Ballydoyle at York

HigginsJ

Thought it was a very encouraging day for the Ballydoyle team today. Obviously Rip's win was great but the performances of Lake Ontario and Joshua Tree. Thought Lake Ontario looked very green still and ran on well towards the end. Joshua Tree's performance was cracking considering Ballydoyles horses will always improve for 1st run of the season and Aidan said the horse was carrying alot of condition.

gscully

HigginsJ wrote: »

Thought it was a very encouraging day for the Ballydoyle team today. Obviously Rip's win was great but the performances of Lake Ontario and Joshua Tree. Thought Lake Ontario looked very green still and ran on well towards the end. Joshua Tree's performance was cracking considering Ballydoyles horses will always improve for 1st run of the season and Aidan said the horse was carrying alot of condition.

I have Joshua Tree in my ten to follow and thought I was on to a good thing when he went with Rewilding. To not run in a year, and then run four furlongs longer, and run that well was a very good sign. I just hope his next race isn't the Leger. Run him in between and get me some points!

RVW was brilliant. Great ride by Murtagh.

UrbanSea

I thought Joshua Tree was going to win it 2 out,what a run.

HigginsJ

I wouldnt run him at all in the Ledger. I think maybe a listed or group 3 race in Ireland at 1m2f and then send him to Champion Stakes in Newmarket. He is clearly very classy.

sonnky

Sariska refused to race today

UrbanSea

HigginsJ wrote: »

I wouldnt run him at all in the Ledger. I think maybe a listed or group 3 race in Ireland at 1m2f and then send him to Champion Stakes in Newmarket. He is clearly very classy.

I think Twice Over looks good for another Champion Stakes.

HigginsJ

sonnky wrote: »

Sariska refused to race today

Yea it was fierce disappointing. Thankfully i backed her with Paddy Power who refunded stakes on her. Good job again

HigginsJ

greetings wrote: »

I think Twice Over looks good for another Champion Stakes.

Personally i think Twice Over is just below top class. Dont get me wrong he is very good but think genuine group one horses will always top him. Byword at Ascot, Rip yesterday.

UrbanSea

I think Rip is overrated,I love the horse,but that was only his 3rd Group 1 at the weekend,people seem to forget. His inconsistency is so frustrating.
I don't think a horse who has won the Champion Stakes,Eclipse and finished third in the Breeders' Cup Classic can be below top class. Twice Over has gotten better with age,and he did finish ahead of Byword at the weekend,finishing farther ahead of him than Byword beat Twice Over at Ascot

supremenovice

greetings wrote: »

I think Rip is overrated,I love the horse,but that was only his 3rd Group 1 at the weekend,people seem to forget. His inconsistency is so frustrating.

Beaten two lengths by Sea the Stars in the Eclipse is better than anything Twice Over has produced.
Plenty of excuses for Rip over the last couple of years too, O'Brien said it is a real challenge to try get him spot on.
I reckon hed beat Fame and Glory over 1m2f.

Goldcupfav

supremenovice wrote: »

Beaten two lengths by Sea the Stars in the Eclipse is better than anything Twice Over has produced.
Plenty of excuses for Rip over the last couple of years too, O'Brien said it is a real challenge to try get him spot on.
I reckon hed beat Fame and Glory over 1m2f.

Dont think Rip get the credit he deserves for that Eclipse run! The only time STS really had to pull out all the stops imo. Agree that a spot on Rip would beat Fame and Glory over 10F easliy. Still think there is more to come from him this season.

HigginsJ

greetings wrote: »

I think Rip is overrated,I love the horse,but that was only his 3rd Group 1 at the weekend,people seem to forget. His inconsistency is so frustrating.
I don't think a horse who has won the Champion Stakes,Eclipse and finished third in the Breeders' Cup Classic can be below top class. Twice Over has gotten better with age,and he did finish ahead of Byword at the weekend,finishing farther ahead of him than Byword beat Twice Over at Ascot

Twice over won sub par Champion Stakes and Eclipse, thats why he is below top class. Rip would always beat him.

Considering the problems Rip has with his legs he is a wonder horse. Think alot of decent O'Brien horses get under-rated unless they are world beaters. If the likes of Cape Blanco or Midas Touch were trained by Stoute or Cecil they would be rated top-class.

UrbanSea

Ballydoyle or any of the other top trainers didn't have any horse of any age that could beat him in the Eclipse,he beat the best that was there at the time.
There's no doubt that Cape Blanco is a top class horse,I can't say the same about Midas Touch.
The derby form is pure ****e where he was beaten 11 lengths,his second to Rewilding is its best form,and he still didn't have a chance with him. I don't think he'll win a Group 1,unless they aim him as a stayer.

HigginsJ

greetings wrote: »

Ballydoyle or any of the other top trainers didn't have any horse of any age that could beat him in the Eclipse,he beat the best that was there at the time.
There's no doubt that Cape Blanco is a top class horse,I can't say the same about Midas Touch.
The derby form is pure ****e where he was beaten 11 lengths,his second to Rewilding is its best form,and he still didn't have a chance with him. I don't think he'll win a Group 1,unless they aim him as a stayer.

Twice Over beat Sri Putra and Viscount Nelson in the Eclipse. Thats about group 3 form at best. RVW, Fame and Glory, Byword and Harbinger were all missing from the Eclipse. Cutlass Bay on his Ganay form would beat Twice Over but like so many horses he has gone backwards since joining Godolphin. The potentially great St. Nicholas Abbey is also MIA. The Eclipse was left open for Twice Over. Simple as that!!

UrbanSea

Rip wouldn't have beaten him at the time of the Eclipse,he wasn't ready,end of.
Harbinger is not a top class horse.
**** it's rating,I would have loved to see him face Twice Over. Fame and Glory would never have been ran in a race that competitive after the Coronation Cup,he needs easy races before the Arc,and has finished behind twice over in the 'below par' Champion Stakes. And Twice Over beat Byword fair and square at York

HigginsJ

greetings wrote: »

Rip wouldn't have beaten him at the time of the Eclipse,he wasn't ready,end of.
Harbinger is not a top class horse.
**** it's rating,I would have loved to see him face Twice Over. Fame and Glory would never have been ran in a race that competitive after the Coronation Cup,he needs easy races before the Arc,and has finished behind twice over in the 'below par' Champion Stakes. And Twice Over beat Byword fair and square at York

Dont agree with your arguments. With horses fit and ready Twice Over would not place in a top class Group One at 1m2f.

Fame and Glory was gone over the top by the Champion Stakes and Arc last year.

Byword won at Ascot so its 1-1 fair and square.

I agree Harbinger's raing is s*** but god he was impressive, but we will never know now.

Rip not being ready for the Eclipse clearly takes away from its form. You cant argue the Eclipse was top class with Sri Putra and Viscount Nelson being placed.

UrbanSea

The race I keep thinking of though is the Breeders' Cup Classic. There is no way a horse who isn't group1 quality would place in it,beaten 2 and a quarter lengths,and that wasn't a weak race,Zenyatta is probably the best horse in the world.
And with Harbinger,there's no doubting it was a hell of a performance. But I think Cape Blanco would have beaten him if they had the chance to meet again. Blanco and Workforce were so worried about each other that they raced too keen and just went head to head,forgetting that there were rivals. If they didn't stay so close to the pace they never would have been outpaced as much as they did. Peslier must have been laughing when he saw them going as fast as they were 3 out,they never would have lasted. If he was kept with Harbinger toward the back I have no doubt that it would never have been an 11length victory. Youmzain isn't a true group 1 horse,I'd put him in a group 2,let him break his duck. Daryakana has been so disappointing this season.
I'm just raging that Harbinger suffered his injury,I would have loved to see it come back,and get put in it's place(or so I think),rather than being hailed as a great,which is stupid to say about a horse that won a single group 1,even though he did break the track record.
I mean,if Workforce had an injury today,and had to be retired,he wouldn't be hailed a great,but has more merit to be called great than Harbinger.He did break the record for the Derby and by 8 lenghts,but the form is ****e. And Harbinger's isn't great either.
When I hear Harbinger being compared to Sea The Stars it really pisses me off. The sight of Sea The Stars moving through the field in the Arc as if the horses were just obstacles in his way between victory was something I'd never forget. How he came out of that rail is beyond me. That race confirmed his undeniable greatness to anyone who had doubted him. Some tards still question him becuase he didn't go and beat horses 10 or 11 lengths.
Workforce beat a 100/1 pacemaker 8 lengths,and Harbinger would never have reproduced that form in a sensibly run race,never mind the Arc.

HigginsJ

I totally agree with you on Harbinger. He cannot be considered great and we will never find out how good he is.

How is Youmzain not a Group One horse? Placed in 3 consecutive Arc's. Thats an incredible achievement.

UrbanSea

That's true,and it's as if he excels in that particular race,but he has never won a Group1,and certainly has had enough tries. Alright maybe I over reacted a bit,but he has ran in 18 consecutive group 1's (could be 17) and hasn't won,his last win was a group 1 in Italy,but look at that,worth 68k and in 06,that's group 3 money. He gets place money,but wouldn't it be better for the horse's confidence to drop him into a winnable race and then try him in G.1 after gaining a win and hoping it'll finally get him into the winners' enclosure.

HigginsJ

greetings wrote: »

That's true,and it's as if he excels in that particular race,but he has never won a Group1,and certainly has had enough tries. Alright maybe I over reacted a bit,but he has ran in 18 consecutive group 1's (could be 17) and hasn't won,his last win was a group 1 in Italy,but look at that,worth 68k and in 06,that's group 3 money. He gets place money,but wouldn't it be better for the horse's confidence to drop him into a winnable race and then try him in G.1 after gaining a win and hoping it'll finally get him into the winners' enclosure.

I guess at this stage of his career they might think a Group 3 is wasting his time. Would he have to give weight away in Group 3's due to his Group 1 placings. He has came so close so often. If he were 2lb better he could have won 10 Group 1's. Was very unfortunate in France earlier this year. Class horse but his running style clearly makes things very difficult.

HigginsJ

Youmzain won the Grand Prix de Saint Cloud Grp 1 in June 08. Beat Soldier of Fortune and Doctor Dino

UrbanSea

Didn't know that.