Freesat Lifespan

pa990

When DSO is completed in the UK, and the vast vast majority will have access to Digital TV via an aerial.. Will it be economical for the freesat model to continue ?

Just something that came to mind when i was looking at a site that mentioned that there would be 99% (population) coverage of digital TV in the UK by ASO

watty

Freesat is for the 1%
That's over 600,000 people

Saorsat is for 2% to 8%, lets say 5%, about 175,000 people

Trevord

Important to keep in mind also that population is not evenly spatially distributed.

The last one percent of population are in areas of low population density and hence the non freeview coverage measured by area is >1%. I'm sure the exact figure is somewhere.

Aside from that the claimed versus actual freeview coverage may differ. My knowledge of Freeview is based on staying in a few hotels in Belfast. Pixelation seemed to be an issue on some channels.

Bloke in Richer Sounds in Belfast told me that he has no freeview reception and is living 8 miles from city centre.

mjsmyth

Freesat is not in competition with Freeview.. It is there for people who, for whatever reason after ASO, cannot receive Freeview.

pa990

i understand that FreeView and FreeSat are not in competition to each other, i was just concerned that running a Satellite service for such a small % was worthwhile and whether or not addition channels would join the line up, knowing that the additional viewers that would be gained would be minimal, and possibly not financially worthwhile


i you know what i mean ..

slegs

pa990 wrote: »

i understand that FreeView and FreeSat are not in competition to each other, i was just concerned that running a Satellite service for such a small % was worthwhile and whether or not addition channels would join the line up, knowing that the additional viewers that would be gained would be minimal, and possibly not financially worthwhile


i you know what i mean ..

Its a coverage thing...costs go exponentially to cover the last 1-2% due to geographical issues. It is inversely exponentially cheaper to use satellite to cover this last 1-2%. 98-99% coverage is not acceptable in UK so freesat is here to stay.

Its not like Ireland where in scenarios like this before we just say it costs too much (even though we are now also moving the same way with Saorsat)

watty

In 1989 the BBC quoted a real coverage of 99.3% for four channels. (i.e. no noticable noise and ordinary roof aerial). They planned to add further relays and assist in Self-help licenced Community Transmitters. This was all UHF only.

Irish TV coverage has always been abysmal, hence the aborted change to UHF only as they didn't have the money for all the additional UHF relays here to replace the fringe VHF that many people get with RTE1 & RTE2.

Current TG4 is about 95% or less (at BBC standards of 1980s quality) and TV3 only 80%. There are currently about 150 Analogue TX sites. There will only be 51 DTT sites. Even so, TG4 will have far better coverage than at present. The quality of RTE1 & RTE2 coverage will be higher and TV3 will have great increase in coverage. But that still leaves coverage far below UK levels. They regard Encryption free Basic channels on Satellite as mandatory to assist their 99% DTT coverage.

We will have 92% to 98% DTT coverage depending on exactly how good an outdoor aerial you are prepared to pay for and install. Thus the success of Kasat launch between November 2010 and January 2011 and the subsequent Saorsat service (Copy of Saorview, Free to Air, un-encrypted on 9E Ka Band spot) is vital.

Freesat is here to stay, but may eventually in 10 years time be on Ka Band narrower spot beam that might exclude a lot of Ireland. That's hard to say.

Hopefully Saorsat becomes a reality.

Sam Russell

slegs wrote: »

Its a coverage thing...costs go exponentially to cover the last 1-2% due to geographical issues. It is inversely exponentially cheaper to use satellite to cover this last 1-2%. 98-99% coverage is not acceptable in UK so freesat is here to stay.

Its not like Ireland where in scenarios like this before we just say it costs too much (even though we are now also moving the same way with Saorsat)

Well, if Saorsat is successful, it will be used by a lot more than the last 3%. It is a lowcost, elegant solution to DTT coverage for remote areas. It is also a good solution for apartments, hotels, and other large buildings. Given its nature, distribution is simpler than Astra @ 28.2E for large buildings.

Freesat is a cheaper option for the Beeb than going with $ky. If Freesat is only for remote areas, why does the Beeb and Itv have every region with its own channel? Surely they could cut down on the regional variations and use that bandwidth for HD.

slegs

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, if Saorsat is successful, it will be used by a lot more than the last 3%. It is a lowcost, elegant solution to DTT coverage for remote areas. It is also a good solution for apartments, hotels, and other large buildings. Given its nature, distribution is simpler than Astra @ 28.2E for large buildings.

Agreed...a very nice side effect is that it will be very popular due to the Irish familarity with satellite TV but the clear intent is to have cheap viable solution to provide full coverage in addition to DTT.

watty

Sam Russell wrote: »

If Freesat is only for remote areas, why does the Beeb and Itv have every region with its own channel? Surely they could cut down on the regional variations and use that bandwidth for HD.

It's not just remote areas, but people without coverage. My dad as the crow flies is not far from Divis, and in a large city. He has no DTT.

Most or maybe all regions have "remote parts" as well as people with no DTT. So each region needs their own content.

lawhec

Some parts of Belfast are shielded from Divis, around the Hannastown area of West Belfast a relay from Black Mountain is required while north of the city heading towards the Whiteabbey/Twinbrook/UU Jordanstwon Campus on the road to Carrickfergus there's a TV & FM relay at Carnmoney Hill.

Once DSO is completed in the UK, approx 90% of the population should be able to receive the whole 6 multiplex Freeview service, possibly more if better aerials are installed (coverage relates to a grouped (where applicable) 10 element outdoor aerial). The remaining 9% or so will get a "Freeview lite" service of only the three PSB multiplexes (BBC, ITV/CH4 along with CH5, HD mux.) With that figure of 99% it could again increase with better aerials in fringe places. Some self-help schemes are converting to DTT but many are expiring at analogue closure.

Freesat itself is not a costly service to run, no broadcasting is being duplicated from that being available to Sky (except for a special feed of Channel 5 on a BBC rented 2D transponder) so Freesat itself doesn't have to hire any transponders from either SES Astra or Eutelsat, only the broadcasters. Freesat lies more in being a delivered platform from its STB's and built-in receivers in some televisions, providing 7 day EPG information and text/data services (MHEG5) to appropriate receivers. If a broadcaster is FTA at 28.2/.5 East, it can quite easily join Freesat if it wants to. Sky News is the main notable exception.

Even with a full six mux Freeview reception installation, there's still material available on Freesat that can provide complementary programming to what's available terrestrially. I'm actually surprised that a stand alone Freeview/Freesat combined receiver with PVR hasn't been developed, the only ones available are televisions with built-in Freesat from Panasonic and Sony.

Freesat will still be around for some time to come, it doesn't have to be super-popular to be a success

slegs

lawhec wrote: »

Some parts of Belfast are shielded from Divis, around the Hannastown area of West Belfast a relay from Black Mountain is required while north of the city heading towards the Whiteabbey/Twinbrook/UU Jordanstwon Campus on the road to Carrickfergus there's a TV & FM relay at Carnmoney Hill.

Once DSO is completed in the UK, approx 90% of the population should be able to receive the whole 6 multiplex Freeview service, possibly more if better aerials are installed (coverage relates to a grouped (where applicable) 10 element outdoor aerial). The remaining 9% or so will get a "Freeview lite" service of only the three PSB multiplexes (BBC, ITV/CH4 along with CH5, HD mux.) With that figure of 99% it could again increase with better aerials in fringe places. Some self-help schemes are converting to DTT but many are expiring at analogue closure.

Freesat itself is not a costly service to run, no broadcasting is being duplicated from that being available to Sky (except for a special feed of Channel 5 on a BBC rented 2D transponder) so Freesat itself doesn't have to hire any transponders from either SES Astra or Eutelsat, only the broadcasters. Freesat lies more in being a delivered platform from its STB's and built-in receivers in some televisions, providing 7 day EPG information and text/data services (MHEG5) to appropriate receivers. If a broadcaster is FTA at 28.2/.5 East, it can quite easily join Freesat if it wants to. Sky News is the main notable exception.

Even with a full six mux Freeview reception installation, there's still material available on Freesat that can provide complementary programming to what's available terrestrially. I'm actually surprised that a stand alone Freeview/Freesat combined receiver with PVR hasn't been developed, the only ones available are televisions with built-in Freesat from Panasonic and Sony.

Freesat will still be around for some time to come, it doesn't have to be super-popular to be a success

It was my understanding that Freesat owns/leases its transponders now on Astra 2D since they went FTA i.e. they are not Sky transponders. Sky would have no interest in this cost seeing as they get no wholesale revenue from BBC/ITV anymore. Am I incorrect?

lawhec

slegs wrote: »

It was my understanding that Freesat owns/leases its transponders now on Astra 2D since they went FTA i.e. they are not Sky transponders. Sky would have no interest in this cost seeing as they get no wholesale revenue from BBC/ITV anymore. Am I incorrect?

Not 100% certain but it is my understanding that the transponders are leased by the broadcasters themselves (BBC, ITV, Channel 4 etc.) with Freesat being a marketing and equipment-standard brand, a similar way that Freeview is promoted. Sky point to these same transmissions for their EPG channel numbers since duplication on the same satellite is pointless and expensive.

However I'm willing to stand corrected.

watty

That's my understanding too. That now they lease direct and only pay Sky for EPG on Sky Boxes. BBC is paid by Sky for Sky putting BBC NI on Irish EPG as Sky wants BBC on ROI EPG and BBC won't pay extra to domestic service for "Foreigners".

It's a bit confusing.
Some pay channels Sky pay them and Sky pays for Carriage, Encryption and EPG.
Some Pay channels pay Sky for Carriage, Encryption and EPG.
The Irish channels in theory as "valuable" ought to be paid by Sky (maybe they are for RTE &TG4 in NI, dunno). But RTE thought it good enough deal to only pay for their own dish and have the rest "free" (paid by Sky) so that Sky pay TV would be like a "Wireless" cable service as far as they were concerned.

DWTV and BBC World News TV I think are Free to Carry, a broadcaster can just get permission and rebroadcast. But Sky can't get that permission for 28.2E as BBC World News TV is not for UK viewers. Likely it's on Sky's Italian EPG at no cost to Sky. I do know that many of the "BBC World News TV" carried are not paid for by BBC enterprises by various broadcasters, when I enquired about BBC Prime direct from BBC years ago, the encrypted copies that gave best signals belonged to other broadcasters and not the one the BBC selling direct.

If a broadcaster wants to broadcast Free to Air station, that isn't Free to Carry, they have to pay royalties/rights as well as get permission.

slegs

lawhec wrote: »

Not 100% certain but it is my understanding that the transponders are leased by the broadcasters themselves (BBC, ITV, Channel 4 etc.) with Freesat being a marketing and equipment-standard brand, a similar way that Freeview is promoted. Sky point to these same transmissions for their EPG channel numbers since duplication on the same satellite is pointless and expensive.

However I'm willing to stand corrected.

Just checked lyngsat there and I think you are correct. While the TPs are marked Freesat all the C4 channels are on one or two TP's and BBC ITV the same. So its likely the broadcasters lease themselves.

Macy0161

lawhec wrote: »

Even with a full six mux Freeview reception installation, there's still material available on Freesat that can provide complementary programming to what's available terrestrially. I'm actually surprised that a stand alone Freeview/Freesat combined receiver with PVR hasn't been developed, the only ones available are televisions with built-in Freesat from Panasonic and Sony.

"red button" content immediately springs to mind. There was talk of a FreesatHD/FreeviewHD combo a few weeks back, which would have the potential to be a great solution for here!

Mike 1972

Even where freeview is available a lot of newer houses in the UK have no aerials -just satellite dishes. In many cases on a new build house a dish installation would be cheaper and give access to more channels. Contrary to popular prejudice a satellite install (properly done) can often be less visually obtrusive than an aerial.

If the UK PSB's went off Astra 2D (or even migrated to Ka band) they would loose a lot of viewers and provoke uproar.

Migration to Ka band would produce little or no benefit to either broadcasters or the general public.

STB

Mike 1972 wrote: »

If the UK PSB's went off Astra 2D (or even migrated to Ka band) they would loose a lot of viewers and provoke uproar.

Migration to Ka band would produce little or no benefit to either broadcasters or the general public.

The lack of space on Astra 2D is a major problem for Freesat (and not Sky) Mike. Its chocka with encrypted content! Encrypted content on the narrowest beam. Encyrpted content that could be moved, but commercial interests will not allow this happen.

The emergence of DTH TV will be the future. 2E,F and G will solve a lot of headaches and legal threats. There is increasing pressure coming from Hollywood rights holders about broadcast territory boundaries. Especially when they sell to Ch4/ITV/BBC etc and its booming into mainland Europe where they are also trying to sell the same content. So the UK will not be affected by narrower beams. The rest of Europe, yes.

28.2 should not be booming limited licensed content into Europe unencrypted. Big problem if your idea is free satellite. The target audience is the UK and Ireland. As HD content progresses this will an even bigger issue. What you are seeing is 2 completely different interests at play. Free vs Pay fighting it out to avoid rights issues.

Mike 1972

STB wrote: »

The lack of space on Astra 2D is a major problem for Freesat (and not Sky) Mike. Its chocka with encrypted content! Encrypted content on the narrowest beam. Encyrpted content that could be moved, but commercial interests will not allow this happen..

Agreed. It was stupidity on the part of SES to ever allow encrypted channels onto 2D.

Although while there may be contractual issues with moving them to 2A/2B/2C there shouldnt be many technical issues most viewers wouldnt even notice with the EPG software taking care of retuning.

Holywood etc were okay with 2D up to now so why should it change now ? There might be some overspill into France/Belgium/The Netherlands (not to mention Ireland) but this is also the case with the terrestrial signals. The UK channels dont appear on continental EPG's and are on a different satellite to the main French/Dutch channels and people there speak English as a second language (if at all). Other than UK/Irish expats the number of viewers on the continent is negligible.

STB

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Holywood etc were okay with 2D up to now so why should it change now ? There might be some overspill into France/Belgium/The Netherlands (not to mention Ireland) but this is also the case with the terrestrial signals. The UK channels dont appear on continental EPG's and are on a different satellite to the main French/Dutch channels and people there speak English as a second language (if at all). Other than UK/Irish expats the number of viewers on the continent is negligible.

ASTRA 2E,F,G Ku-band capacity will allow SES ASTRA to enhance and secure its existing offering to major Direct-to-Home (DTH) markets in the UK and Ireland.

With a Ku-band payload specifically designed to meet the requirements of some of Europe’s largest DTH broadcasters, the satellites will have spot beam and pan-European beam switching capabilities to accommodate both pay-TV and free-to-air broadcasters, and to provide these customers with increased functionality. SES ASTRA customers in this region include BSkyB, BBC, ITV, Freesat, Channel Four, UK TV, Virgin Media, Five, MTV and Discovery.

Its all about the capacity of the narrowband. Lack of has influenced Ch4's HD plans. Now there are more options. It will all be delivery of HD channels for the future which would be more contentious with the Warners and Sony's of this world. They are unhappy about the free availability of HD content at the best of times. They are already annoyed I would imagine with the light approach taken to HD content on freeview HD.

Q4 2012 is the launch of the first of the new narrowbands.

Interstingly such is the pressure from the broadcasters that SES Astra will move the orbital position of Astra 1N to 28.2E to give interim additional UK 'spot beam' capacity in band C, before moving to 19.2E to replace ASTRA 1G. Thats happening Q2 2011.