What will it take for Irish to stand up

Nevie

Hey guys.

I'm at my wits end here. I'm just wondering has the whole divide and conquer thing completely worked on us Irish. Why am i hearing more bank bail outs, when they wont help small businesses, are increasing interest rates, the government taking the P*#s out of us.

Im sure i don't need to start listing off all the things that are wrong with the country but is there anyone willing to stand up (including myself) and say enough is enough. The third level students decided only recently they were going to protest. I thought we could rely on the Students to have some impact but it seems they've no passion for the country either, and its taken them how long to get up off their arses, and only for their own cause.

Civil .v. Private, men .v. women national .v. non national. We're all being played off one another and only the men being chauffered in limos are getting any benefit, and laughing at us at the same time.

Where are our Michael Collins', our Tom Clarkes and Sean McDermotts? Too busy playing the bloody Nintendo DS.

Anyone have any views?

RichardAnd

The majority of students that took to the streets of Dublin to protest about fees did so for a days "craic". I was in college at the time and I remember classes in DCU being almost empty because so many had gone to "protest" rather than show up for class.

Most students are concerned mostly with partying, drinking and having fun. The argument about fees was less about education and more, from their point of view, a direct threat to the 4 years of fun that college has become to so many people.
If you think a protest will change anything, at least look elsewhere than the symptom of our spoiled youth.

DrumSteve

Ah another one of these threads...

stand up for what? be like the greeks?

THE COUNTRY IS ****ED.

yeah the goverment is a shower of wasters but they were voted in by people who wanted the goodtimes to roll.

instead of bitching and moaning and rioting lets just get the heads down and sort this mess out the right way.

firstprime

the only way for change to happen is for everyone to stand up and demand it, but everyone just seem to prefer sitting around talking about it and not doing anything. with the way things are going to get better is if by luck somebody with new ideas whos not afraid to act, even if it means the old folks are going to get rowdy. this country is all talk and fear of action.

Nijmegen

I've said it before: I believe in Ireland taking its harsh medicine. But I do not see this going hand in hand with keeping the current lot in power.

Those at the helm at the time of our coming into trouble, those who steal from the citizens with their false expenses and so forth... They should be punished harshly.

When that's done, I'd be happy about taking what's coming.

danbohan

DrumSteve wrote: »

Ah another one of these threads...

stand up for what? be like the greeks?

THE COUNTRY IS ****ED.

yeah the goverment is a shower of wasters but they were voted in by people who wanted the goodtimes to roll.

instead of bitching and moaning and rioting lets just get the heads down and sort this mess out the right way.

instead of bitching and moaning and rioting lets just get the heads down and sort this mess out the right way.[/QUOTE]

do you mean like whats happening now ? because it certainly is not getting sorted , yes theirs bitching and moaning but thats it nothings happening, and the idiots that ran this country aground are still at the helm and will eventully sink it , and the spare crew ie fine gael/ labour are equally clueless if not worse . so burying heads in the sand and hoping it will all go away is not answer either . if i saw some evidence that somebody was trying to sort it out the right way i would be more than happy to agree with you, and if you think we are a great deal better off than the greeks i fail to see it, both places are ;;;;;;ed

DrumSteve

do you mean like whats happening now ? because it certainly is not getting sorted , yes theirs bitching and moaning but thats it nothings happening, and the idiots that ran this country aground are still at the helm and will eventully sink it , and the spare crew ie fine gael/ labour are equally clueless if not worse . so burying heads in the sand and hoping it will all go away is not answer either . if i saw some evidence that somebody was trying to sort it out the right way i would be more than happy to agree with you, and if you think we are a great deal better off than the greeks i fail to see it, both places are ;;;;;;ed

No I dont think were are better off than the Greeks but they bitched and moaned about it and look how they ended up.

our international appearance is important to this country. how we appear to them whether we like it or not affects how they treat us and right now we would be ****ed without them and their money. If we mess about we may aswell throw in the towel.

no its not an ideal situation; no one wants the people we have in charge: Cowen is an imbecile, Kenny I would trust to run a sweetshop and Gilmore is just Bertie as the real socialist he always claimed to be.

we have to rein in our spending becuse it cant go on like this. it doesn't require revolutions or protests. just people in this country taking responsibilty for themselves and their actions.

danbohan

DrumSteve wrote: »

No I dont think were are better off than the Greeks but they bitched and moaned about it and look how they ended up.

our international appearance is important to this country. how we appear to them whether we like it or not affects how they treat us and right now we would be ****ed without them and their money. If we mess about we may aswell throw in the towel.

no its not an ideal situation; no one wants the people we have in charge: Cowen is an imbecile, Kenny I would trust to run a sweetshop and Gilmore is just Bertie as the real socialist he always claimed to be.

we have to rein in our spending becuse it cant go on like this. it doesn't require revolutions or protests. just people in this country taking responsibilty for themselves and their actions.

yes i agree , unfortunaley the people in power wont take responsibilty unless to protect their ass , the masses are a pretty powerless bunch they whine and moan and ring joe thats it , loads will emigrate , the public sector will remain as it is ,innefficent +overpaid ,the unemployed have next to no incintive to take low paid work , to be honest without outside intervention and control i cannot see us getting out this mess because i dont think we are capable of doing what needs to be done .

MrDarcy

Nevie wrote: »

Hey guys.

I'm at my wits end here. I'm just wondering has the whole divide and conquer thing completely worked on us Irish. Why am i hearing more bank bail outs, when they wont help small businesses, are increasing interest rates, the government taking the P*#s out of us.

Im sure i don't need to start listing off all the things that are wrong with the country but is there anyone willing to stand up (including myself) and say enough is enough. The third level students decided only recently they were going to protest. I thought we could rely on the Students to have some impact but it seems they've no passion for the country either, and its taken them how long to get up off their arses, and only for their own cause.

Civil .v. Private, men .v. women national .v. non national. We're all being played off one another and only the men being chauffered in limos are getting any benefit, and laughing at us at the same time.

Where are our Michael Collins', our Tom Clarkes and Sean McDermotts? Too busy playing the bloody Nintendo DS.

Anyone have any views?

I don't feel like I'm being played off anyone at all to be honest. As an employer I feel like my taxes have been used to breastfeed and mollycoddle a load of people in the public sector who have no idea what hard work or hardship actually is. All those people who through no fault of their own have lost and are still losing jobs, small businesses, their houses, who have to emigrate, who are on the dole, it is a fact that is beyond any dispute that not a single one of those people, who collectively now number in the hundreds of thousands, not a single one of those people came from a public sector full time position or if they did it was because they chose to leave their position, which was and still is 100% guaranteed by the state.

We need a TV documentary along the lines of Wifeswop, where instead of taking two wives and swop them, we take a public sector worker and put them into a private sector, NON UNIONISED job position and see how they cope HAVING to take pay cuts and at the same time work more hours and cover more responsibilities, not to make the boss rich but just to keep the door of the business open.

I don't mean to knock people like nurses and SOME Gardai who I think are worth their weight in gold, but this notion of jobs for life, tax free lump sums on retirement that make a night on Winning Streak look like something that you'd find at the bottom of your Trocaire Box, automatic pay increments that are entirely unrelated to performance on the job, group decisions made about phones not being answered, passports not being processed and lightbulbs not being changed, reisistance to change, it does my f*cking head in because I'm paying for all of this and at the same time, where is my Croke Park deal??? Where are my assurances??? Where is my gold plated tax free lump sum on retirement ON TOP OF a very respectable index linked pension entitlement??? I chose self employment, I don't expect any assurances, even though I and people like me are the one's who are taking all of the risks and all I hear from lazy and intransignent public sector unions is that I have this big stash of gold under my matress somewhere that can be raided to pay for their members being retained in jobs when the public sector is at least 60K overstaffed and have the highest paid public sector workers in the world?!?!?!?

It isn't the government who is pitching me against anyone or anyone against me and there is no strategy to pitch people against each other, there is a public sector union hierarchy that is entirely removed from the reality of the very very serious situation we are now in and I'll be fu*cked if they think they are getting another red cent out of me, the same pr*cks on 100K-200K a year and have the neck to tell me that I'll have to pay more to keep more of their members in jobs that are completely surplus to requirements.

MrDarcy

Nijmegen wrote: »

I've said it before: I believe in Ireland taking its harsh medicine. But I do not see this going hand in hand with keeping the current lot in power.

Those at the helm at the time of our coming into trouble, those who steal from the citizens with their false expenses and so forth... They should be punished harshly.

When that's done, I'd be happy about taking what's coming.

Harsh medicine?!?!?!?!? If I have a business with 30 people working in it, and my accountant comes into me one day and says that I'm taking in 1 million a year in revenue but spending 2 million a year running the business and that I need to reduce overheads rapidly to stay at the races, it isn't open to me to say, "here, see those 3 people in the IT Department, relocate them onto the sales team, and those 7 people on the warehouse floor, move them into purchasing, and those 4 lads out on the road, stick them in the back office there with the girls in credit control"...

This is what the Croke Park Deal does, it doesn't provide for a single reduction in overheads, all it does is move people around the place, it's absolute insanity. This would be fine if there were not approximately 60,000 more people than are required in the public sector.

Misty Chaos

The problem I can see with all this is that a lot of our youth ( myself included ) are completely jaded and disillusioned by the political system of this country. I'm not just talking about FF here, I'm on about ALL the political parties.

FF needs no introduction, the Greens want to tax us to death to save mother earth, FG can't see beyond their noses ( when they left Enda Kenny stay on as leader when he clearly should have went sealed that for me ) and Labour would only ponder to the trade unions and make things worse.

Now please tell me, why should young people care? Its not like they are being listened to anyway. They are always much further down the list almost where they are not seen or heard.

As for the Irish not standing up. Ugh, I admit it annoys me as well but at the same time, we're not willing to upset our nice, comfortable and safe lives for anything and I mean anything. An uprising would be an absolute last resort and even then, we'd still be reluctant to do it.

Another reason could be best summed up by this:

amusing.png (784 KB)

Nolanger

Nevie wrote: »

. Where are our Michael Collins', our Tom Clarkes and Sean McDermotts?

They've all emigrated.

dan_d

I'm sorry, but I'm with Nevie.

2 years ago, everyone said FF would be gone by Christmas. They'd HAVE to call an election. They're still there. They've taken a couple of difficult decisions. They have not actually made any hard decisions.

Now we're saying punish them at the ballot box. The ballot box won't be for another 2 years or so. People....look at the amount of damage they have done in the last 2 years alone and imagine what they can do in the next 2 years. More importantly, look at the what they've IGNORED in the last 2 years, and imagine what they can ignore in the next 2 years. And we just keep on taking the hits.

Roddy Malloy - acres of columns space. No sound from anyone. FAS - acres of column space - forgotten now. Sean Fitzpatrick - acres of column space - now used a kind of a "joke" when out on a night out. Anglo bailouts getting bigger and bigger - acres of column space - a bit of whinging from Irish people. Flooding due to obviously bad planning decisions, Ivor Calelly et al and their expenses, mortgage rate increases from banks we're bailing out, no paycuts for Gov ministers, Mary Harney and her haircuts, pensions payoffs for Micheal Fingleton and his pals, developers swanning in and out of the country, transferring assets to their spouses to avoid being made responsible for what they've done, Quinn Insurance, Quinn Insurance and their dealings with Anglo, jobs being lost by the hundreds every other week and finally, our young people leaving the country that their parents and elder siblings have destroyed ,in droves and we're trying to figure out why.

For the love of God, look at that list. And that's only in the last year and a half. What's it going to take? Each individual item comes, week after week, and we sit around and discuss it to death, we moan and whinge and complain about the poor ordinary people of Ireland...and that's it. Next item please. Now look at that list as a whole. All those things together. They add up to something being seriously rotten in this country. And we don't do anything, because we've got a bunch of reasons that, 18 months ago might have been understandable, or acceptable, but now...they're just not. We might have the Gov we deserve, we might feel there's no other alternatives, but we have to do something. Sitting around doing nothing is obviously not working.

We don't go out and protest that we want jobs. Or payrises. Or heads to roll. We go out and protest about all of the above. That we are not happy with how this country is being run, that there is no accountability, that no effort is being put into creating jobs, that no effort is being put into anything except covering up expenses claims, that the welfare of the people of Ireland is the last thing on the Gov list, and that we want and need a new system. How can the young people of Ireland have any interest in politics, when they look at the older generations and simply see complete apathy and "ah sure, the other crowd will be no better" or "ah sure, we'll just keep going and everything will work itself out"? They look around, see a complete shambles compared to the other countries they've visited (and have no doubt that they have), see that everyone has absolutely no interest in making anything work around here, and they decide - why should we be bothered?

I am not a fan of this country's history, and my knowledge of it is not in-depth, but I know that the Wolfe Tone's and the Padraig Pearses and the James Connollys didn't single-handedly change much, and in some cases, didn't change anything during their lives. But their actions spoke louder than their words and acted as a catalyst for things to change. And personally, I think we've had more than enough words, and it's time for some action.Failing that, we should all just shut up and put up, because we'll have got exactly what we deserve.

hiorta

It is far easier to stand against an oppressing foreign power than it is to combat voluntary fiscal lunacy.

bamboozle

dan_d wrote: »

I'm sorry, but I'm with Nevie.

2 years ago, everyone said FF would be gone by Christmas. They'd HAVE to call an election. They're still there. They've taken a couple of difficult decisions. They have not actually made any hard decisions.

Now we're saying punish them at the ballot box. The ballot box won't be for another 2 years or so. People....look at the amount of damage they have done in the last 2 years alone and imagine what they can do in the next 2 years. More importantly, look at the what they've IGNORED in the last 2 years, and imagine what they can ignore in the next 2 years. And we just keep on taking the hits.

Roddy Malloy - acres of columns space. No sound from anyone. FAS - acres of column space - forgotten now. Sean Fitzpatrick - acres of column space - now used a kind of a "joke" when out on a night out. Anglo bailouts getting bigger and bigger - acres of column space - a bit of whinging from Irish people. Flooding due to obviously bad planning decisions, Ivor Calelly et al and their expenses, mortgage rate increases from banks we're bailing out, no paycuts for Gov ministers, Mary Harney and her haircuts, pensions payoffs for Micheal Fingleton and his pals, developers swanning in and out of the country, transferring assets to their spouses to avoid being made responsible for what they've done, Quinn Insurance, Quinn Insurance and their dealings with Anglo, jobs being lost by the hundreds every other week and finally, our young people leaving the country that their parents and elder siblings have destroyed ,in droves and we're trying to figure out why.

For the love of God, look at that list. And that's only in the last year and a half. What's it going to take? Each individual item comes, week after week, and we sit around and discuss it to death, we moan and whinge and complain about the poor ordinary people of Ireland...and that's it. Next item please. Now look at that list as a whole. All those things together. They add up to something being seriously rotten in this country. And we don't do anything, because we've got a bunch of reasons that, 18 months ago might have been understandable, or acceptable, but now...they're just not. We might have the Gov we deserve, we might feel there's no other alternatives, but we have to do something. Sitting around doing nothing is obviously not working.

We don't go out and protest that we want jobs. Or payrises. Or heads to roll. We go out and protest about all of the above. That we are not happy with how this country is being run, that there is no accountability, that no effort is being put into creating jobs, that no effort is being put into anything except covering up expenses claims, that the welfare of the people of Ireland is the last thing on the Gov list, and that we want and need a new system. How can the young people of Ireland have any interest in politics, when they look at the older generations and simply see complete apathy and "ah sure, the other crowd will be no better" or "ah sure, we'll just keep going and everything will work itself out"? They look around, see a complete shambles compared to the other countries they've visited (and have no doubt that they have), see that everyone has absolutely no interest in making anything work around here, and they decide - why should we be bothered?

I am not a fan of this country's history, and my knowledge of it is not in-depth, but I know that the Wolfe Tone's and the Padraig Pearses and the James Connollys didn't single-handedly change much, and in some cases, didn't change anything during their lives. But their actions spoke louder than their words and acted as a catalyst for things to change. And personally, I think we've had more than enough words, and it's time for some action.Failing that, we should all just shut up and put up, because we'll have got exactly what we deserve.

great post, i can see the day my grand children will ask me why the people of Iceland and other countries went out and protested until their govts failed/resigned yet us in Ireland b1tched and moaned to each other yet did nothing while people like Seanie, Finger, Neary, Molloy, Bertie, Callely et al swanned around living off huge penions and state salaries.

what can we do about it? email/write/phone politicians, let them know how you feel, get registered to vote and vote at every opportunity.

there's something strange in our mentality tho, at the last local elections i expected former employees or shop stewards from Waterford Crystal in Waterford or Dell in Limerick or of any of the areas devestated by large scale redundancies to run for local elections cause they had a legitimate platform to run on, but we didnt see any of this.
i hope in the next general elections we'll see people who have suffered unemployment to run & get elected to dail eireann where they can drive the reform that is necessary.

Drumpot

Maybe when as a nation we grow up and take responsibility for our own actions, for our part in this crisis, we will feel justified in moving forward with change . .

Deep down, whether you look at the current government or the opposition during the boom (who's promises at elections did not suggest they would do things too differantly or better), people know they have screwed themselves. We voted in these people and gave them a moral mandate to fk up everything . .We loved the lower taxes, we loved to spend (except for the few PC warriors on boards that love to look down on everybody as if they are gods greatest gift!) and we loved the good times . .

Everybody can quote the odd economist or quote from somewhere that "obviously" should of been listened to (talk about clutching at straws!). Everyboyd slags FF but forgets they arent some king or dictator, they are democratically elected . . Same for the lame opposition we have had and continue to have. .

Marches do serve a purpose, but I dont want any of these things to happen before a majority (electorate) of the people in this country accept their role in this mess. We have the Pensioners demanding money "they are entitled to". No differant to politicians in my view. . They voted in the current crowd while they were getting medical cards and very nice rises in state pension . . My son will be paying for that, what is he "entitled to"? Theres a march that is based on the perception of the public service and the politician principle of "entitlement".Another thing that needs to change if we want our country to progress.

Another problem isnt simply voting in FF (that some people make out), its voting in politicians with few morals or principles. In fairness there are decent hard working ones out there, but as a society we have to make these traits important in how we vote. You have two people at your door. One says they will fix the potholes and green in your area, the other says that times are tough and serious cutbacks will have to be made for the long term stability of the country . . Who will most people vote for ?

When the Greeks said "we are not Ireland", I couldnt of been more happy. . The more distance between ourselves and those extremely poorly educated greedy Greeks, the better . .

If we want true change we need to grow up and make it happen for us . . Not just vote in FG/labour and think thats the job done ! ! I would vote FF in the next election if I felt my local FF TD was going to share my principles in politics and make hard decisions for the right reasons. . People need to stop thinking that a vote for anybody but FF means progressive positive change for this country . . All it guarantees is that many people will feel that they made a point to FF, which solves nothing other then their lust for blood. .

dan_d

While I absolutely agree with you Drumpot, it seems to me that it's a bit of a vicious circle.

We do need to grow up, so badly. But I think part of the growing up needs to be the realisation that it's just not good enough to sit back and take this crap. And this is part of the reason why I'm saying that we don't march for pay increases, or our money back or whatever other selfish reasons people have. We march for a change, a new system, new ways of Government and overall, the idea that we are not happy with the behaviour of our politicians.

As you say, getting people to agree with that is the problem. Were all for things to be improved in the economy, but for that to happen, a lot of cuts have to be made. And the instant that's said, people don't want to know. I've said it before "not in my back yard".

It's deeply frustrating to those of us who do see that something needs to be done, and that we do need to get out on the streets and make it damn clear to our politicians that what is happening is not acceptable - and not because we have to take pay cuts or pay levies, but because what they are doing and not doing is just not good enough and does not have the interests of the country as a whole at heart.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

hinault

Yes, people should have been complaining when house prices started to rocket in this country.
People should have been complaining when mortgages were being given out like confetti at a wedding.
People should have been complaining when handbag prices were €1k a pop.

A minority did complain that this was unsustainable.
But they were told to go hang themselves.

Now we have everyone complaining now that the economic mirage has disappeared.


My concern going forward is that we do not have the leadership in this country to sort out our own homegrown economic implosion.
Our political leadership got it wrong in the boom times, and so far there is nothing to suggest that they're doing the right thing today either.
NAMA is now a very expensive joke.
Our banks are still not lending money two years in to this crisis.
Jobs are being lost by the bucketload.
Those that are in jobs are working reduced hours.
It is the perfect economic storm.

We deserve better than this.

Count Dooku

hinault wrote: »

We deserve better than this.

“Every country has the government it deserves.”
Joseph Marie de Maistre

maninasia

Misty Choas wrote: »

The problem I can see with all this is that a lot of our youth ( myself included ) are completely jaded and disillusioned by the political system of this country. I'm not just talking about FF here, I'm on about ALL the political parties.

FF needs no introduction, the Greens want to tax us to death to save mother earth, FG can't see beyond their noses ( when they left Enda Kenny stay on as leader when he clearly should have went sealed that for me ) and Labour would only ponder to the trade unions and make things worse.

Now please tell me, why should young people care? Its not like they are being listened to anyway. They are always much further down the list almost where they are not seen or heard.

As for the Irish not standing up. Ugh, I admit it annoys me as well but at the same time, we're not willing to upset our nice, comfortable and safe lives for anything and I mean anything. An uprising would be an absolute last resort and even then, we'd still be reluctant to do it.

Another reason could be best summed up by this:

amusing.png (784 KB)

You should care because you still live there and it's your future! I care and I don't even live there anymore. (EDIT- I guess you do care but youth in general are more interested in the latest iPhone launch).

djpbarry

Nevie wrote: »

...increasing interest rates, the government taking the P*#s out of us.

The government (thankfully) don’t control interest rates.

Nevie wrote: »

The third level students decided only recently they were going to protest. I thought we could rely on the Students to have some impact but it seems they've no passion for the country either, and its taken them how long to get up off their arses, and only for their own cause.

Is this the USI protest in Cork you are referring to? Organised by graduates who can’t get jobs in their desired professions? Jaysus love them.

Nevie wrote: »

Where are our Michael Collins', our Tom Clarkes and Sean McDermotts?

Plenty of people up north who are prepared to murder to further their political ambitions.

djpbarry

dan_d wrote: »

Now we're saying punish them at the ballot box. The ballot box won't be for another 2 years or so. People....look at the amount of damage they have done in the last 2 years alone and imagine what they can do in the next 2 years. More importantly, look at the what they've IGNORED in the last 2 years, and imagine what they can ignore in the next 2 years. And we just keep on taking the hits.

And this surprises you because? As I recently stated on another thread, Ireland has been a basket case for most of its short history and more often than not, Fianna Fáil have been in power. Go figure.

Nevie

DrumSteve wrote: »

Ah another one of these threads...

stand up for what? be like the greeks?

THE COUNTRY IS ****ED.

yeah the goverment is a shower of wasters but they were voted in by people who wanted the goodtimes to roll.

instead of bitching and moaning and rioting lets just get the heads down and sort this mess out the right way.

I don't believe we voted these people in. To vote for someone you must be given all the facts, you must know the truth. When falsities are presented then you are not making an informed decision. I believe that our society has been fueled very cleverly by the elite. They gave us mortgages, for big houses, and cars and holiday, because our parents never had it. We have been fooled into thinking we live a free country.....

djpbarry wrote: »

The government (thankfully) don’t control interest rates.
Is this the USI protest in Cork you are referring to? Organised by graduates who can’t get jobs in their desired professions? Jaysus love them.
Plenty of people up north who are prepared to murder to further their political ambitions.

No, our government doesn't control interest rates, so who does? And why would they increase them at a time that no one has an arse to there trousers? Why, when they were negligent in their offering of loans, is it the joe soap that is being hung drawn and quartered, while BILLIONs are being wiped clean for the boys who can afford it most?

Why are we pandering to a Union, that will not accept an answer from us unless it is the correct one (in their eyes). I believe we finally stood up to the cronies with the Lisbon Treaty but the sh*t was frightened out of us if we didn't vote properly. And the Irish took it hook, line and sinker. Where are those jobs now? Did they prevent Dell from running to a third world like country and paying SFA to their employees? They move the wealth around the Union causing financial devastation to the natives all the while raking in the profits.

Our electricity rates are set by a government body who saw the majority of its customer scarper when the market was opened up, because they were a rip off, and now because they've lost so much money they're getting the dig in at everyone by increasing the price of our most basic need. But then again we have been fooled into hand over our gas, our fishing our agriculture, our culture our sovereignty either that or it was whittled away with regulations and directives.

So what option does putting the head down and sorting this mess out properly mean? Does it mean shutting our mouths and accepting all the radical cuts? Does it mean letting those who have clearly f*%cked up continue, just so we can look good on international markets? We've been fooled into thinking we need a global market when all that has done is increase poverty across the world? Does it mean burning grain to keep food prices high, while whole continents starve, because like Ireland, their natural resources have been snapped away by multi national corporations? Pandering to the disgraceful behavior of the US under the guise of FREEDOM & LIBERTY, because if we upset the US, who will fill our industrial estates?

Plenty of people up north who are prepared to murder to further their political ambitions... There are plenty of people everywhere willing to murder for their political ambitions! But also for financial and personal ambitions! We don't have to look far to see that. I don't condone violence, but TBH its clear that none of these elite assholes ever got a good hiddin! They're all patting each others backs in the private schools, invoking their nepotism rights and never had to break their B*lls for anything. Why or how would our leaders be able to associate with our needs??????

We DO need a revolution. The whole world needs a revolution. I'm off to find a good high Tree to hug