemporary Irish history. Great stuff!:D

Apologies for that, Sir. I would have removed my comment but it has already been copied into another poster's comment.

In future I'll try and keep to the point.

tac

Tackleberrywho

Sandy22 wrote: »

Definitely not. That model wasn't introduced until about 1940.

Tack doesn't know the difference between a No.1 and a No.4.

I just showed the OP a pic of a lee enfield. ( as an example)
I'm not a fan of the Enfield and would not be an expert.
even though I have fired a few of them. In different variants. I prefered the Mauser

The round was the only real thing in the post. The round I identified from my experience as a .303. and I looked for a pic of a rifle to give the OP an idea of what it was.

OP sorry about that error
http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl04-e.htm
Would prob be your best bet for info. i would guess it was the older model, as the newer models were being used in Europe not sent to Ireland.

Tackleberrywho

tac foley wrote: »

Apologies for that, Sir. I would have removed my comment but it has already been copied into another poster's comment.

In future I'll try and keep to the point.

tac

I genuinely think he was impressed not being sarchastic. He did a smily face not a sarchastic face Mr Foley.

tac foley

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

I genuinely think he was impressed not being sarchastic. He did a smily face not a sarchastic face Mr Foley.

Ah, right. I don't see emoticons.

As for the No4's, well, you SHOULD have had 50,000 of them - The No4 Mk2 rifles commonly referred to as Irish contract rifles were made at Royal Ordnance Factory Fazakerley, near Liverpool, England. They were never delivered to Ireland due to political problems and remained in war reserve in England until being released on the milsurp market in the 90s. The serial number range for these Irish contract rifles is PF 309348 - PF 359347. Simply put, there is nothing 'Irish' about these rifles. They were made for Ireland but never got there.

The ones I've seen have a beautiful rendition of the intertwined FF on the breech. When they were finally released for sale to the RoI you didn't want them because you adopted the FN instead.

They are very much sought-after by classic rifle shooters as they are all totally unfired and original in every way - prolly the best No4's ever made and still in their original 'mummy-wrapping'.

Best

tac

Grizzly 45

Sold to the good old US of A, via a Canadian arms company where folks are actually appreciative of them and are now starting to ask premium prices because it has spread the word about the"irish contract"value.

Along with God knows how many Luger pistols which the Irish Govt had as " personal secondary arms" in WW2,we were one of four countries in WW2 to issue the Luger to its troops.Germany,Switzerland,Holland,and the ROI [although in our case more because of ill prepardness than anything else...whats new??]and were sold as "scrap" to a Luger collector/dealer in Texas who became a multi millionare out of that deal.:rolleyes::(

Just another fine example of the Irish Gov being pretty free and easy with the taxpayers property.:(

meathstevie

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Sold to the good old US of A, via a Canadian arms company where folks are actually appreciative of them and are now starting to ask premium prices because it has spread the word about the"irish contract"value.

Along with God knows how many Luger pistols which the Irish Govt had as " personal secondary arms" in WW2,we were one of four countries in WW2 to issue the Luger to its troops.Germany,Switzerland,Holland,and the ROI [although in our case more because of ill prepardness than anything else...whats new??]and were sold as "scrap" to a Luger collector/dealer in Texas who became a multi millionare out of that deal.:rolleyes::(

Just another fine example of the Irish Gov being pretty free and easy with the taxpayers property.:(

You're right there Grizzly, a Luger in good nick and in original state with holster, spare magazine and tool is quickly worth a couple of thousand dollar.

tac foley

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Sold to the good old US of A, via a Canadian arms company where folks are actually appreciative of them and are now starting to ask premium prices because it has spread the word about the"irish contract"value.

Along with God knows how many Luger pistols which the Irish Govt had as " personal secondary arms" in WW2,we were one of four countries in WW2 to issue the Luger to its troops.Germany,Switzerland,Holland,and the ROI [although in our case more because of ill prepardness than anything else...whats new??]and were sold as "scrap" to a Luger collector/dealer in Texas who became a multi millionare out of that deal.:rolleyes::(

Just another fine example of the Irish Gov being pretty free and easy with the taxpayers property.:(

You missed out Finland, but should not have included Switzerland, who were as neutral as you were during WW2. Holland played very little part in WW2, BTW, as they were an occupied country for 95% of it.

In one of my books about Michael Collins, written by his nephew, Justin Nelson, there is a very good photograph of General Richard Mulcahy in full uniform, wearing his Luger. I wonder what happened to THAT piece of Irish history?

tac

Tackleberrywho

tac foley wrote: »

You missed out Finland, but should not have included Switzerland, who were as neutral as you were during WW2. Holland played very little part in WW2, BTW, as they were an occupied country for 95% of it.

In one of my books about Michael Collins, written by his nephew, Justin Nelson, there is a very good photograph of General Richard Mulcahy in full uniform, wearing his Luger. I wonder what happened to THAT piece of Irish history?

tac

I'm guessing America private collection

Grizzly 45

tac foley wrote: »

You missed out Finland, but should not have included Switzerland, who were as neutral as you were during WW2. Holland played very little part in WW2, BTW, as they were an occupied country for 95% of it.

In one of my books about Michael Collins, written by his nephew, Justin Nelson, there is a very good photograph of General Richard Mulcahy in full uniform, wearing his Luger. I wonder what happened to THAT piece of Irish history?

tac

Tac,
I meant armies who had the Luger issued to their armies in the 30s/40s,irrespective wether they were occupied ,neutral or otherwise engaged in fence sitting,with a certain Ahem! leaning to the Allies.:rolleyes:

Did Finland have the Luger as an issued sidearm??? Thought it was a Finnish copy called the Lathi??

tac foley

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Tac,
I meant armies who had the Luger issued to their armies in the 30s/40s,irrespective wether they were occupied ,neutral or otherwise engaged in fence sitting,with a certain Ahem! leaning to the Allies.:rolleyes:

Did Finland have the Luger as an issued sidearm??? Thought it was a Finnish copy called the Lathi??

No allies had any form of Luger issued to them, either before, during or after WW2.

And yes, Finland had the P.08 as an issue side-arm. The Finnish military acquired 8,000 of them in the mid-920's in .30cal Luger/7.65mm, and called it the Pistooli M/23. They were made by DWM in Berlin. The first delivery of 2,000 arrived in July of 1922. A small number of 9mm pistol M/08 - that we would call the Luger - also saw use with Finnish military, but the M/23 was the most numerous pistol used by Finnish front-line troops during World War 2. They remained in use by the Finnish military until well into the 1980's. During the Continuation War, as Finland called the war against the Russians after they had become allies of nazi Germany, later M/23 pistols with worn barrels were modified to the 9x19 cartridge [we call it the 9mm Parabellum] - by replacing the barrel and mainspring - the foresight was also changed to an angular appearance like that of the Lahti [note spelling - Lahti is a place-name in Finland, as well as a personal name]. This modification made them into the Pistol M/08. The modifications were carried out by Tikkakoski, now simply called Tikka [Tikkakoski means 'Woodpecker Rapids', in Finnish - have a look at any Tikka rifle and you can see the woodpecker used as a logo]. All Finnish Lugers had a small overmark - SA [Suomen Armijaa - in a cartouche on the left-side. Mine was very well-used even before I got it, but still had both its issue magazines, a comparative rarity, and its Finnish holster with SA stamped on it.

The Lahti or M/35 only looked somewhat like a Luger, and was designed by the famous Finnish firearms genius, Aimo Lahti. It is not only somewhat bigger than a Luger, but also has a totally different action, incorporating an accelerator to ensure perfect functioning in the usual dire winters in that part of the world. I had a Lahti, and a Swedish licence-built copy, called the m/40 by the Swedes and built by Husqvarna. Both shot remarkably well and now are enjoying a happy holiday in Oregon.

Apologies for the lengthy response but I hope this has satisfied your curiosity.

tac

Grizzly 45

tac foley wrote: »

No allies had any form of Luger issued to them, either before, during or after WW2.

True indeed...I dont know how you got to that point..I said "

the Luger issued to their armies in the 30s/40s,irrespective wether they were occupied ,neutral or otherwise engaged in fence sitting,with a certain Ahem! leaning to the Allies."

And yes, Finland had the P.08 as an issue side-arm. The Finnish military acquired 8,000 of them in the mid-920's in .30cal Luger/7.65mm, and called it the Pistooli M/23. They were made by DWM in Berlin. The first delivery of 2,000 arrived in July of 1922. A small number of 9mm pistol M/08 - that we would call the Luger - also saw use with Finnish military, but the M/23 was the most numerous pistol used by Finnish front-line troops during World War 2. They remained in use by the Finnish military until well into the 1980's. During the Continuation War, as Finland called the war against the Russians after they had become allies of nazi Germany, later M/23 pistols with worn barrels were modified to the 9x19 cartridge [we call it the 9mm Parabellum] - by replacing the barrel and mainspring - the foresight was also changed to an angular appearance like that of the Lahti [note spelling - Lahti is a place-name in Finland, as well as a personal name]. This modification made them into the Pistol M/08. The modifications were carried out by Tikkakoski, now simply called Tikka [Tikkakoski means 'Woodpecker Rapids', in Finnish - have a look at any Tikka rifle and you can see the woodpecker used as a logo]. All Finnish Lugers had a small overmark - SA [Suomen Armijaa - in a cartouche on the left-side. Mine was very well-used even before I got it, but still had both its issue magazines, a comparative rarity, and its Finnish holster with SA stamped on it.

The Lahti or M/35 only looked somewhat like a Luger, and was designed by the famous Finnish firearms genius, Aimo Lahti. It is not only somewhat bigger than a Luger, but also has a totally different action, incorporating an accelerator to ensure perfect functioning in the usual dire winters in that part of the world. I had a Lahti, and a Swedish licence-built copy, called the m/40 by the Swedes and built by Husqvarna. Both shot remarkably well and now are enjoying a happy holiday in Oregon.

Apologies for the lengthy response but I hope this has satisfied your curiosity.

tac

Not at all:D Very intresting.I always thought the Lathi pistol wasthe only copy/redesign of the Luger used by Finland.Ya live and learn.

FISMA

You know, there just may be some truth that this is a civil war relic. Thus, I would hate to see it destroyed. In the future, you never know to whom they may relate this round. It's unbelievable how specific they can be. Can you imagine destroying a relic that could possibly be linked proof positive to Tom Barry?

Anyhow, for what it's worth, I would get some cosmoline, or such gun packing grease, heck, axle grease if that's all you have. Smother the round in grease, wrap some sandwich/wax paper around that, put it into an air tight bag, duct tape that, and put into a plastic bottle with a note. Color the bottle a bright color and bury in a ditch or something. Out of the middle of the field or where ploughs are likely to come along. Even place between some auld stones in a wall.

But that's just me.

tac foley

As above.

Apologies to all for thread drift.

tac

FISMA

tac,
Half the fun of these boards is seeing where the threads take you.
It's like those party boats, after a while - who cares where you're going...
:pac::pac::pac:
I actually enjoy a bit of aside-topic, never know what you're going to learn.

deeksofdoom

A lot of those rounds used by the IRA were reloaded, came accross a few under a roof one time, you could tell it had been reloaded as the neck of the round had been squeezed with something like a pliers to hold the bullet in place.

The IRA at the time were short on everything and had to be resourceful, I would say that a lot of the spent shell casings would have been picked up at the ambush sites.

marlin vs

+2 has to be one of the best read's iv'e ever had.

Justashotgun

FISMA wrote: »

tac,
Half the fun of these boards is seeing where the threads take you.
It's like those party boats, after a while - who cares where you're going...
:pac::pac::pac:
I actually enjoy a bit of aside-topic, never know what you're going to learn.

Exactly what I was thinking, and in my last post there was no sarcasism intended.