You cannot be Irish unless you're a Catholic - Eamon de Valera

Dan133269

I'm pretty sure I've read these words from Eamon de Valera but I cannot find a source to reference it. Anyone care to help?

Rebelheart

Dan133269 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure I've read these words from Eamon de Valera but I cannot find a source to reference it. Anyone care to help?

I would very definitely need a source for that. I wouldn't be too surprised if John A Costello* said that, but DeValera?


*“I am an Irishman second: I am a Catholic first and I accept without qualification in all respects the teaching of the hierarchy and the church to which I belong.” He told the Dáil: “I, as a Catholic, obey my church authorities and will continue to do so.” (April 1951). It was Costello and his government (excluding the courageous Noel Browne) who infamously stood outside the church in 1949 when Douglas Hyde was buried in St Patrick's Cathedral.

Morlar

Dan133269 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure I've read these words from Eamon de Valera but I cannot find a source to reference it. Anyone care to help?

I don't believe he did say those words "You cannot be Irish unless you're a Catholic".

Rebelheart

The Battle of Kinsale (am I the only Irish person who does this in the afternoon when I see the clock?!).

mikemac

Well firstly, Taoiseach John A Costello had something similar

In April 1951, during debate on the ill-fated Mother and Child Scheme, opposed by the Catholic bishops led by Archbishop John Charles McQuaid, then taoiseach John A Costello felt impelled to announce, “I am an Irishman second: I am a Catholic first and I accept without qualification in all respects the teaching of the hierarchy and the church to which I belong.” He told the Dáil: “I, as a Catholic, obey my church authorities and will continue to do so.”

I think this issue from De Valera goes back to the issue of appointing Letitia Dunbar-Harrison, a Protestant librarian in Mayo. Sure with a name like that of course she is.
But I can't find that quote in your OP and realy, I doubt De Valera said it

fontanalis

Rebelheart wrote: »

I would very definitely need a source for that. I wouldn't be too surprised if John A Costello* said that, but DeValera?


*“I am an Irishman second: I am a Catholic first and I accept without qualification in all respects the teaching of the hierarchy and the church to which I belong.” He told the Dáil: “I, as a Catholic, obey my church authorities and will continue to do so.” (April 1951). It was Costello and his government (excluding the courageous Noel Browne) who infamously stood outside the church in 1949 when Douglas Hyde was buried in St Patrick's Cathedral.

What a muppet and muppets for the Hyde funeral.

Manach

I'm sure their shades are crushed. By falling to take into account the prevailing cultural contexts at the time & calling them "Muppets" is just historical revisionism & gratuitous Catholic bashing.

Dan133269

Thanks for the replies, I must have got mixed up.

fontanalis

Manach wrote: »

I'm sure their shades are crushed. By falling to take into account the prevailing cultural contexts at the time & calling them "Muppets" is just historical revisionism & gratuitous Catholic bashing.

How's it catholic bashing? I'm bashing the people for taking their beliefs to (in my opinion) a ridulous level.

brianthebard

Its pretty unthinking to bash them for that, especially for the time period we're talking about. There was a girl from my school that died and we were expected to stand outside the Methodist Church.

fontanalis

Ok, calling them muppets was not big or clever but bloody hell. I know it was a different time and influence of the church and all that but (again) bloody hell. It just frustrates me to think that htis kind of thing went on and up until only recently.

brianthebard

Did you think that perhaps it wasn't just the influence of the Catholic Church that was to blame but also the wishes of the Church that Hyde belonged to? (not that I think there is any 'blame' to be portioned out here, I'm sure every man and woman who stood outside for the funeral paid their respects to the fullest and I'm sure the Hyde family agreed).

Denerick

Hyde's family wouldn't have been disappointed by the Catholic statesmen of the day politely and respectfully waiting outside the church. Hyde was widely revered in Irish society as a cultural icon, for his long leadership of the Gaelic movement and for being an all round character (Not to mention President)

The family would have understood that this was the Catholic teaching at the time, and would have respected that.

Of course from a modern perspective it sounds loopy. But if I had a Jewish or Muslim friend who died and it was expected that non Jews and Non Muslims were to stand respectfully outside the place of worship, I wouldn't think twice about it. The reverse it also true.

mikemac

In school in the 1990's a student in our school was knocked down and killed.
We in the CBS formed a guard of honor and waited outside the Methodist Church.
We didn't enter, that's what our teachers instructed us to do.
I don't find what happened for Hyde strange at all.

Also, the thread title of this thread needs to be changed if nobody can find a link for De Valera.

Fratton Fred

feelingstressed wrote: »

Well firstly, Taoiseach John A Costello had something similar



I think this issue from De Valera goes back to the issue of appointing Letitia Dunbar-Harrison, a Protestant librarian in Mayo. Sure with a name like that of course she is.
But I can't find that quote in your OP and realy, I doubt De Valera said it

was it that? i didn't think he had much to do with that issue. I do remember something about Catholic doctors though. a hospital refused to employ a non catholic doctor and his complaint was upheld because most Catholic's would expect a catholic to administer the last rites if no Priest was on hand, or something like that.

Corsendonk

I know this is a bit off thread slightly but I always remember my Dad telling me about going to see Ireland play Yugoslavia in Dalymount in the 50s and before the game everyone was threated with possible excommunication for going to see communists play. Dalymount had its biggest gate for years. He was more interested in seening a good football game. Your posts about been told to stay outside brought to mind the story again and I found this interesting article and it mentions DeValera involvement.

http://irishlabour.com/?p=123

who the fug

OT

Best view of Dalymount was from the Garda Association offices in the building which use to be one corner of the ground.

I know am going way off topic but any truth in the story the the coppers were order to watch the crowd with their backs to the game, after an incident when Ireland scored and all you could see was a load of police caps in the air.

OT over



Remember in the 50s Lucy down in Cork drove a dance hall owner out of business for opening during Lent, in Bantry he use to read the names of the people who went to the Protestant dance on a Saturday from the pulpit on Sunday morning, this continued until the early seventies

So standing outside would be the norm, also remember in the nineties a Scottish member of the House of Lords got into trouble for attending the funeral of a Catholic, so this is not all one sided

ejmaztec

who the fug wrote: »

OT

Best view of Dalymount was from the Garda Association offices in the building which use to be one corner of the ground.

I know am going way off topic but any truth in the story the the coppers were order to watch the crowd with their backs to the game, after an incident when Ireland scored and all you could see was a load of police caps in the air.

OT over



Remember in the 50s Lucy down in Cork drove a dance hall owner out of business for opening during Lent, in Bantry he use to read the names of the people who went to the Protestant dance on a Saturday from the pulpit on Sunday morning, this continued until the early seventies

So standing outside would be the norm, also remember in the nineties a Scottish member of the House of Lords got into trouble for attending the funeral of a Catholic, so this is not all one sided

Wasn't he also one of the head honchos of one of the Scottish protestant churches, and this put him more in the firing line from his religious colleagues?

In England, I think as far as the 1970s, Catholics weren't allowed to set foot in protestant churches, but apparently this wasn't enough to stop many of them attending weddings and funerals.

It seems that the actions of ordinary people, in going against these stupid rules, force change at the top.

walrusgumble

Dan133269 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure I've read these words from Eamon de Valera but I cannot find a source to reference it. Anyone care to help?

Originally, it was NEITHER OF THEM!

These were the words of DP Moran in his Nationalist Paper the Leader. This was around the period where the Gaelic League enjoyed patrongage from both communitities and irrespective of "class". Obviously his out burst alienated the Protestant community.

who the fug

ejmaztec wrote: »

In England, I think as far as the 1970s, Catholics weren't allowed to set foot in protestant churches, but apparently this wasn't enough to stop many of them attending weddings and funerals.
.

More fun was the ban on Catholics attending Trinty in Ireland by the bishops, no problem for English Catholics to to attend , and they use to get a full grant for it as well

Lord McKay was the guy

Fuinseog

Dan133269 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure I've read these words from Eamon de Valera but I cannot find a source to reference it. Anyone care to help?

Doughlas Hyde, Wolf tone, Parnell

Fuinseog

fontanalis wrote: »

What a muppet and muppets for the Hyde funeral.

it was the way things were at the time, just like there was an anti gay atmosphere in the 1980s or indeed anti british.

Rebelheart

who the fug wrote: »

Lord McKay was the guy

Very interesting. Never knew that - and it appears to have happened as recently as 1989 according to that article.

Rebelheart

Corsendonk wrote: »

I know this is a bit off thread slightly but I always remember my Dad telling me about going to see Ireland play Yugoslavia in Dalymount in the 50s and before the game everyone was threated with possible excommunication for going to see communists play. Dalymount had its biggest gate for years. He was more interested in seening a good football game. Your posts about been told to stay outside brought to mind the story again and I found this interesting article and it mentions DeValera involvement.

http://irishlabour.com/?p=123

There's definitely a good book to be written about anti-communism/socialism and many members of the Catholic (and Protestant?) hierarchy. I remember a taxidriver telling me about a similar boycott/attack by the CC on a socialist (a socialist group?) in Ballyfermot decades ago (1950s?)

Rebelheart

Denerick wrote: »

The family would have understood that this was the Catholic teaching at the time, and would have respected that.

Of course from a modern perspective it sounds loopy. But if I had a Jewish or Muslim friend who died and it was expected that non Jews and Non Muslims were to stand respectfully outside the place of worship, I wouldn't think twice about it. The reverse it also true.

On the other hand the fact that in 1949 Noel Browne ignored the entirety of his cabinet colleagues and went ahead into the Church of Ireland for Hyde's funeral is significant (assuming Browne was Catholic, that is).

Fratton Fred

who the fug wrote: »

More fun was the ban on Catholics attending Trinty in Ireland by the bishops, no problem for English Catholics to to attend , and they use to get a full grant for it as well

Lord McKay was the guy

Didn't Mary MacAleese have to get permission frokm the Bishop to attend Trinity?

Lord McKay was a Free Presbytarian. I know they are as much protestant as any other Church, but they tend to hold a slightly harder line than most others.

I believe most Orangemen are Free Presbytarians.

who the fug

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Didn't Mary MacAleese have to get permission frokm the Bishop to attend Trinity?

Is she that old ?

Fratton Fred

who the fug wrote: »

Is she that old ?

yes, but being President provides plenty of beauty therapy:D

It could have been Mary Robinson actually, they both went to Trinity.

Snickers Man

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Didn't Mary MacAleese have to get permission frokm the Bishop to attend Trinity?

No. She wouldn't have needed it on two grounds.

1) She didn't start at Trinity until the early 1970s (she did a post grad there) by which time the ban was lifted;

2) it wouldn't have applied to her anyway because she was a Nordie. It was only catholics from the diocese of Dublin (which ecclesiastically includes much of Leinster) that were excluded by their local authorities. CAtholics from elsewhere in Ireland had no such stricture, although in practice few went to Trinity.

Snickers Man

fontanalis wrote: »

What a muppet and muppets for the Hyde funeral.

And what muppet said this in the Dail round about that time?

" the Hierarchy has informed the Government that they must regard the mother and child scheme ....as opposed to Catholic social teaching. This decision I, as a Catholic, immediately accepted without hesitation."

Yes it was the utterly craven and obedient Dr Noel Browne, Minister for Health. It's in the Dail record.

Which muppet do you think he most resembles?

As for attendance by Catholics at Protestant funerals: my family had just such a dilemma round about that time. A much beloved uncle by marriage, who happened to be a Protestant, died and my parents, both Catholics, were pondering whether it was permissible to attend his funeral. They were advised by a friend of theirs a priest, on no account to ask formally for permission because McQuaid, the then arch bishop, was of the opinion that "error had no rights" and would certainly have refused it.

He assured them that they could in all conscience attend, provided they took no part in the actual service. So they did. As did the rest of the extended family.

It was a different time back then. The church had a lot of influence because people took it seriously. There WAS a rebellious streak, but it tended to manifest itself in issues of little consequence. For example, the Case of the Communist Footballers was reckoned to have boosted the gate at Dalymount significantly when McQuaid started complaining about it.

As for agitation on divorce, contraception, freedom of church influence on education etc etc That all had to wait for another decade.

Dan133269

Snickers Man wrote: »

And what muppet said this in the Dail round about that time?

" the Hierarchy has informed the Government that they must regard the mother and child scheme ....as opposed to Catholic social teaching. This decision I, as a Catholic, immediately accepted without hesitation."

Yes it was the utterly craven and obedient Dr Noel Browne, Minister for Health. It's in the Dail record.

Which muppet do you think he most resembles?

very well researched. I would imagine he was probably engaging in damage limitation at that stage? In his essay "Church and State in Modern Ireland" he goes into it.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Irelands-Evolving-Constitution-1937-1997-Collected/dp/1901362175

He mentions how he was the only one in the cabinet prepared to go against the wishes of McQuaid on the mother and child scheme. Either way the damage was done and the coalition fell.

MarchDub

Manach wrote: »

By falling to take into account the prevailing cultural contexts at the time & calling them "Muppets" is just historical revisionism & gratuitous Catholic bashing.

Agree. I addressed the very same issue on the De Valera thread some time ago and answered it, as you do, within the context of its time. And within the contedxt of its day it was normal/usual practce for everyone. Protestants did the same standing outside Catholic Churches.

The problem is that the same old chestnuts, half truths, historic myths all get dragged out again ad infinitum - long after they have been addressed and well answered on another thread.

CDfm

I was at a Protestant Carol service in Cork in the 70's and at least one catholic priest was at it and he was a cousin & friendly with the protestant minister.

I also remember the local protestants distributing Books of Psalms by Gideon and they had asked a priests permission and he accompanied them and introduced them.

So I think it may have been down to individuals moreso than anything else.

A relative back from the UK mentioned something about not going into the church for protestant funerals -so practice may have varied -but to me it would have been odd not to. We were impressed by the lack of kneeling.

Some of the protestant churches had limited space too as the congregations were not huge.

I cannot imagine we were the only family or town like that.