sale of cigs n booze

Dues Bellator

can somebody tell me why its cool to sell booze n cigs legally when clearly they kill you.

• Taxes
• Affording people the discretion to do what they want once they are aware of the consequences

Teferi

Alcohol doesn't clearly kill you. Abuse of alcohol kills you. In that case, should we tax peoples self control?

Studies show that small amounts of alcohol have benefits in both men and women. Wine can help with circulation among other things while lager can help fight alzheimers for example.

Edit: And it isn't "cool" to sell booze. :rolleyes:

Eliot Rosewater

Many things can kill you. If you drink enough water it will rinse all the salts out of your body and kill you, apparently. And obviously fast food will kill you. In fact, too much of any food will.

The point is that individuals should have enough responsibility to deal with these risks. If we are to take the nanny state to it's logical conclusion from what's outlined here, every pleasure in this world would be banned because some people take it too far. I personally like smoking a cigar or cigarillo every now and then and I'd be quite annoyed if that pleasure was stripped from me because the government feels that regular smokers need to be protected from themselves.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

mohawk

Alcohol abuse will kill you. A nice glass of red wine isn't going to kill you.

Cannibis, cocaine, heroin etc are illegal. Guess what you can still buy them. Some people want what they cant have and others are self destructive. You can only go so far with legislation to stop people hurting themselves. Speeding is illegal and yet some people still do it making things illegal doesn't stop the problem.

At least we get the tax intake from the legal sale of cigs and booze.

The first rule of my toxicolgy lectures in college was everything is toxic at the right dose.

mohawk

donegalfella wrote: »

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+1
OP have you not noticed the gang problems in limerick and dublin. they dont shoot each other for the craic its all about money, drugs and turf. You ban alcohol and cigs you can bet crime in this country would get far worse.

Badly made alcohol can contain alot of methanol which will kill you or if your lucky leave you blind.

Denerick

almanu wrote: »

can somebody tell me why its cool to sell booze n cigs legally when clearly they kill you.

Following this logic through we'd have to ban the following:

• Cars
• Aerosols
• Soap
• Donkeys
• Glue
• Knives
• Baseball bats
• Bleach
• Electricity

sceptre

mohawk wrote: »

The first rule of my toxicolgy lectures in college was everything is toxic at the right dose.

Indeed. Like water. Especially pure water.

Well, considering the taxes on tobacco and alcohol, banning of such would mean a rather heavy attack on the governments revenue. I can remember when a packet of 10 cigs would cost the equivalent of €2. What are they now? Oh, you can't get 10's anymore only 20's and they cost roughly €9... So, if you're going to smoke, you must buy more, at increasingly higher prices. What does that tell you?

For all this talk about health, there are plenty of people out there seeking to make money off others. Tobacco is just another way to do this.

Was nice being able to buy cigs for a fairly reasonable price in France last month.

Fuinseog

almanu wrote: »

can somebody tell me why its cool to sell booze n cigs legally when clearly they kill you.

so does junk food

T runner

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Many thousands of alcohol related deaths in Ireland every year. Would there be many thousand deaths due to criminality if alcohol was banned. No. Banning alcohol would save lives, many thousands of lives.

T runner

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Many things can kill you. If you drink enough water it will rinse all the salts out of your body and kill you, apparently. And obviously fast food will kill you. In fact, too much of any food will.

The point is that individuals should have enough responsibility to deal with these risks. If we are to take the nanny state to it's logical conclusion from what's outlined here, every pleasure in this world would be banned because some people take it too far. I personally like smoking a cigar or cigarillo every now and then and I'd be quite annoyed if that pleasure was stripped from me because the government feels that regular smokers need to be protected from themselves.

Amazing that despite all the deaths directly related to alcohol, all the murders, manslaughters by people under the influence the fact that a high proportion of road deaths are alcohol related, the scourge of alcohol consumption in families in Ireland etc... that people still delude themselves that alcohol is drunk in moderation in this country.

The fact that many young Irish people believe that the phrase "going out" must include getting drunk tells us that alcohol abuse is a societal problem here and not just a problem for the few who cant control themselves.

Victor

10 packs of cigarettes were aimed at children to get them addicted. Hence they were banned.

Denerick wrote: »

Following this logic through we'd have to ban the following:

• Cars
• Aerosols
• Soap
• Donkeys
• Glue
• Knives
• Baseball bats
• Bleach
• Electricity

All of those have perfectly good uses. Its difficult to compare them to addictive, mind altering substances that cause severe health problems.

Society takes the view that so few people are killed by donkeys, compared to the benefits they give, that they acceptable to have. Meanwhile, cars, aerosols, glue and knives have various levels of regulation. Soap is subjected to quality standards and no doubt there are lists of what you can or can't have in it and working with electric wiring or manufacture of equipment is controlled at various levels.

Heroin has few benefits, although some associated drugs like morphine are important in regulated situations.

The problem with alcohol and tobacco is that they were historically acceptable and moving a population en masse from use to non-use is probably impractical.

strobe

T runner wrote: »

Many thousands of alcohol related deaths in Ireland every year. Would there be many thousand deaths due to criminality if alcohol was banned. No. Banning alcohol would save lives, many thousands of lives.

Many thousands of alcohol related deaths would still occur in Ireland every year if it was banned tomorow. Only now the alcohol being sold would be even more dangerous. {see gut-rot/moonshine/ poitin}. Whatever small insignificant hope the Gardai have of reducing the supply of cocaine, for instance into the country. They would not even have that miniscule success trying to control the supply of alcohol. Sugar, yeast and water are all you need to make alcohol. Although they are not the only things you can use. Do you suggest the gardai could remove all bread and fruit from the country? Banning alcohol would not save one single life and would more than likely cost far more than it currently does.

Victor wrote: »

10 packs of cigarettes were aimed at children to get them addicted. Hence they were banned.

That was the line people were fed, yes. And dear me didn't they just eat it up. I started smoking far too young. I never remember having the money for a whole 10 pack to myself, so two or three of use would go in on it together. If only twenty packs were available 4 or 5 of us would have went in on that together. Or two or three of us would have bought twenty half as frequently as we bought ten. Makes no difference whatsoever.

bigbadbear

driving a car kills us too.
drink is enjoyable.
smoking is not and should be de branded.

people should not be told what they can and cannot do if it has no affect on others

bigbadbear

bigbadbear wrote: »

drink is enjoyable.
smoking is not and should be de branded.

Whereas I don't particularly enjoy drinking, and enjoy smoking a lot more. Sure, I dont enjoy every cig I smoke, but I do enjoy the majority.

people should not be told what they can and cannot do if it has no affect on others

My smoking doesn't affect anyone else, except perhaps the odd bit of smoke that hits people as I pass by. But growing up in a non-smoking family, I know the opinions of many non-smokers, and take it into account when smoking. Then again, I don't care about the non-smokers who huddle into the smoking area's of pubs or such.. they've chosen to place themselves in a smoking environment.

strobe wrote: »

Many thousands of alcohol related deaths would still occur in Ireland every year if it was banned tomorow. Only now the alcohol being sold would be even more dangerous. {see gut-rot/moonshine/ poitin}. Whatever small insignificant hope the Gardai have of reducing the supply of cocaine, for instance into the country. They would not even have that miniscule success trying to control the supply of alcohol. Sugar, yeast and water are all you need to make alcohol. Although they are not the only things you can use. Do you suggest the gardai could remove all bread and fruit from the country? Banning alcohol would not save one single life and would more than likely cost far more than it currently does.

Have you ever tasted poitin, or any of the home-brewed spirits? Its only the already mad or desperate that drink that crap. It wouldn't be the case that there would be a sudden rise. Instead you would have people making their own cider, wine or beer at home. Which many are already doing due to the rising costs involved with drinking in this country.

Banning alcohol is unlikely for the same reason that banning tobacco is unlikely. The government makes too much money from it. For all the laws regulating where people can smoke, no country has banned it completely for sale & consumption. It would be the same with Alcohol in this country.

But more regulations could easily be put in place regarding the content of drinks and the manner they're allowed to be mixed.

Victor wrote: »

10 packs of cigarettes were aimed at children to get them addicted. Hence they were banned.

Maybe so, but there were quite a few smokers who liked buying packets of 10 instead of 20 since it allowed us to reduce the amount smoked. If you have cigs on hand, they'll be smoked. A packet of 10 gave a better chance to regulate our own smoking habits.

All of those have perfectly good uses. Its difficult to compare them to addictive, mind altering substances that cause severe health problems.

This is nicotine not cannabis. I've been smoking over 20 years now, and have never felt any mind altering experience with nicotine compared with 6 years of cannabis which most definitely did have those properties.

And as for health problems, we end up paying for them ourselves. Both from a personal and financial pov. For all the talk about the state having to shoulder the cost of a smokers health problems, we 1) pay a huge amount of taxes over our lifetime to offset the costs involved, and 2) are more likely to need private health insurance to ensure we get treated when we need it. (Since the public coverage is awful, and likely to get worse)

bigbadbear

Deleted User wrote: »

Whereas I don't particularly enjoy drinking, and enjoy smoking a lot more. Sure, I dont enjoy every cig I smoke, but I do enjoy the majority.

Ahahaahahahahahaahahahahahhahahah That's what you think :pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::D:D:D:D

Im an ex smoker and can tell you that it is a totally false enjoyment. akin to wearing a pair of very tight, uncomfortable shoes for the 'enjoyment' of taking them off.

Anyway, the anti smoking snobs will tell you that you ARE affecting them by being in hospital all the time when you get a bit older but I dont think anyone should ever be told how to live their life at all. thats why the smoking ban came in because it did affect them but you should be allowed smoke your life to happiness if you so choose

bigbadbear

bigbadbear wrote: »

Ahahaahahahahahaahahahahahhahahah That's what you think :pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::D:D:D:D

Actually, yes, that is what I think. Or rather what I know.

Im an ex smoker and can tell you that it is a totally false enjoyment. akin to wearing a pair of very tight, uncomfortable shoes for the 'enjoyment' of taking them off.

Ahh another ex smoker that knows what every smoker is feeling about their habit. It's funny really how this happens with people who give up something. :rolleyes:

Anyway, the anti smoking snobs will tell you that you ARE affecting them by being in hospital all the time when you get a bit older

Its interesting how these anti smoking snobs will never acknowledge that smokers pay enormous taxes on every box of cig that they buy which goes directly into the governments pocket. Its also interesting how little the public health service can actually provide people with care considering how stretched they are in just about every area. If I was sick (smoking related or otherwise), needed care, I would be obliged to get private health insurance to cover most of my costs, which I'd have to pay a premium again for being a smoker. [IF anything non-smokers are already receiving the benefits of smokers habits in the form of revenue which is being spent to better their lives]

A few months back, I was in hospital due to a fall, where i injured my legs and the side of my back. I was seen by the doctors, told to stay in hospital for a week for treatment & observation, and was discharged two days later because they needed the beds for other priorities. I needed to contact my private insurer and get a private room to cover the remaining period. And that just gave me the right to the room, since I still had to foot the bill in any case.

but I dont think anyone should ever be told how to live their life at all. thats why the smoking ban came in because it did affect them but you should be allowed smoke your life to happiness if you so choose

And I supported the smoking ban as did so many smokers out there. At the time of the ban being proposed there wasn't an overwhelming majority of non-smokers in this country. The ban gained support from plenty of smokers too, since we were aware of the problem (and sympathized) for non-smokers.

bigbadbear

Deleted User wrote: »

Actually, yes, that is what I think. Or rather what I know.

Ahh another ex smoker that knows what every smoker is feeling about their habit. It's funny really how this happens with people who give up something. :rolleyes:

That was my evil laugh earlier BTW. There is nothing worse than somebody giving up and then being a bloody snob about it.

I read "The book" to give up and now it's a little bit saddening when I see people I care about not reading it. Can you imagine just how frustrating it is to know what is in that book and to know how easy it can be to give up and there are still people who haven't read it and wont read it out of fear of what might happen at the end??

bigbadbear

bigbadbear wrote: »

That was my evil laugh earlier BTW. There is nothing worse than somebody giving up and then being a bloody snob about it.

I read "The book" to give up and now it's a little bit saddening when I see people I care about not reading it. Can you imagine just how frustrating it is to know what is in that book and to know how easy it can be to give up and there are still people who haven't read it and wont read it out of fear of what might happen at the end??

The Book? I've done the Allen Carr book which worked for me... then I went back for my own reasons. Then I did some self-hypnosis routines a few years later, and they also worked along with the normal willpower. Now, I can't be bothered messing about with my habit beyond regulating the number I smoke in a day. Ultimately the best way to stop is to actually want to stop. For yourself. Not because someone is guilt-ing you into it.

As for the frustration angle every time I see my close friends (we're all in our low-mid 30's) get hammered drunk and get into trouble I probably feel something similar.

bigbadbear

Deleted User wrote: »

The Book? I've done the Allen Carr book which worked for me... then I went back for my own reasons. Then I did some self-hypnosis routines a few years later, and they also worked along with the normal willpower. Now, I can't be bothered messing about with my habit beyond regulating the number I smoke in a day. Ultimately the best way to stop is to actually want to stop. For yourself. Not because someone is guilt-ing you into it.

As for the frustration angle every time I see my close friends (we're all in our low-mid 30's) get hammered drunk and get into trouble I probably feel something similar.

Your friends should not drink.

one of my mates who i was away with last week in no craic when hes drinking. i keep trying to hint that he should stop. the irony is hes a borderline alcoholic. I personally love drink and it only makes me and my other mates funnier and more light hearted. none of this acting like a lunatic cause your locked stuff

bigbadbear

bigbadbear wrote: »

Your friends should not drink.

Which describes the about 50%-60% of all Irish people I have ever met. I have nothing against a few beers or such, but it's ironic that a country with such a reputation for drinking, the people have such a bad reaction (violence, stupidity, depression etc) to the stuff.

jamimon

bigbadbear wrote: »

driving a car kills us too.
drink is enjoyable.
smoking is not and should be de branded.

Base on your personal opinion. I however don't find any of those enjoyable. However, here in Ireland..... give them more I say.

bigbadbear wrote: »

people should not be told what they can and cannot do if it has no affect on others

Agree, but its inevitable.

almanu wrote: »

can somebody tell me why its cool to sell booze n cigs legally when clearly they kill you.

First in my mind: "irony"

deisedave

donegalfella wrote: »

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While that is true same argument could be make for weed which is illegal, So while I understand your view of things and think your right, Its still not really a legitimate reason while weed is still illegal. Considering weed to consume is safter than alcohol.

deisedave

deisedave wrote: »

Considering weed to consume is safter than alcohol.

That's very debatable considering both the enhancement of previous disorders, and other effects such as a memory loss.

CorkMan

IMO Cannabis should be legalised. Alcohol is grand but cigarettes are not IMO, pity they "got in". I mean I have no problem with people smoking, but you can go without drinking for the weekdays and drink at the weekend, but with cigarettes the vast majority of people need them everyday.

I have rarely seen an occasional smoker.

Pace2008

CorkMan wrote: »

Alcohol is grand but cigarettes are not IMO, pity they "got in".

"Grand?" Have a look at this report, the second table on page 31 in particular. It makes for sobering reading. Cigarettes are hyper-addictive, and undeniably detrimental to one's health, but they do not have the propensity of alcohol to obliterate one's sense of judgment and cause extreme behavioral problems, like those listed in the table I've linked.

Alcohol and cigarettes are legal, and will continue to be so, because they are now an integral part of society, used by the vast majority and a very significant minority of the population respectively, and because they are enjoyed by many of the people responsible for legislation in this country - simple as. It would take a complete shift in the social paradigm for this to change and I just can't ever see it happening.