Faith school menace?

branie

Anyone here planning to watch it tonight on More4?

MagicMarker

Yup.

amacachi

I shall be watching. Ad said it's part of a "season", I'm assuming everything else will be repeats?

MagicMarker

amacachi wrote: »

I shall be watching. Ad said it's part of a "season", I'm assuming everything else will be repeats?

Nope, tonight is only the first part.

I don't know how many there will be, probably only 3 or 4.

amacachi

MagicMarker wrote: »

Nope, tonight is only the first part.

I don't know how many there will be, probably only 3 or 4.

Aye, but I assumed if they're calling it a "season" it would be more than one series. Suppose they're using it in the kinda American sense. Forget my last post. :pac:

MagicMarker

Just saw an ad for next weeks episode, which looks like a repeat of a previous programme he did.

TheStickyBandit

I only saw an ad for this the other night and I have it set to record. Looks like rupert murdock is benenficial for once!

amacachi

It makes me sad sometimes watching these programmes, it really does.

MagicMarker

I wish I could say it was shocking what was being taught in that Islamic school.

A supposed science teach couldn't answer a simple question on evolution that I, with my very limited knowledge, could have done so easily.

amacachi

He doesn't find it divisive. LOL.

My mate tried arguing with me that we came from Faith schools and we're ok. I had 3 easy points to counter with and was going to mention NI but hadn't sent the text before the programme came back. :pac:

amacachi

What a well place advertisement!

MagicMarker

Jolly good show!

sink

It's on 4od already, for anyone that missed it. Watching it now.

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/faith-school-menace/4od#3112619

rainbow kirby

That Muslim school was crazy. "We teach them science... but then we teach them that the Quran is more correct". :rolleyes:

johnny_ultimate

I came from a Catholic school, like I'm guessing most here did, and I came out critical. But I totally agree with Dawkins here. Ok he was a bit pushy (the first interview particularly) but mostly due to frustration. As usual, he provides some fairly persuasive evidence. That Muslim science teacher :eek:

The music could have done with being less dramatic, but an engaging show IMO. The goal is to teach children to be independent, make up their own minds. It's that bit harder in a staunchly religious environment. The rest if the syllabus hardly helps of course

Dr. Loon

Surely if any parent found out their child thought there was a "natural barrier" in the sea that separates salt water and drinking water, they'd pull them out of that school swiftly!? I wanted to cry watching this program. At least the Muslim school had the balls to allow filming, even if it did make a show of their science teacher.

devilsad

As usual he was very good, very articulate and of course very right. I fear as usual though he's preaching to the choir and those who should be listening either weren't watching or were and just won't listen. That said he may get through to some people and he may at least make some aware of what's going on.

What I found very interesting was the child psychologist who explained how a 4 year old's brain is receptive to religion given that it will apply a purpose to things to try to understand them. The children were given two options to consider as to why rocks are pointy. Is it because over a long period of time bits of the rock fell away leaving the point or is it so that animals have something to scratch themselves on. Most of them went for the animal explanation. But when they get older and are able to understand how things work they'll clearly see this explanation doesn't make sense. This should be the case with religion too, it's just they're never taught that it's nonsense so they continue to believe it.

However, I had one big problem with it. That old chestnut; Northern Ireland. Once again the problems up there are exploited and boiled down to the catholic religion against the protestant religion. This is far too easy and far too simplified and I think Dawkins knows this which makes it worse. He knows his audience doesn't fully understand what going on in the North. He knows he can make it look like it's simply catholics against protestants and if we could get rid of the nasty old religions everything would be rosy. But it won't!

In the case of the Muslim school, if religion was removed from their curriculum they would have a much better chance of being more analytical and more questioning of the information they get at home and at the mosque regarding religion. The same thing can be said by other faith based schools in the rest of the UK.

However, he is suggesting that if only religion was removed from schools in Northern Ireland things would start to get better. It may well help kids to be more analytical and questioning as with kids in the rest of the UK, but it’s not going to fix the entrenchment.

If the UK government made all schools secular tomorrow, catholic kids would go to ‘Nationalist schools’ with kids from their own background and protestant kid would go to ‘loyalist/ unionist schools with kids from their background and the division and entrenchment would continue. Of course the kids would be much better off mixing, but removing religion from the school would not fix the problem. Parents would still segregate their kids by choice. Because the problems in Northern Ireland have little to do with religion. Dawkins must know this and he must know that most people watching don’t really understand and think that if religion could just be removed from the equation, everything would be rosy in the garden. Hitchens used a similar argument in his book and it annoyed me equally.

Canis Lupus

Yeah I almost choked during the muslim children bit. The smug look on that 'science' teachers face as she explained that whilst she teaches evolution the 60 odd children she teaches had all personally made up their own minds that it wasn't true.

She was caught lacking when he asked her to answer the ape question first mind.

Shenshen

What galled me most actually was that eejit who kept going on about the parents' Human right to educate their children as they see fit.
I wanted to yell at the telly "And what about the children's right to access to all the information their peers have access to???" Education is about the children, not about the rights of the parents!

And to then have the sheer boneheadedness to reply to Dawkins statement that he raised his children trying to teach them critical thinking, asking questions and remain curious at the world around them, that he (that teacher or whatever he was) respected that, and that he in turn expected Dawkins to respect his right as a parent not to want that for his own children... I could have cried.

My only consolation is that from personal experience, children will grow up. And while some will turn into fundamentalists, most won't, and many will eventually see through what the schools tried to force into their brains.
The only sad thing is that they will need to overcome a lot of nonsense and spend a lot of time in later life sieving out the truth from the fiction, rather than being able to do that while they're still at school.

And yes, that Muslim science teacher was a sad, sad joke indeed.

Muppet Man

I thought the letter that Dawkins wrote to his 10 year old daughter was umm.... a shade on the heavy side.... (for a 10 year old to absorb). :rolleyes: Jeez dude relax, she's only 10

The NI references are getting old at this stage. Slightly off topic, but I read a paper once from Dawkins where he referenced the "Suicide bombers in Northern Ireland". I'm not aware of any suicide bombers in Northern Ireland, but I could be wrong. Just had to get that off my chest.

Interesting show though, I'm looking forward to next wednesday show.

Muppet Man

amacachi

devilsad wrote: »

However, I had one big problem with it. That old chestnut; Northern Ireland. Once again the problems up there are exploited and boiled down to the catholic religion against the protestant religion. This is far too easy and far too simplified and I think Dawkins knows this which makes it worse. He knows his audience doesn't fully understand what going on in the North. He knows he can make it look like it's simply catholics against protestants and if we could get rid of the nasty old religions everything would be rosy. But it won't!

My dad's from the North so I've heard enough about the whole thing, but I certainly didn't get the same message from the show as you did. To me he seemed pretty clear in what he was saying, that it's continuing to act as a barrier between the kids, which for as long it continues will delay any chance of assimilation.

However, he is suggesting that if only religion was removed from schools in Northern Ireland things would start to get better. It may well help kids to be more analytical and questioning as with kids in the rest of the UK, but it’s not going to fix the entrenchment.

If the UK government made all schools secular tomorrow, catholic kids would go to ‘Nationalist schools’ with kids from their own background and protestant kid would go to ‘loyalist/ unionist schools with kids from their background and the division and entrenchment would continue. Of course the kids would be much better off mixing, but removing religion from the school would not fix the problem. Parents would still segregate their kids by choice. Because the problems in Northern Ireland have little to do with religion. Dawkins must know this and he must know that most people watching don’t really understand and think that if religion could just be removed from the equation, everything would be rosy in the garden. Hitchens used a similar argument in his book and it annoyed me equally.

In the North plenty of kids mix until school starts believe it or not. Even the moderate parents end up sending their kids to the same schools as the hardliners. They're not looking to "segregate" as such, but with a baptism cert from whichever sect they put their child into there's usually not a huge amount of choice. Dawkins didn't seem to me to be arguing that getting rid of this segregation would make it rain sugar and give everyone gumdrop smiles, but will get rid of one of the biggest remaining barriers preventing assimilation.
Also, if all the schools were secular how exactly could the schools keep as Nationalist or Unionist? Will there be a political survey for the parents to fill in?

jimmycrackcorm

I'm always amused when people try to make a point about religion being a focal point in the north. But I'll accept it when republicanism and unionism are nominated as religions.

amacachi

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I'm always amused when people try to make a point about religion being a focal point in the north. But I'll accept it when republicanism and unionism are nominated as religions.

What age are you?

Memnoch

My throat always catches when I hear religious people talk about critical thinking and openmindedness, especially regarding the issue of education.

Take our own "Christianity" forum for example. Where the use of the term "Sky Farie" is considered pejorative. Or you cannot mention that YOU believe the Bible is a work of fiction and that there is no emperical evidence to the contrary. That's surely encouraging open dialogue and critical thinking.

I've been posting on boards since 2000, and that's the only forum I find that I can no longer post in or participate in discussions in because of their ridiculous rules. And I've participated on a huge variety of forums on here and never really had a problem with the rules.

And boards is supposed to be a place for open-minded discussion and communication and is generally populated with what I like to call, the more aware citizenry, since we are constantly exposed to critical thought and debate.

The actions and attitudes of the Mods there are all the evidence I need (anecdotal though it may be) to dispel the myth that those with a religious agenda can be trusted to provide a secular education or indeed encourage critical thought.

P.S. I'm not trying to start a discussion about the "other" forum. I just think it serves as a fantastic example when people start talking about "faith" based schools. Or really, putting our trust in the authority of ANYTHING "faith" based.

antiskeptic

Memnoch wrote: »

My throat always catches when I hear religious people talk about critical thinking and openmindedness, especially regarding the issue of education.

You'd want to look at MagicMarker then over in the Christianity forum. Seems to think that sending your kids to a faith school is the same as sending them to a white supremist skool.


Msg 97

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=67563494#post67563494

Take our own "Christianity" forum for example. Where the use of the term "Sky Farie" is considered pejorative. Or you cannot mention that YOU believe the Bible is a work of fiction and that there is no emperical evidence to the contrary. That's surely encouraging open dialogue and critical thinking.

The reason for this probably has to do with redundancy. What would be the point in Christians (in the main) coming here and telling you that you're all currently lost and if you don't repent you will spend eternity in hell? It'd miss the point of discussing what can be discussed and merely restates what you already know we think.

It makes sense to head such discussion off at the pass - it has nothing to do with openmindedness.

I've been posting on boards since 2000, and that's the only forum I find that I can no longer post in or participate in discussions in because of their ridiculous rules. And I've participated on a huge variety of forums on here and never really had a problem with the rules.

And boards is supposed to be a place for open-minded discussion and communication and is generally populated with what I like to call, the more aware citizenry, since we are constantly exposed to critical thought and debate.

I can't think of how open-minded discussion can take place with non-starter topics such as "I think the Bible is a work of fiction". It's a Christianity forum and you are dealing with people who clearly think differently and are fully aware of your view and why you hold it ("no empirical evidence!!"). That doesn't appear to worry them given that they don't hold that empirical evidence is the only way to know things.

Consider opening out your approach to discussion into what can be discussed.

The actions and attitudes of the Mods there are all the evidence I need (anecdotal though it may be) to dispel the myth that those with a religious agenda can be trusted to provide a secular education or indeed encourage critical thought.

Perhaps you'll see some of the blame laying at your door?

P.S. I'm not trying to start a discussion about the "other" forum. I just think it serves as a fantastic example when people start talking about "faith" based schools. Or really, putting our trust in the authority of ANYTHING "faith" based.

You're not being asked to put your trust in faith-based schools. Assuming the Catholic grip on education can be relinquished in time (something those in the other forum have no problem with (other than some Catholix) you can put your trust in secular based schools if you like.

MagicMarker

antiskeptic wrote: »

You'd want to look at MagicMarker then over in the Christianity forum. Seems to think that sending your kids to a faith school is the same as sending them to a white supremist skool.

lol. A christian putting words in my mouth? Nevah!!!!

Jakkass seems to think a parent should have the right to choose what beliefs and morals their children are taught, except when it comes to white supremacists.

Go figure!

robindch

antiskeptic wrote: »

You'd want to look at MagicMarker then over in the Christianity forum. Seems to think that sending your kids to a faith school is the same as sending them to a white supremist skool.

FYI - when referring to other people's posts, especially posts in other forums, it's best to include a link, so that people can verify that what you're saying or implying they've said does reflect accurately what they have said.

This is covered briefly in an addendum to the forum charter.

Zombrex

The scariest thing in my mind about the faith school debate is how utterly untrue the faith school argument are.

The position is that if you steep your child in one particular religion they will still be perfectly able to decide for themselves at a later state and in a totally non-bias way, if that religion is for them

That is utter bulls**t. That is not the anti-theist in me speaking, if you do the same to a child with atheism the same result will occur.

It is simply a biological fact about how children learn.

It seems that once again when religion meets a troublesome fact about reality that they don't like they simply choose to ignore it.

Ush1

antiskeptic wrote: »

You'd want to look at MagicMarker then over in the Christianity forum. Seems to think that sending your kids to a faith school is the same as sending them to a white supremist skool.


Msg 97

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=67563494#post67563494

It is as regards the right of the parents to choose for their children. You're missing his point, which is a completely legitimate and logical one.

Bottle_of_Smoke

The Irish Catholic guy was so annoying they way he posed his question to Dawkins. Unfortunately Dawkins lack of charisma will cause people to think the Catholic was right.

Also could really see the bit at the end being perceived as Dawkins trying to indoctrinate kids.

Thought it was odd they showed a close up of a UDA crest when he was in the north. The UVF crest with the motto "For God and Ulster" would have been a lot more appropriate for the show.

Wish he had of showed a few rational people from the north. Eamonn McCann would have been a great choice

amacachi

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

The Irish Catholic guy was so annoying they way he posed his question to Dawkins. Unfortunately Dawkins lack of charisma will cause people to think the Catholic was right.

Also could really see the bit at the end being perceived as Dawkins trying to indoctrinate kids.

Thought it was odd they showed a close up of a UDA crest when he was in the north. The UVF crest with the motto "For God and Ulster" would have been a lot more appropriate for the show.

Wish he had of showed a few rational people from the north. Eamonn McCann would have been a great choice

Indoctrinate them to what, logic? OH TEH NOES~!

The trouble with the North is that there are very few moderates with power on either side. I love saying "Ah come on, ****ing move on", then I see Ian Paisley in the 70s and I honestly don't see how anyone could sit next to him and extol the virtues of restraint and generally not being a dick.

PDN

amacachi wrote: »

My dad's from the North so I've heard enough about the whole thing, but I certainly didn't get the same message from the show as you did. To me he seemed pretty clear in what he was saying, that it's continuing to act as a barrier between the kids, which for as long it continues will delay any chance of assimilation.


In the North plenty of kids mix until school starts believe it or not. Even the moderate parents end up sending their kids to the same schools as the hardliners. They're not looking to "segregate" as such, but with a baptism cert from whichever sect they put their child into there's usually not a huge amount of choice. Dawkins didn't seem to me to be arguing that getting rid of this segregation would make it rain sugar and give everyone gumdrop smiles, but will get rid of one of the biggest remaining barriers preventing assimilation.
Also, if all the schools were secular how exactly could the schools keep as Nationalist or Unionist? Will there be a political survey for the parents to fill in?

Hmm, then it's a shame your Dad didn't inform you how the education system in Northern Ireland works.

The majority of non-Catholic schools in the North are State-run, not church-run. You are not asked for baptism certs - otherwise the huge number of Protestants who belong to churches that don't baptise children would be in a bit of a pickle, wouldn't they?

As an atheist child I was educated in State schools in Northern Ireland. My classes included Protestants, Catholics, Hindus and Atheists. Our religious education class consisted of general information about various faiths, with no promotion of any particular faith. Nobody ever asked my family for a baptism certificate.

Canis Lupus

PDN wrote: »

Hmm, then it's a shame your Dad didn't inform you how the education system in Northern Ireland works.

The majority of non-Catholic schools in the North are State-run, not church-run. You are not asked for baptism certs - otherwise the huge number of Protestants who belong to churches that don't baptise children would be in a bit of a pickle, wouldn't they?

As an atheist child I was educated in State schools in Northern Ireland. My classes included Protestants, Catholics, Hindus and Atheists. Our religious education class consisted of general information about various faiths, with no promotion of any particular faith. Nobody ever asked my family for a baptism certificate.

So unless I'm missing it you'll have, in general, catholics go to the catholic run schools and therefore the protestants go to state run schools and they'll be the overwhelming majority there.

It's complete conjecture on my part but would it be terribly wrong to suggest that the religion given the most airtime or implied legitimacy via the teachers is protestant similar to the muslim teacher in the program 'teaching' her students about evolution etc.


EDIT: In fact you were an atheist child taught in one of these state run schools but now are a protestant minister.. cough cough... coincidence :P

PDN

Canis Lupus wrote: »

So unless I'm missing it you'll have, in general, catholics go to the catholic run schools and therefore the protestants go to state run schools and they'll be the overwhelming majority there.

Many Catholics go to Catholic schools, but not all.

It's complete conjecture on my part but would it be terribly wrong to suggest that the religion given the most airtime or implied legitimacy via the teachers is protestant similar to the muslim teacher in the program 'teaching' her students about evolution etc.

Yes, it is complete conjecture and it would be wrong. I cannot recall anything being taught that was specifically Protestant.

EDIT: In fact you were an atheist child taught in one of these state run schools but now are a protestant minister.. cough cough... coincidence

I certainly don't label myself as a Protestant.

But, by Jove, I think you've got it! The vague generalisations about religion that were taught in my school for one hour per week overpowered the constant repetition of atheism dogma that I got at home. I guess that proves the power of religious teaching, eh?

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

But, by Jove, I think you've got it! The vague generalisations about religion that were taught in my school for one hour per week overpowered the constant repetition of atheism dogma that I got at home. I guess that proves the power of religious teaching, eh?

Meh, maybe you are just rebelling against your parents :P

Canis Lupus

PDN wrote: »

But, by Jove, I think you've got it! The vague generalisations about religion that were taught in my school for one hour per week overpowered the constant repetition of atheism dogma that I got at home. I guess that proves the power of religious teaching, eh?

AHA I KNEW IT!!! CAUGHT YOU!

robindch

PDN wrote: »

The vague generalisations about religion that were taught in my school for one hour per week overpowered the constant repetition of atheism dogma that I got at home. I guess that proves the power of religious teaching, eh?

On the contrary, it just confirms the view that protestantism has evolved, and is able to use, horizontal propagators which are independent of, and arguably strong than, the vertical propagation that takes place within the home (and which is still the preferred means by which catholicism propagates).

strobe

PDN wrote: »

Hmm, then it's a shame your Dad didn't inform you how the education system in Northern Ireland works.

The majority of non-Catholic schools in the North are State-run, not church-run. You are not asked for baptism certs - otherwise the huge number of Protestants who belong to churches that don't baptise children would be in a bit of a pickle, wouldn't they?

As an atheist child I was educated in State schools in Northern Ireland. My classes included Protestants, Catholics, Hindus and Atheists. Our religious education class consisted of general information about various faiths, with no promotion of any particular faith. Nobody ever asked my family for a baptism certificate.

Good post.

I'm curious PDN do you think the state school system with Protestants, Catholics, Hindus and Atheists attending together you were in. Teaching general information about several faiths would have been a better, worse or neutral experience to you having attended a purely Catholic or purely Protestant or purely Hindu focused school? Obviously you can't say for certain, but in your best estimate.

PDN

strobe wrote: »

Good post.

I'm curious PDN do you think the state school system with Protestants, Catholics, Hindus and Atheists attending together you were in. Teaching general information about several faiths would have been a better, worse or neutral experience to you having attended a purely Catholic or purely Protestant or purely Hindu focused school? Obviously you can't say for certain, but in your best estimate.

It's a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned. As a committed secularist I favour State schools that approach religion in a neutral informative way.