CIE smartcard facepalm

Cookie_Monster

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Another quaint little story about the daily misery of travelling on public transport.

COMMUTERS renewing annual bus and rail tickets are to be issued with two so-called 'smart' cards -- although the original idea behind the concept was for just one.

State transport company CIE admitted yesterday that commuters will be issued with two separate cards -- one for the bus, and one for the train -- when they renew their annual travel passes from this month.

This is because a €55m project to develop a one-size-fits-all Smartcard for bus, train and Luas in the capital is still not ready, despite being first promised in 2002.

In a letter to customers, the company said that annual bus and rail passes would no longer be on one ticket. Instead, there will be two.

The company warned commuters to carry both cards at all times, or run the risk of having the pass taken by inspectors.

"Previously tickets issued by Dublin Bus and Iarnrod Eireann used a magnetic strip to gain entry/exit at rail stations and as you may be aware this technology can result in both ticket corruption and failure," CIE warned travellers.

"Customers will now receive two Smartcards, one for use on the bus, and one for use on the rail. Both cards must be carried together at all times.

Reliability

"Tickets used separately will be withdrawn by our ticket inspection staff.

"There will be some initial adjustment required but we are confident that the reliability of the Smartcard validation technology will be of great benefit to all of our customers."

The 'not-so-smart card' -- officially called the Integrated Ticketing Project -- has already cost taxpayers €32m and the bill will reach €55m by the time the project is finally delivered at the end of 2011.

A spokesman for CIE said the two-card introduction was a "short-term measure".

"This is for people who hold annual bus and rail tickets," he said. "If you ordered it through Dublin Bus, it issued it. If you ordered it through Iarnrod Eireann, it would issue it.

"From now, only Iarnrod Eireann will issue the ticket. This is a short-term measure until the Smartcard system is fully rolled out next year."

The Integrated Ticketing Board, part of the Railway Procurement Agency, said the first phase of testing would begin before the end of the year.

The first phase would involve a pilot scheme between Luas and Dublin Bus. Iarnrod Eireann would be be added to the system in the middle of next year.

Other private transport companies in Dublin would be added late in 2011.

loyatemu

I think the title of Black Grape's second album sums this up:

robd

I don't see how carrying 2 tickets can be described as

the daily misery

.

It's not ideal but we know this is because of the RPA not Irish Rail or Dublin Bus. The RPA are blocking operators self integrating.

The plan still beats having to renew the current yearly ticket every week to month due to the mag strip being eaten by the validators.

A temporary measure and step in the right direction IMO.

Polar101

I wonder if I can "upgrade" my old "magnetic" ticket the next time it self-destructs.. got 7 months left.

Cookie_Monster

robd wrote: »

I don't see how carrying 2 tickets can be described as .

Its just one more thing to add to the list. Travelling by bus or DART is a daily misery anyway (for most, I'm sure some enjoy it), this one little thing just adds more to it

foggy_lad

so you pay for one ticket to save you a lot of hassle and get two different tickets with serious conditions attached on carrying both with you at all times or risk having your paid for services withdrawn? another classic CIE failure!

KC61

foggy_lad wrote: »

so you pay for one ticket to save you a lot of hassle and get two different tickets with serious conditions attached on carrying both with you at all times or risk having your paid for services withdrawn? another classic CIE failure!

It's a quick fix for one year - hardly that big a deal.

I would think most people would have the intelligence to be able to differentiate the two cards. I mean most people manage to carry a bank card and a credit card in their wallets all the time - what's the difference between that and two smartcards. I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

This is down to the RPA not allowing the two companies have integrated smartcards until their card arrives next year, and is not down to CIE.

foggy_lad

KC61 wrote: »

It's a quick fix for one year - hardly that big a deal.

despite being first promised in 2002.

Del2005

robd wrote: »

I don't see how carrying 2 tickets can be described as .

the daily misery

The fact that if you only want to use the bus and don't want to risk loosing the train ticket, or vice versa, you can have your single ticket confiscated is the misery. They make a fcuk up yet the paying passengers get the pain.

KC61

foggy_lad wrote: »

despite being first promised in 2002.

Well talk to the Department of Transport on that.

The operational companies are doing something to facilitate people while they are prevented from offering the integrated product.

Cookie_Monster

KC61 wrote: »

It's a quick fix for one year - hardly that big a deal.

we'll see...

Propellerhead

KC61 wrote: »

Well talk to the Department of Transport on that.

The operational companies are doing something to facilitate people while they are prevented from offering the integrated product.

No, yet again we have to reinvent the wheel. Presumably if you have the Luas add on you get a third card.

FFS.

markpb

KC61 wrote: »

It's a quick fix for one year - hardly that big a deal. I would think most people would have the intelligence to be able to differentiate the two cards. I mean most people manage to carry a bank card and a credit card in their wallets all the time - what's the difference between that and two smartcards.

If you have two contactless smartcards in your wallet, there's a good chance that neither of them will work with a contactless reader because of the anti-collision algorithm they use. You have to remove the one you want to use and wave it it front of the reader, rendering a big advantage (for users) of contactless technology useless. It's not a big deal but it's a bit daft

KC61

markpb wrote: »

If you have two contactless smartcards in your wallet, there's a good chance that neither of them will work with a contactless reader because of the anti-collision algorithm they use. You have to remove the one you want to use and wave it it front of the reader, rendering a big advantage (for users) of contactless technology useless. It's not a big deal but it's a bit daft

I don't disagree that it's daft - but it's better than using the magnetic stripe tickets that have a much higher failure rate.

Given the circumstances (i.e. the fact that the two companies are prohibited from issuing a combined card) it's probably the easiest solution.

Cookie_Monster

KC61 wrote: »

Given the circumstances (i.e. the fact that the two companies are prohibited from issuing a combined card) it's probably the easiest solution.

but they're aren't even two separate companies in reality (IE & DB). They share the same parent!! The mind boggles. Why can CIE simply not issue a card

markpb

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

but they're aren't even two separate companies in reality (IE & DB). They share the same parent!! The mind boggles. Why can CIE simply not issue a card

It doesn't matter. They designed their own separate contactless card solutions and then realised that it would be relatively easy to integrate them so in 2008/09 (not sure which) they asked the DoT for permission to do just that. Permission was denied because the RPA were already working on the integrated ticket and they felt that it could/would cause confusion on the tender market (RPA claimed their project had already been delayed by IR/DB because all three were tendering for the same stuff at the same time).

KC61

markpb wrote: »

It doesn't matter. They designed their own separate contactless card solutions and then realised that it would be relatively easy to integrate them so in 2008/09 (not sure which) they asked the DoT for permission to do just that. Permission was denied because the RPA were already working on the integrated ticket and they felt that it could/would cause confusion on the tender market (RPA claimed their project had already been delayed by IR/DB because all three were tendering for the same stuff at the same time).

I'm pretty sure the original directive came before 2008/09, but it was repeated then.

It is just another of a long litany of political interference in developing public transport in Ireland that causes extra cost for the operating companies, delays in developing new products/services/projects and causes daft workarounds to have to be developed.

Cookie_Monster

markpb wrote: »

It doesn't matter. They designed their own separate contactless card solutions and then realised that it would be relatively easy to integrate them so in 2008/09 (not sure which) they asked the DoT for permission to do just that. Permission was denied because the RPA were already working on the integrated ticket and they felt that it could/would cause confusion on the tender market (RPA claimed their project had already been delayed by IR/DB because all three were tendering for the same stuff at the same time).

of course it matters. its a massive waste of time and money and resources and a massive inconvenience to the travelling public. Its also another further reflection on the shambolic PT practices in this country :mad:

markpb

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

of course it matters. its a massive waste of time and money and resources and a massive inconvenience to the travelling public. Its also another further reflection on the shambolic PT practices in this country :mad:

No arguments from me, I was explaining that it was a political problem and not a technical problem. To be honest, I can't believe they asked for permission. They were replacing an existing magstripe ticket with a contactless ticket - they should have just done it and sought forgiveness later. If the government realised and told them to stop issuing the ticket, people would know it was the government getting involved. Now people think its IR/DBs fault.

loyatemu

OK, the magstripe tickets don't work well in the new(ish) validators

but on top of that the new(ish) validators are garbage anyway:

• half the time the gates don't open and you half to do a little Ali-shuffle to get them to to notice you
• its far to easy for people to sneak through them - I've seen up to 5 people go through on a single ticket and frequently have people sticking to my back to go through on my ticket (in fairness a lot of these people probably have failed commuter tickets)
• in a number of the stations they just leave the gates open permanently so the guys behind the desk don't have to pay any attention to them.

the whole system is in line with Irish Rail's usual pathetic standards...

KC61

loyatemu wrote: »

OK, the magstripe tickets don't work well in the new(ish) validators

but on top of that the new(ish) validators are garbage anyway:

• half the time the gates don't open and you half to do a little Ali-shuffle to get them to to notice you
• its far to easy for people to sneak through them - I've seen up to 5 people go through on a single ticket and frequently have people sticking to my back to go through on my ticket (in fairness a lot of these people probably have failed commuter tickets)
• in a number of the stations they just leave the gates open permanently so the guys behind the desk don't have to pay any attention to them.

the whole system is in line with Irish Rail's usual pathetic standards...

The real problem seems to be when using IE magnetic stripe tickets in the DB validators. In fairness I've not heard too many problems with the DB smartcards.

devnull

The Irish rail gates, particularly those at the bigger stations seem to be struggling to cope with the fact smartcards are now in use during busy times which causes the whole row of gates to operate very slowly when lots of them are in use.

I used to get the DART to Grand Canal Dock as well as Tara Street in the past and since these cards come in it's commonplace for people to put a ticket into the gates or use their smartcard and take their ticket out and nothing happens. About five seconds later the gate eventually opens!

It seems to be the case of whatever software is powering them can now no longer handle the load since they have started to take smartcards as well?

mickydoomsux

Should really just put in the swipe-through turnstile things they have in the subway in New York but they'd need to get some kind of free travel card solution thing first.

Of course this probably wouldn't catch on because Mrs. Mac Gerharty from down Kilmuckridge way wouldn't understand the 'yokes' and would be forever getting tangled up in them with her shopping bags.

foggy_lad

devnull wrote: »

The Irish rail gates, particularly those at the bigger stations seem to be struggling to cope with the fact smartcards are now in use during busy times which causes the whole row of gates to operate very slowly when lots of them are in use.

I used to get the DART to Grand Canal Dock as well as Tara Street in the past and since these cards come in it's commonplace for people to put a ticket into the gates or use their smartcard and take their ticket out and nothing happens. About five seconds later the gate eventually opens!

It seems to be the case of whatever software is powering them can now no longer handle the load since they have started to take smartcards as well?

those gates never worked properly and the software probably needs updating or replacing now, another job for a friend or relation of the company.

Gulliver

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Should really just put in the swipe-through turnstile things they have in the subway in New York but they'd need to get some kind of free travel card solution thing first.

Of course this probably wouldn't catch on because Mrs. Mac Gerharty from down Kilmuckridge way wouldn't understand the 'yokes' and would be forever getting tangled up in them with her shopping bags.

Yeah, stupid country folk shouldn't even be allowed in Dublin, never mind on public transport! :rolleyes:

I wonder will the inspectors enforce the one card confiscation? It seems a bit harsh, especially if the cards cause interference with each other.

trellheim

at the moment the cards collide so you need to take it out of the wallet to get a hit.

KC61

Gulliver wrote: »

I wonder will the inspectors enforce the one card confiscation? It seems a bit harsh, especially if the cards cause interference with each other.

I really cannot see that happening.

I think the real point is that to do a journey that requires both bus and rail you will need both cards with you rather than one.

foggy_lad

KC61 wrote: »

I really cannot see that happening.

I think the real point is that to do a journey that requires both bus and rail you will need both cards with you rather than one.

so if you are only using the train today you can give the other card to a friend to use! of course the one card confiscation will be enforced.

patrickmooney

I was last getting my annual ticket replaced last month. I asked about this. The best option then was for me to cancel my annual ticket and sign back up again for 12 month. That isn't going to work as my company only process them once a year. But it would be nice if when next month when I'm back in getting it replaced again, if they upgrade me.

Sidenote, they really should install a revolving door at their offices with the amount of visits you've to make during the 12 month period of a card!

Polar101 wrote: »

I wonder if I can "upgrade" my old "magnetic" ticket the next time it self-destructs.. got 7 months left.

Van.Bosch

I'm not being smart here but is this some kind of wind up? In 2010 we are changing our system as a "short term measure" so people who have 1 bus/rail ticket will now have to carry two? Apart from the inconvenience to passengers the above point about one person using the bus swipe and the other person using the train swipe at the same time could cost these companies a lot.I appresiate that there are issues with the RPA but they are all under the remit of the Dof Transport....What a Country..

dowlingm

In Ontario, public transport operators were told there would be no cash to implement smartcards from the Province unless they went with the Province's smartcard "Presto", which is being rolled out by Accenture. The operators in question are all owned by local authorities so there is no shared ownership as in CIE. Most of the participating agencies so far are in the Toronto area but Ottawa (400km away) has signed on too.

The system design is a controversial topic but this is in part because the largest operator in the Toronto area has never liked the province's idea. Now that it is being forced to join, the TTC is championing a credit-card based system instead (using RFID enabled cards). Just goes to show Ireland doesn't have a monopoly on bureaucrats who can't play nice.

If I recall correctly RPA was given the initial tasking on smartcards. If so, this may show why CIE didn't grasp it with both hands.

What should have happened was that DoT set up a bespoke agency for transport ticketing which agencies would join including the likes of Aircoach. The catch would be that RPA and CIE be forbidden to use state funds in deploying any smartcard solution not produced by this agency. The aim would be that someone could use the same fare medium to get the LUAS to Heuston, the train to Cork and the bus to Clonakilty (for instance).

In the short term I don't think cross-system discounting should be the goal, since that is the part that gets everyone's backs up (i.e. who takes the biggest share of the discount). The aim should be to reduce the need for ticketing, to provide discounting for each operator's services and reduce cash handling as much as possible.

One avenue could be a "frequent flyer" style system where the smartcard operator offers rewards rather than a direct discounting of each fare individually.

Empire o de Sun

Ticketing should be taken off CIE and given to the RPA.

CIE should be paid based on passenger numbers, service, reliability, performance.

KC61

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

Ticketing should be taken off CIE and given to the RPA.

CIE should be paid based on passenger numbers, service, reliability, performance.

The RPA have no control over CIE - I suspect that you mean the NTA?

AlekSmart

It really is an incredible situation,but one in which the CIE companies are largely pawns.
Quite what the general public actually have recieved for their generous donation of over €40 Million is open to question.

I would suggest that the initial premise upon which the Integrated Ticketing Integration Board is based is essentially flawed.

What in heavens name was the Department of Transport thinking when it gave permission for the simultaneous development and introduction of several differing Contactless Card systems..with a vague statement of intent to integrate them at some future point in time.....this was/is crackpottery of the highest order !

For a City the size and structure of Dublin we should have a fully integrated system up and running for at least 5 years now...No excuses or madcap diversions as we have been treated to.

It really is incredible that this amount of money has been spent...(Ie: is gone...disappeared) and we do not have a single integrated product to show for it,whilst many of the main players in terms of responsibility have shuffled off-stage with Lump Sum gratuities and pensions....?

I simply do not have any faith in this crowd when I am told it`s a "Temporary" arrangement until we sort out something better.

It`s now looking like Public Transport users will require a wallet similar to Chevy Chase`s in the movie Fletch in which to store their arsenal of non-complimantary "Smart-Cards"....an Irish Solution to an Irish Problem perhaps..?

It may be worth while perusing some of this in order to accquire a greater level of understanding as to how the country managed to reach this point........

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=TRJ20080326.xml&Node=H4#H4

Carawaystick

AlekSmart wrote: »

It may be worth while perusing some of this in order to accquire a greater level of understanding as to how the country managed to reach this point........

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=TRJ20080326.xml&Node=H4#H4

I presume mr Donovan is still cashing his govt cheque each month or has he been awarded some obscene pot of money to reward him for failure?

I presume nothing short of the end of the world will shift any of the heads in the CIÉ companies, so i wouldn't expect anything better from them.

It's truly unbelievable that two companies that had a single ticket that worked for a few months anyway have been unable to get a more advanced card to work.

I can't wait to see the new posters up saying you now need a bus ticket as well as a train ticket to get your delayed train ( unless you got on in Broombridge where no ticket is necessary or possible)

icdg

Van.Bosch wrote: »

I'm not being smart here but is this some kind of wind up? In 2010 we are changing our system as a "short term measure" so people who have 1 bus/rail ticket will now have to carry two? Apart from the inconvenience to passengers the above point about one person using the bus swipe and the other person using the train swipe at the same time could cost these companies a lot.

This is of course the exact reason why you will have to (supposedly) carry both tickets at once - so you can't give one to a friend while you use the other.

In reality Irish Rail seem to be trying to phase out manual ticket checks as much as possible. After all, isn't that partly the reason for these automated barriers in the first place. I'm sure revenue protection carry out off-peak checks on trains (though I can't remember the last time I had my ticket checked onboard on a DART/Commuter service) - the point is that most (if not all) Season Ticket holders travel at peak times when on-board ticket checks aren't possible for practical reasons. InterCity is a different kettle of fish when it comes to onboard checks (or at least it used to be, but I travel InterCity now once in a blue moon.) It is only Dublin users will be using combined Dublin Bus/Rail tickets anyway.

As for Dublin Bus, I can't remember the last time I had my ticket checked either.

Carawaystick

I just saw this crap on rte news

facepalm is not the word for how bad it is.

but hey folks not all is bad
some faceless aparatchick guarranteed* the integrated ticketing system will be working by the 30th of June next year (early next year )



* guarantee may not be an actual guarantee.

thomasj

foggy_lad wrote: »

so if you are only using the train today you can give the other card to a friend to use! of course the one card confiscation will be enforced.

yep and the db card will have the users photo on it so the friend and the user is risking it

AlekSmart

Posted by icdg:-

In reality Irish Rail seem to be trying to phase out manual ticket checks as much as possible. After all, isn't that partly the reason for these automated barriers in the first place.

Well spotted,and herin lies the trip wire which the PR people may not spot.

The CIE group,particularly Dublin Bus have developed a deep seated aversion to any form of confrontational checking,be it revenue or operational.

Dublin Bus have retreated from the battlefield to an electronic bunker which looks and sounds hi-tech and 22nd Century in approach.

However,reality and human nature are no respecter`s of technology,a fact which Veolia are discovering on a daily basis and which is now beginning to have a significantly negative effect on their perception in the public eye.

Put bluntly,this twin-card approach is in direct conflict with the entire concept of the Integrated Ticketing Implimentation Group`s mandate,especially as it`s a case of two divine tickets from the one group !!!

As another poster has already enquired....where`s the resignation or indeed,dismissal that this monumental incompetence so richly deserves to result in ?

markpb

thomasj wrote: »

yep and the db card will have the users photo on it so the friend and the user is risking it

Only if they are ever ticket checked by DB which is quite rare.