New practice amp - 5 watt or 15 watt

joeyamg

Howye lads and lassies,

I've decided to get either a fender vibro champ xd or else a fender super champ xd. I wanted a tube amp and prefer the fender clean sound. Now just looking for some advice on whether to get the super or vibro. I only intend on playing in my bedroom (need to be quiet) and the odd jam with other guitarists and a cajon, I'd probably buy a different amp if I started gigging. There's only a 30euro difference between the two, so that really isn't an issue.


The Super Champ is a 15-watt Class AB tube amp, two channels, two 6V6 tubes, one 12AX7 preamp tube, a 10-inch speaker and 16 preamp voices

The Vibro Champ is a 5-watt Class A tube amp, one channel, one 6V6 tube, one 12AX7 preamp tube, an eight-inch speaker and 16 preamp voices,

I've heard that tube amps sound better when they're turned up to 10 so for this reason I think maybe the vibro would be better, also when I'm playing late at night would the vibro sound better at lower volumes? Then again the super has a bigger speaker and extra tube but not sure if I'd ever use that extra power?

Any advice would be much appreciated

population

For practice go with the Vibro. 15W all tube is way loud for the house!!!

padraig_f

I have a Super Champ XD, great sounding amp for the price. One thing though, the tubes don't really overdrive. I read some discussion about whether it was a 100% tube amp when I was buying it and I guess this is what they meant. The tubes seem to more affect the power-amp part of the amp, so you get a nice warm sound but no real tube distortion when you overdrive it.

So when people say tube amps sound better when you turn them up to 10, this may not apply to the SuperChamp/VibroChamp. All it does really is sound louder (not tried the Vibro Champ but assume it's similar construction).

This doesn't bother me as the clean sound is great, and you have the effects channel if you want some distorted sounds. I tend to run it clean most of the time, with a bit of reverb, which is a nice effect on the amp. If it was me, I'd go for the SuperChamp as I think bigger speakers tend to sound better. I use it as a bedroom amp and it's fine for that.

Best thing to do would be to try them out, think I saw them both out in X-Music. Another one to consider (that they also have out there) is the Fender Champion 600. This one does overdrive but is a smallish speaker. Also doesn't have any effects/tone controls.

Demeyes

I'd go with the 5W, it'll be plenty loud and should sound ok at low volumes. I've used a 14W in band practice before and was audible above the drummer and the volume wasn't even on full!

Paolo_M

To give you an idea of volume with a 5 watt amp; it should just under half as loud as 100 Watt amp. Still way too loud for any house.
15 watts will only barely be louder, you may not even notice a difference.

This decision would be best made and which tone you prefer, as there is no real volume difference.

The 15 watt will sound bigger, and fatter and more aggressive. Great for rock.
The 5 watt will be more subdued and mellow sounding. Great for jazz/laid bad blues.

There's also a big difference between a 8" and 10" speaker.
8" speakers sound boxy and thin compared to a 10" speaker.
Then again 10" speakers sound boxy and thin compared to 12" speakers!!

Sandvich

Both of them are Hybrid amps. The 12ax7 is for the phase inverter, not a preamp.

The amp sounds a bit better cranked of course, but it's better to have the extra wattage for that little bit more headroom. People have been able to use the 15 Watter for small gigs. You probably won't manage that with 5 Watts and an 8" speaker.

It's about the best Fender cleans and Tweed sounds you'll get for the price, though.

1/4 W tube is rougly the volume you want for jamming around the house etc., the Vox AC4TV does this. Though it's still a bit loud cranked. 1W is quite a bit louder but still managable.

Sandvich

Paolo_M wrote: »

To give you an idea of volume with a 5 watt amp; it should just under half as loud as 100 Watt amp. Still way too loud for any house.
15 watts will only barely be louder, you may not even notice a difference.

This decision would be best made and which tone you prefer, as there is no real volume difference.

The 15 watt will sound bigger, and fatter and more aggressive. Great for rock.
The 5 watt will be more subdued and mellow sounding. Great for jazz/laid bad blues.

There's also a big difference between a 8" and 10" speaker.
8" speakers sound boxy and thin compared to a 10" speaker.
Then again 10" speakers sound boxy and thin compared to 12" speakers!!

It can depend on the speaker too. For example many people fill their cabs with 10" speakers for a "faster response", a lot of bassists use 4x10s or 8x10s. Of course this will help the low end project more anyway.

Some 1x10s have a similar bass response to a 1x12" too. Of course, a lot of subwoofers you'd find with cheaper audio systems would be smaller than 10" and still go lower, though there'd be a trade of on volume.

It's complicated stuff.

Sandvich

Demeyes wrote: »

I'd go with the 5W, it'll be plenty loud and should sound ok at low volumes. I've used a 14W in band practice before and was audible above the drummer and the volume wasn't even on full!

There's not much point going for the 5W over th 15W to be honest. The 5W is solely for bedroom jamming, but even then you're not going to get cranked tones without an attenuator.

The 15W will sound great at lower volumes(remember, this is primarily a MODELING amp, just an extremely good one), has a bigger speaker and will be jammable.

A lot of people swap the speaker for an Eminence Ragin' Cajun or similar - the extra sensitivity makes it a decent little gigging amp(makes it similar to 30-50W tube).

joeyamg

Cheers for all of the comments, I hadn't really considered that the bigger speaker will sound better even at lower volumes. Went with the 15 watt in the end, just anxiously waiting upon delivery. I plan to swap the speaker out, might go with a Jensen vintage though.

Sandvich

Be careful with the speaker. You may be surprised with the stock one.

The thing is, it's pretty much a modelling amp, so it probably models the cabs too. Because of that, it'd be like running a cab into a cab. You need to get a fairly flat response speaker.

The Jensen Neo looks like a better choice, though it's kind of costly. A lot go with the Ragin' Cajun, but it seems to have an upper mid bump.

landsleaving

I bought a super champ a little while ago and the stock speaker is good. I was going to change it, but I don't think the difference would be worth it, it sounds perfect as it is. I'd give it a good listen before you buy a replacement.

Sandvich

landsleaving wrote: »

I bought a super champ a little while ago and the stock speaker is good. I was going to change it, but I don't think the difference would be worth it, it sounds perfect as it is. I'd give it a good listen before you buy a replacement.

It's just that with a more efficient speaker, you can effectively have a 30 Watt t00b amp. It'd be giggable with. It helps that it has a ton of headroom too.

Headroom is usually the issue more than volume in an amp. You can get a 5 Watter over a drummer; but you'll never get a clean tone with it really unless it's been specifically designed to be as clean as possible, and even that's pushing it.

zafo

Sandvich wrote: »

It's just that with a more efficient speaker, you can effectively have a 30 Watt t00b amp. It'd be giggable with. It helps that it has a ton of headroom too.

How does this work?

Sandvich

zafo wrote: »

How does this work?

I don't know exactly how to describe it.

It's like getting more miles to the gallon I guess. Some speakers just work more efficiently than others.

Sensitivity means how sensitive it is to current moving through it, it takes less current to make it move a certain amount. Speakers are inherently on the inefficient side(though sound is far, far cheaper to create, than say, heat), there's always going to be some that are a little less so. It's the amount of sound it'll create with 1 Watt at 1 meter.

I don't know the sensitivity of the speaker in the SCXD, I think it's around 96db which is about average really. The Ragin Cajun is 100db which is going to be quite a bit louder. Some speakers go all the way up to 103.5db which would probably make one of those 5 Watters giggable.

One of the reasons the AC30 is so loud for example is that it's Celestion Blues have around 100db sensitivity which is a bit more sensitive than average, especially for vintage speakers.

Paolo_M

zafo wrote: »

How does this work?

It's pretty simple.

A speaker has efficiency rating which is measure of how many decibels of sound it can produce given 1 Watt of power.

A 10dB difference in SPL (sound pressure level) is the equivalent, roughly, of doubling the volume. Sound pressure is what presses against your ear drum to make you perceive sound.

A speaker that has 103dB efficiency will therefore make the same amp sound twice as loud as if you used a speaker with 93dB efficiency.

103dB efficiency means that that speaker can produce 103dB of sound pressure when 1 watt of power from the amplifier. The 93dB one can, you guessed it , only produce 93dB of sound pressure given the same 1 watt from your amp.

More watts simply = more dBs.

I'll post a video sometime of my Harley Benton 5 watter with it own crappy stock 6" speaker and then plug it into my 2 X 12 with V30 and G12H so you can hear for yourselves the difference in volume and in the low end girth. You'll also hear a really cheap, boxy character to the stock speaker.

Sandvich

One of the reason SS amps are quieter is that they come with crappy speakers.

This is also part of why they sound so harsh, it's like they're using more full range speakers in them or something.

zafo

Paolo_M wrote: »

It's pretty simple.

A speaker has efficiency rating which is measure of how many decibels of sound it can produce given 1 Watt of power.

A 10dB difference in SPL (sound pressure level) is the equivalent, roughly, of doubling the volume. Sound pressure is what presses against your ear drum to make you perceive sound.

A speaker that has 103dB efficiency will therefore make the same amp sound twice as loud as if you used a speaker with 93dB efficiency.

103dB efficiency means that that speaker can produce 103dB of sound pressure when 1 watt of power from the amplifier. The 93dB one can, you guessed it , only produce 93dB of sound pressure given the same 1 watt from your amp.

More watts simply = more dBs.

I'll post a video sometime of my Harley Benton 5 watter with it own crappy stock 6" speaker and then plug it into my 2 X 12 with V30 and G12H so you can hear for yourselves the difference in volume and in the low end girth. You'll also hear a really cheap, boxy character to the stock speaker.

I get all that but I still don't quite see how a more efficient speaker will give you effectively twice the power (not volume) of the amp. For example say my GA5 sounds great with a 12" speaker but just doesn't have the power to drive a 4x12 so it sounds pretty crap through one. So if the 4x12 had more efficient speakers would it sound better or would the amp still suffer from only having five watts of power to move the four speakers?

Cheers for your replies.

Sandvich

zafo wrote: »

I get all that but I still don't quite see how a more efficient speaker will give you effectively twice the power (not volume) of the amp. For example say my GA5 sounds great with a 12" speaker but just doesn't have the power to drive a 4x12 so it sounds pretty crap through one. So if the 4x12 had more efficient speakers would it sound better or would the amp still suffer from only having five watts of power to move the four speakers?

Cheers for your replies.

I doubt it sounding crap through a 4x12 has to do with having not enough power to drive one. It depends on the speakers. Some speakers sound bad at low volume, and obviously 5 Watts isn't going to push them very hard since it has to be divided up between them.

But there's nothing to say you can't drive a 4x12 with a 5 Watter, and people actually regularly do this with their HT-5 or similar heads. I would say it has a lot more to do with the voicing of the speaker than anything - most 4x12s nowadays will be voiced more for Hard Rock/Metal as that's what they're associated with, whereas 1x12s will have a bit more variety in tone, bluesy combos will traditionally be 1x12 or 2x12 for example.

If you ever play around with a modelling and swap around the cab sims you can easily see what a difference it makes. Some cabs will make some amps sound like fizzy crap. A lot of the smooth, tube like tone is actually coming from the voicing of the speaker rather than anything else. If you were to make a direct out from the vast majority of tube amps, it would sound like a wall of fizz and be indistinguishable from a cheap solid sate amp(weirdly, amps have more identifiable "character" with the top end missing; very high frequencies seem to distract from the mid frequency detail) That's why they have "speaker emulated out". Similarly, running an amp through a speaker designed for a darker voiced amp may make it sound harsh and trebley.

Sandvich

How is the SCXD going for you? I'm kind of interested in one too.

Also, I've been reading up a bit lately and it seems the 10db number is a bit false. In reality it's closer to 6db on average, though it's so hard to measure.

http://www.ridproductionschool.com/glossary/decibel.htm

A lot of the reason why larger amps probably don't seem many times as loud is that they expend a lot more energy into low end response. Bass amps require ridiculous wattage by comparison. And also that they tend to be designed to remain clean for longer, so don't whack the power tubes as hard.

So in reality you should need 4 times the power for twice the volume(a sensitive speaker can also double the volume if you're going from 97 to 103). Though what "twice the volume" actually means is another thing.