Condescending posts on this here forum

astrofool

While a staple of a lot of online forums, the Accommodation & Property forum since the bubble burst is becoming an awfully condescending place to be. I'd implore other posters to say what they mean, and not hide behind a veil of smugness, if you want your advice to work on everyone, then include everyone by saying it, and not implying it. Back up your points with sources if possible, sitting back and saying "I told somebody so, and it came to pass" does not a genius make.

mikemac

Definitely.

If a poster comes on here for info on buying a house, the next two pages will be full of predictions on how the market is going and how it will go.

Not what the OP asked for!

The "you'd be mad to buy" as every bit as militant as "buy a house, your rent is dead money" not so long ago

Xiney

feelingstressed wrote: »

The "you'd be mad to buy" as every bit as militant as "buy a house, your rent is dead money" not so long ago

well, except for the fact that "you're mad to buy" is unlikely to land someone in a position where they can't pay their mortgage...

That said I see what you're saying. Apparently everyone saw it coming and some are rather despicable in their schadenfreude.

mikemac

Yes, the "you're mad to buy" position are correct at the moment, I never said otherwise.

I just pointed out this view can be militant as the opposite view a few years ago.
I do remember our megathread with thousands of posts, not seen it in years though

There is a lot of smugness on this forum.
I'd be hesitant on starting a thread for asking for advice here.

If an OP comes here to ask about for info on buying a home or a person is in mortgage difficulty then I post options like MABS or useful info like opinions on an area as I've lived in most cities in Ireland at this stage so know some areas.
Not "I saw it coming and told my friends but nobody listened"

The_Conductor

If people see specific posts- which they feel are inappropriate in nature, attacking another poster, or generally michief causing- please use the report post function. I personally nuke at least a half dozen posts in this forum every day, and quite frequently entire threads. I don't have a lot of time on my hands though- and I don't hang around delibertly looking for mischief- so do please use the report post function........

The mega thread referred to above- is still there- if anyone has any interest in perusing it.......

oflahero

I strongly disagree with this view on perceived 'smugness'. People in Ireland tend to go from one extreme to the other, 'property is a one way bet that is your ticket to riches!!!', now 'you'd be mad to buy, ever'. However, I don't particularly recall regular rueful posts attempting to chastise the prevailing mood on the way up for being overly smug. What few there were, were quickly dismissed as jealousy and you-missed-the-boat, not to mention the authors of same being told to go off and commit suicide by our former Taoiseach.

The main reason I would object is that now people who made financially bad decisions, whether through being innocent victims of wanting to buy a family home or being straight-up greedy investors, are clamouring for bailouts. Who's going to pay for this? That's right, us jealous types who missed the boat a few years ago. And I'm still seeing posts like 'Market's gone down, so I should buy now, right???... but big nawty bank won't give me a mortgage!' Some people still don't seem to cop on to what the problem was. If it takes a load more so-called 'smug' posts to hammer the point home as to what a drag on the economy high house prices actually are, then bring 'em on.

Another thing I might mention is that the smugness on the way up was based on nothing but pie-in-the-sky bubblicious feelgood factor. Some smugness on the way down can be more justified in its grounding in the cold reality of a bottomless bank recap hole and and ongoing shocking budget deficit, not to mention Irish bonds at 5%. If people want to talk up Irish property in this context, then fire ahead. Just don't come complaining in a couple of years with your hand out calling me smug if I call it a bad financial decision.

Smcgie

I have to agree, the response to posts in this forum are obnoxious towards other posters telling them their stupid wake up etc.

I only browse this forum, I am a landlord but I don't speak to people up on a high horse either about them buying at the wrong time in the boom or any other financial aspect to do with renting/owning/buying

I reply to posts across all forums on the net as I would speak to someone in person, that's not something that's done around here.

Ps. Its not a mod issue as there is no serious breach of the charter. Its just a breach of respect for other people.

whippet

if you think the mood is smug here, try asking a simple question on Thepropertypin.com ... you will recieve a string of prewritten smugness followed by how everyone in the whole country is an idiot apart from us Pinsters !!!

astrofool

It's not particularly around prices falling.

What set this thread off was reading Devore's thread, where another poster questioned his ability to add, and the AIB thread, where a poster made a vague comment, did some hand waving, and expected everyone to come to the same conclusion. I could practically hear the stereotypical snort, and push back of the glasses as the posts were being written.

It's an advice forum, give advice, be clear, people might come to read it in the future.

astrofool

oflahero wrote: »

If it takes a load more so-called 'smug' posts to hammer the point home as to what a drag on the economy high house prices actually are, then bring 'em on.

This is the problem, if someone comes here looking for advice, a smug post will drive them away without the advice being taken in. It's doing exactly the opposite of hammering the point home.

oflahero

astrofool wrote: »

This is the problem, if someone comes here looking for advice, a smug post will drive them away without the advice being taken in. It's doing exactly the opposite of hammering the point home.

At worst, yes, no impact will be made. This being the internet, there's always a high noise-to-signal ratio. You'll always get some bad manners and incoherence. But I don't think anyone reading posts such as those you're alluding to will go off and actually take that as justification for the opposite view.

I'm willing to put up with a lot of dross if there's the occasional, well-reasoned gem, even some might view it as an online smack across the chops.

(snorts, pushes glasses up nose)

tHE vAGGABOND

tbh imho this is the most unpleasant forum on all of boards, for people talking down to you like your some kind of idiot or outright flaming you, if what you post does not agree with their point of view or their opinion.

For that reason myself and a few other people I know in real life may check here every so often but never post here anymore as its just not worth it.

The_Conductor

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

tbh imho this is the most unpleasant forum on all of boards, for people talking down to you like your some kind of idiot or outright flaming you, if what you post does not agree with their point of view or their opinion.

For that reason myself and a few other people I know in real life may check here every so often but never post here anymore as its just not worth it.

If you see posts that are inappropriate- please do use the 'report post' function. I don't have as much time as I would like to contribute to this forum- and very often may not see posts that really deserve to be nuked (but that said- I'm nuking quite a bit here- I'd guess at least 6 or 7 posts a day- and a few threads in their entirety each week).

Please- please, please- report any problematic posts you encounter.

oceanclub

Here's the deal; if you come on a forum, asking for free advice, you'll get my straight and honest opinion which you can either take or leave. If you'd rather have your ego rubbed and your choice validated, don't waste my time.

P.

Treehouse72

During the fake boom: Yiz are doom-mongers, begrudgers and losers...I don't know why you don't all commit suicide.

After the fake boom: Yiz were predicting the crash for years and were bound to be right some time, we all got carried away you know, and now yiz are all smug.



Same idiots both times. Same ignorance, same unwillingness to admit mistakes or accept responsibility, same unwillingness to listen to those who were right all along, same sanctimonious allegations of bad faith. And of course, wrong then and wrong now on the substance.

My smugness is hard won and I'm not through with it just yet, thanks very much.

whippet

Treehouse72 wrote: »

My smugness is hard won and I'm not through with it just yet, thanks very much.

well its totally misjudged based on your accusation in another thread claiming that you will be paying for bailing out my negative equity, when in fact I will be paying for it, for some reason you chose not to respond to that thread.

The smugness that people are complaining about is the reality that people like yourself are incapable of having a proper discussion of other's options with out dragging out the old rope of 'we told you so' etc.

It is a little tiresome at the moment and offers nothing to anydiscussion other than a selfserving ego boost.

Zamboni

Smug is in the eye of the beholder.
Mostly people who were wrong will be the ones that have an issue with it

whippet

Zamboni wrote: »

Smug is in the eye of the beholder.
Mostly people who were wrong will be the ones that have an issue with it

no .. its being accused of something falsly is what I have an issue with.

Zamboni

whippet wrote: »

no .. its being accused of something falsly is what I have an issue with.

I was just posting to the thread.
It wasn't a response to your post

But to be fair, if people want to enjoy a bit of smug I don't really see the problem.
It might make up for being told by everyone for around 4 years that they were effing retarded idiots for not getting on the property ladder and availing of 100% mortgages.

jmayo

Xiney wrote: »

well, except for the fact that "you're mad to buy" is unlikely to land someone in a position where they can't pay their mortgage...

That said I see what you're saying. Apparently everyone saw it coming and some are rather despicable in their schadenfreude.

Some of us actually did predict it and just in case you claim I am just a bandwagon hindsight jumper (as other poster on another forum wrongly did) check out my contribution on page 4 of Housing Bubble Bursting thread.

As pointed out by other posters here we the naysayers were laughed at, we were even told by the leader of our country that we should committ suicide.

The ones that were smug were the ones that had loads of investment propeties on the go, flash cars and were labelling the prudent bubble/burst believers as some sort of backward eejits who hadn't copped on to the train to easy riches and how Ireland was oh so different.

Am I smug now because I was right ?
No I don't think I am, but I am very f***ing angry.

My taxes and my families future are going to pay for the wreck that the above get rich quick merchants helped make out of our country's economy.

Now I am not saying that every buyer between 2001 and 2007 is at fault, but there are a hell of a lot of people who threw comon sense out the window and dived head first into massive debt, not in the hope of having a family home, but in the supposed certainty of making loads of dosh.

Even worse I learnt that the bankers, regulators and government allowed our financial system be run like a dodgy casino and again us prudent ones are going to suffer to help in large pay for the mess.

I hate this sh**e thrown out usually by ffers that we are all to blame and we all partied in the good times.

Now the icing on the cake that makes me very angry is having to listen to ones that got burnt, by buying over priced property, now demanding that they get a personal bailout.
We are already screwed by bailing out insolvent incompetent unethically run banks under supposed pretence that they are all systemic.
(Whatever about Anglo can someone please explain how INBS is/was systemic ?).

We have had various versted interests and populists subscribing to an idea of bailouts for small times investors and individuals that are trapped with huge borrowings ?

Where the f*** do these people think the money will come from and why should I or anyone else help pay for their mortgages ?

oflahero wrote: »

I strongly disagree with this view on perceived 'smugness'. People in Ireland tend to go from one extreme to the other, 'property is a one way bet that is your ticket to riches!!!', now 'you'd be mad to buy, ever'. However, I don't particularly recall regular rueful posts attempting to chastise the prevailing mood on the way up for being overly smug. What few there were, were quickly dismissed as jealousy and you-missed-the-boat, not to mention the authors of same being told to go off and commit suicide by our former Taoiseach.

The main reason I would object is that now people who made financially bad decisions, whether through being innocent victims of wanting to buy a family home or being straight-up greedy investors, are clamouring for bailouts. Who's going to pay for this? That's right, us jealous types who missed the boat a few years ago. And I'm still seeing posts like 'Market's gone down, so I should buy now, right???... but big nawty bank won't give me a mortgage!' Some people still don't seem to cop on to what the problem was. If it takes a load more so-called 'smug' posts to hammer the point home as to what a drag on the economy high house prices actually are, then bring 'em on.

Another thing I might mention is that the smugness on the way up was based on nothing but pie-in-the-sky bubblicious feelgood factor. Some smugness on the way down can be more justified in its grounding in the cold reality of a bottomless bank recap hole and and ongoing shocking budget deficit, not to mention Irish bonds at 5%. If people want to talk up Irish property in this context, then fire ahead. Just don't come complaining in a couple of years with your hand out calling me smug if I call it a bad financial decision.

Very well said.

oceanclub wrote: »

Here's the deal; if you come on a forum, asking for free advice, you'll get my straight and honest opinion which you can either take or leave. If you'd rather have your ego rubbed and your choice validated, don't waste my time.

P.

Some people want their choices and decisions validated.
They ask for advice and then when it doesn't suit their viewpoint they get the hump.

mkahnisbent

I think people are confusing smugness with not liking what they're reading... you know, the posters who desperately want to believe their decision to buy was/is right.

mkahnisbent

Treehouse72 wrote: »

During the fake boom: Yiz are doom-mongers, begrudgers and losers...I don't know why you don't all commit suicide.

After the fake boom: Yiz were predicting the crash for years and were bound to be right some time, we all got carried away you know, and now yiz are all smug.

Same idiots both times. Same ignorance, same unwillingness to admit mistakes or accept responsibility, same unwillingness to listen to those who were right all along, same sanctimonious allegations of bad faith. And of course, wrong then and wrong now on the substance.

My smugness is hard won and I'm not through with it just yet, thanks very much.

Let them be idiots. It's their money.

Darlughda

smccarrick wrote: »

If people see specific posts- which they feel are inappropriate in nature, attacking another poster, or generally michief causing- please use the report post function. I personally nuke at least a half dozen posts in this forum every day, and quite frequently entire threads. I don't have a lot of time on my hands though- and I don't hang around delibertly looking for mischief- so do please use the report post function........

The mega thread referred to above- is still there- if anyone has any interest in perusing it.......

smccarrick wrote: »

If you see posts that are inappropriate- please do use the 'report post' function. I don't have as much time as I would like to contribute to this forum- and very often may not see posts that really deserve to be nuked (but that said- I'm nuking quite a bit here- I'd guess at least 6 or 7 posts a day- and a few threads in their entirety each week).

Please- please, please- report any problematic posts you encounter.

Yes. The smugness overwhelmed me when I started a thread a while back about the lazy easy attitude of landlords who refuse RA tenants. You locked that thread quick enough. What was the point in getting into pm pinball with you or going through the cmods route?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055904398

This is actually a huge issue facing many people. Landlords are not acting towards the benefit of society. No matter who likes or not, being a property holder does mean you should have some degree of social responsiblity. Not smugness regarding the 'worth' of your investment.

The_Conductor

Darlughda wrote: »

Yes. The smugness overwhelmed me when I started a thread a while back about the lazy easy attitude of landlords who refuse RA tenants. You locked that thread quick enough. What was the point in getting into pm pinball with you or going through the cmods route?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055904398

This is actually a huge issue facing many people. Landlords are not acting towards the benefit of society. No matter who likes or not, being a property holder does mean you should have some degree of social responsiblity. Not smugness regarding the 'worth' of your investment.

I accept that rent allowance and whether or not its accepted is a massive issue for very many people. Its not simply a lazy attitude on the part of landlords where they are unwilling to accept rent-allowance, more often than not its the manner in which it can take a considerable amount of time to setup rent-allowance, there is considerable paperwork for landlords, its paid directly to the tenant instead of the landlord, and in many cases (including several in this forum) landlords have been left out of pocket when tenants have not paid their rent.

Its also a very common practice for tenants to ask landlords to lie on the rent-allowance application form about what the rent for the property is- in order that it comes in under the ceiling for a particular area, and despite what many people think, many landlords do not like lying on official forms.....

With respect of my locking the thread quick enough- if you check- the thread was open for almost a week- and had input from numerous people. I genuinely felt the original question had been satisfactorily dealt with and the thread was very much off topic.

If you would like to start a new thread on rent-allowance (or indeed any property related topic)- by all means do so, that is the purpose of this forum after all.

If you are unhappy with how the forum is moderated- there is a prescribed dispute process, you are also free to request the assistance of a CMOD- or indeed you can approach me directly to discuss any matter by PM or e-mail, I certainly won't take anything personally.

Best wishes,

Shane

Treehouse72

First, I'm going to try and be more polite on this forum.

But let me say that people need to realise how painful it was during the boom to be one of the people saying the Emperor had no clothes, only to invite ridicule and name calling. Having the Taoiseach tell you to commit suicide. Listening to people tell you about their investment apartment with all the - yes - smugness you could possibly imagine. You cannot believe the resentment people like me built up in that time knowing that we were right and not being able to do anything about it, other then warn friends and family till we were blue in the face. It was a bloody horrible time and a degree of payback has to be expected. It really does.

Second, almost nobody on this forum is discussing property investment!!! Myself included. Talk about property prices is code, proxy for the quality of your family's life. That's all 99% of this talk is about. So when the bears say "It'll be 50k cheaper in 2 years, wait till then", it's not because we're trying to predict a Gordon Gekko style investment killing. Rather, it's just another way of saying "That 50k can buy your family holidays in Spain, new cars, nice clothes or a university education instead". So when people say, as they routinely do, "I'm buying for my family, not as an investment" they are missing the point by a wide margin.

Darlughda

smccarrick wrote: »

I accept that rent allowance and whether or not its accepted is a massive issue for very many people. Its not simply a lazy attitude on the part of landlords where they are unwilling to accept rent-allowance, more often than not its the manner in which it can take a considerable amount of time to setup rent-allowance, there is considerable paperwork for landlords, its paid directly to the tenant instead of the landlord, and in many cases (including several in this forum) landlords have been left out of pocket when tenants have not paid their rent.

Indeed, the paperwork is quite overwhelming for any tenant, far more running around is required of the tenant seeking rent allowance than the simple signature of a rent book neccesary of the Landlord.

It can take a tenant up to 3 months to get all the necessary paperwork from the various agencies involved- in my case (Dublin City Council, SWO etc) but all the landlord needed to do at the end of the day was to sign his signature on a form that he had no requirement to chase down, queue for, quiz the weary person at the counter was it the right one etc

Regardless of who is paying the rent, there is no difference between RA tenants and other tenants leaving landlords 'out of pocket'

smccarrick wrote: »

Its also a very common practice for tenants to ask landlords to lie on the rent-allowance application form about what the rent for the property is- in order that it comes in under the ceiling for a particular area, and despite what many people think, many landlords do not like lying on official forms.....

Because and especially with recent changes in housing allowance, as a prospective tenant you desperately need somewhere to live, or to stay living where you are, of course you are going to say oh, yes , my landlord heard the new regulations regarding the ceiling, so he has magnimonously decided to drop my rent by €10. Of course this doesnt happen. Its a game. We all know it. We pretend to the CWO we are only paying the ceiling rent (otherwise we get no rent allowance AT ALL), and then have to suck it up, and pay extra to the landlord despite the fact that our SW payments are decreasing all the time. Whats the alternative?

smccarrick wrote: »

With respect of my locking the thread quick enough- if you check- the thread was open for almost a week- and had input from numerous people. I genuinely felt the original question had been satisfactorily dealt with and the thread was very much off topic.

I disagree. And no, I will not be engaging in the boards.ie dispute process, for obvious reasons

The_Conductor

Darlughda- fine.
Feel free to open a new thread to discuss rent-allowance, if that is what you would like to do. If you don't want to open a dispute- thats fine also- its your perogative. There is no conspiracy here.

Shane

Darlughda

smccarrick wrote: »

Darlughda- fine.
There is no conspiracy here.

Shane

Shane, thanks for your response.
Unfortunately , I must reply to this as you used the word 'conspiracy'.

I never suggested that, never even thought it. In fact it actually shows how disengenous you are being by using such a term that is not even remotely to do with the topic, and to be frank is used by somebody trying to be condescending, as you well know.

The_Conductor

Darlughda wrote: »

Shane, thanks for your response.
Unfortunately , I must reply to this as you used the word 'conspiracy'.

I never suggested that, never even thought it. In fact it actually shows how disengenous you are being by using such a term that is not even remotely to do with the topic, and to be frank is used by somebody trying to be condescending, as you well know.

Sigh.....- I'm not being disengenuous- or condescending.
Arguing with moderators on other fora would normally earn a poster a ban.
I'm of a different school of thought- I enjoy hearing viewpoints that are diametrically opposed to my own- I feel everyone benefits when both sides of an equation are fully in the open.

Other posters who have had posts removed or modified, or indeed posted in threads that were moved elsewhere or deleted (for whatever reason)- are very quick to start disputes and claim the moderators have some sort of vendetta against them, or are conspiring in some manner. This includes posters in this forum (its rare, but it does happen). When you stated you would not be engaging in Boards.ie dispute resolutions 'for obvious reasons'- I didn't (and still don't) understand what you were implying, but I am happy to leave it at that.

I was genuinely offering you the opportunity to start a new thread on Rent-Allowance, if you so chose to do so- and that offer stands. I'm leaving it at that- quite frankly I don't have the time or the energy to continue this conversation. I am very much in favour of both sides of any situation having an open venue to discuss or debate the situations they find themselves in. Its not as easy to do on the internet as it might be in a formal environment- but it is useful for getting viewpoints different to your own, and perhaps better understand how or why someone might be in such disagreement with you.

Kind regards,

Shane