I found a topic which was locked, I'd like to discuss it

Morphie

The topic was named: "Why in Ireland is being pro- multi-culturalism seen as '
odd"

OP: Just curious. I mean I honestly feel diversity is a good thing, thats just how I feel, but some people when you say you like it, mention the 'mess france or england is in' and look at you if you are insane.

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A little bit about myself. I'm 22 years old and move to Ireland around 4 months ago with my partner. Before I moved here I lived in England, in a very multi-cultural part of England. Anyway, I've received no help from the state, I was pretty much told to go back to England by the welfare officer. My stay here is only possible since an English couple have allowed us to live in their caravan whilst we sort ourselves out. And I tell you, the way the officer made me feel about being here was rotten, but it is such a beautiful country and I wanted to stay.

It's an interesting topic for me because I noticed the lack of ethic diversity not so long after I got here, it got to the point when I worded to my partner "Imagine moving here if you weren't white?". I mean, I feel a bit uneasy because I'm English, and I'm glad the only thing that gives that away is my accent. Though my perception of the Irish thus far has been rather nice, except my first landlord turned out to be really unhelpful.

Before I moved here, I didn't hear about the "potato famine" and according to one of the English people I met here, the Irish will "not let you forget about it". Is this true? How do the Irish generally view English people, more so English people who choose to move here? Will I be judged based on the land that I was born on? Or will I be viewed as I view everyone else? As another person.

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My views on multi-cultural living.

It's a nice idea, if you were to say you were against it in England (outside of close family and friends) then you'd probably be looked at with disgust, which is a vast contrast to what the OP of the other thread said.

Having lived within a multi-cultural society, my views on it are that at the moment, it isn't as "prefect" as people might like to think or imagine it is. For it to work you need the majority of people who won't see colours and associate themselves with those colours. My year at university I saw different groups of people separate themselves and I don't think it's coincidental that they shared the same ethic backgrounds.

I myself have friends of all backgrounds, I do like it that way, but never will you feel as though everyone is equal, there will be those who view and label you based on what colour you happen to be. I know this to be true in England, and it wouldn't be any different if Ireland became multi-cultural, it would be just the same. It's is so subtle you won't even realise it exists most of the time.

One story from England that I have, I won't forget it. 11 guys hanging out at school (I was included) all were good friends. Some went to college, most stayed on at sixth form. One of the guys was Asian, his birthday party was coming up and he invited everyone except the one white guy, simply because he was white.

I know this to be true because it was told to my Asian friend, who just happened to be one of the guys I stayed in close contact with since I left school. It was silly things like that which make you aware that the barriers you believe aren't there, really are there. It is a shame that some people can't see past it. But those who can are great, two of my best mates aren't white. The barrier isn't there for me but my view of England is that it's full of people who tolerate, as oppose to accept each other fully. Is it ever going to be perfect? I can't see it, though hopefully the moral zeitgeist will shift and will correct our awkward mindedness.

I enjoy the fact that isn't not something I'll be judged by when in Ireland, though hopefully people aren't so backward as to judge me being British.

All I can say to those who may dislike me based on my nationality is this:

No, I wasn't alive, nor did I have anything to do with anything that has happened to Ireland.

A lot of text with only a few questions. Not sure how willing people are to discuss this. The topic has been touched, but it was closed so I was forced to start it again with my added personal experience. I hope this isn't a problem.

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Ireland isn't so different from England, it has far fewer people, different currency, different sports, but largely not a massive culture shock.

I think it would be easy for people to say they'd welcome the idea of Ireland becoming multi-cultural, far more easy then to say it wouldn't be.

I believe humans tend to stick and huddle around that which is familiar. Like my staying in Ireland now, 3 different English couples, who live near each other after having moved here from England.

It was an odd feeling meeting the English people here, never before had I felt like a minority, an odd feeling of belonging, but only due to how much in common we had, and the familiarity of being English. I believe it's the same sort of feeling people get back in England.

The Highwayman

I noticed the lack of ethic diversity not so long after I got here

Ireland does not have a history of jingoistic imperialism so we never had a history of our former conquered 'subjects' following us home or been brought here as slaves(Like in england before it was abolished)

So the idea ethnic diversity is new here. We have gone from less than 1% to nearly 11% non Irish population in less than 20 years. There have been no race riots here, unlike the race riots in the likes of Brixton in your country. I think as a nation we are working through it, its not perfect but we are getting there.

it got to the point when I worded to my partner "Imagine moving here if you weren't white?

Because it was so easy for the people who moved to england in the 50/60's from the west indies and the sub continent and Ireland 'eh? There was no problem with them and landlords. 'No Blacks, No Dogs, No Irish' thats how it was back then we Irish came after the dogs. Hows that for multiculturism?

Before I moved here, I didn't hear about the "potato famine"

We were still part of the union in 1845 and so this is part of your history, your ignorance of this is just that, your ignorance. But I'm sure from your post you are under some illusion that british foreign policy and general contuct in and around the empire was just playing cricket and shopping.

my view of England is that it's full of people who tolerate

BNP
UKIP
National Front
Combat 18
As well as all the extreme islamic groups

All I can say to those who may dislike me based on my nationality is this:

No, I wasn't alive, nor did I have anything to do with anything that has happened to Ireland.


Did you go on any marches to support the Guildford 4 or the Birmingham 6, or to stop interment in the north?
Do you understand that the Irish people are still under the jackboot of colonial rule in the north of the island?
What have you done to help?
Do you even have any idea about the deep and dark history between the two countrys?

The prevailing winds of the Irish nation is to move on, forgive and forget. I for one have to believe this is the only way to go. However you should remember some of the older people in Ireland's mothers and fathers fought to expell the british, that's one generation.

So before you wonder about how we are moving into the 21 century in Ireland, perhaps you should look at the blood and pain the british brand of multiculturism has caused for centuries.

This is all new to us and I think we are slowly getting there. Sure look the english can come over here get better dole than at home and dont have to dig holes.

looksee

Right, well that will really have revised the OP's views. Yes, OP, being English in Ireland will stir up that sort of attitude even if you don't express views on the local culture. Not from everyone, but enough to make you realise that its a beautiful country if you keep quiet.

I think there is a misunderstanding here about what multiculturalism is. It is the idea of having a number of different cultures living in harmony. Of allowing each culture to maintain its language and mores, possibly to the extent of never learning the local language. In fact this leads to a ghetto mentality, and to other cultures wanting to introduce their own laws and possibly contentious customs into the host community, instead of everyone giving way a little and acknowledging people's rights to their own customs while accepting the host country way of life.

The Corinthian

The Highwayman wrote: »

Ireland does not have a history of jingoistic imperialism so we never had a history of our former conquered 'subects' following us home or been brought here as slaves(Like in england before it was abolished)

So the idea ethnic diversity is new here. We have gone from less than 1% to nearly 11% non Irish population in less than 20 years. There have been no race riots here, unlike the race riots in the likes of Brixton in your country. I think as a nation we are working through it, its not perfect but we are getting there.

Turkey was not a German colony. China was not an Australian colony. Italy was not an Argentinian colony. And Ireland was not an American colony.

While a pre-existing colonial history can be a factor in immigrant populations, I think it is often exaggerated by those who don't understand immigration.

Immigrants, excluding those who flee for political reasons, migrate for economic reasons. They may prefer countries where they have an advantage (such as language), but ultimately it comes down to economics not empire. And in this respect, Ireland is a text book example of how migration works, with people leaving up until the Celtic Tiger boom of the nineties because it was frankly economically backward and once again people are leaving now that we're in a deep recession.

As to the rest of your post, it was ironically quite jingoistic.

The Corinthian

looksee wrote: »

I think there is a misunderstanding here about what multiculturalism is. It is the idea of having a number of different cultures living in harmony. Of allowing each culture to maintain its language and mores, possibly to the extent of never learning the local language. In fact this leads to a ghetto mentality, and to other cultures wanting to introduce their own laws and possibly contentious customs into the host community, instead of everyone giving way a little and acknowledging people's rights to their own customs while accepting the host country way of life.

Historically no country adopted a policy of multiculturalism, per say. In the UK, France, Germany and so on, the policy was always one of integration. However, as ghettos began to form and immigrant communities stuck to their own customs, languages and traditions, some countries (most notably the UK) changed their policy to claim that multiculturalism was always the aim.

Personally, I believe that multiculturalism is a positive thing as societies that do not change or adopt new concepts become stagnant. However these new concepts need to be integrated into the society, otherwise they become separate subcultures that only touch our lives when we go for a kebab at closing time.

As such, I think the brand of multiculturalism we have in Europe has been a bit of disaster.

looksee

The Corinthian wrote: »

Historically no country adopted a policy of multiculturalism, per say. In the UK, France, Germany and so on, the policy was always one of integration. However, as ghettos began to form and immigrant communities stuck to their own customs, languages and traditions, some countries (most notably the UK) changed their policy to claim that multiculturalism was always the aim.

Personally, I believe that multiculturalism is a positive thing as societies that do not change or adopt new concepts become stagnant. However these new concepts need to be integrated into the society, otherwise they become separate subcultures that only touch our lives when we go for a kebab at closing time.

As such, I think the brand of multiculturalism we have in Europe has been a bit of disaster.

Yes, I would not disagree with most of that, but there is a sense that there is a link between multiculturalism and racism. If you are against multiculturalism then you must be racist, and its arguable that the opposite is the case.

Your second point is a bit ambiguous as, if new concepts are integrated into society then you do not have multiculturalism, surely? What you describe is the ideal, but the separate subcultures is what the UK has been cultivating by multicultural policies including publishing all documents in 10 or 20 languages so there is no need to make an effort to be part of the larger community. It has gone to an extreme (though I think it is backing off now) where indigenous customs were being overridden by imported ones in the interests of political correctness.

The Corinthian

looksee wrote: »

Yes, I would not disagree with most of that, but there is a sense that there is a link between multiculturalism and racism. If you are against multiculturalism then you must be racist, and its arguable that the opposite is the case.

There is a link between the two - at least a correlative one; that is the further a culture geographically originates your own, the more alien it's likely to be. However, so is the genetic, or racial, makeup of the population that hosts that culture. The closer, the more mixing, both cultural and genetic you'll tend to find.

So while one may reject an alien culture, it may not be due to racism. On the other hand, some will based solely on racism, so there's a lot of chicken and egg going on.

Your second point is a bit ambiguous as, if new concepts are integrated into society then you do not have multiculturalism, surely?

Not sure. An interesting multicultural adoption is the German currywurst, which made it's way into the German diet shortly after WW2 as a housewife sought some way to spice up her limited kitchen and so used some curry powder she got from an British serviceman. In turn, the British imported curry from India, and this is another example of multi-cultural adoption.

I don't know if that is quite multiculturalism, but certainly it's a lot more healthy than ghettoization.

It has gone to an extreme (though I think it is backing off now) where indigenous customs were being overridden by imported ones in the interests of political correctness.

It's a balancing act I think. Multiculturalism is only one influence on a nations culture, after all. Fashion, media, pop, politics and education are all influences that cause our society to mutate - the culture of a nation is always in flux and so as it changes, new values are imposed - often on older generations who like to mumble about how things were better back in the day...

Eve_Dublin

How do the Irish generally view English people, more so English people who choose to move here?

I lived in England and was treated very well by you guys overall. One too many Father Tedesque impersonations of my accent for my liking and that still grates on me. Something slightly condescending about that. Saying all that, a majority of English I met had an Irish grandmother or aunt tucked away somewhere or spent their Summers as kids in Ireland and more often than not, I got the, "Oh I love the Irish!" line. Got the impression we might be seen as loveable buffoons by some people but it's better than being hated.

Will I be judged based on the land that I was born on?

Most definitely yes. People will already have a stereotype of the kind of person you are formed in their minds. Try and take it with a pinch of salt though. The Irish love to take the pee out of people when they initially meet you (it's called "slagging" and can be pretty hard going if you're not used to it) and your Englishness will be the first thing to stand out and you'll probably get an even harder time because you're a guy. I get it when I leave Dublin and head down the country because I'd have a fairly distinctive Dublin accent. I smile through gritted teeth or try and think of some equally "witty" retort to throw back in their faces. It's not to be taken seriously though.

You'll probably get some genuine anti-English attitudes among younger "RA heads" (young supporters of the IRA who know f-all about them in reality). Pay no heed and don't take it personally.

I'd say you'll mainly come against a lot of plain, old curiosity to know where you're from (we tend to know more British geography than visa versa because we get most of your media as well as our own and a lot of people have lived and worked in the UK) and why the hell you moved to a country in the depths of recession more than anything else.

Or will I be viewed as I view everyone else? As another person.

Your accent will distinguish you from others and of course that will be the first thing they will notice. As I said, they'll already have formed an opinion of you the minute you open your mouth. People make a judgement on everyone based on first impressions but as long as you're friendly, you'll get the same treatment most of the time.

Best of luck settling in here, man. I hope you're treated as well here as I was in your country for the 3 years I lived there. I think when it comes to the crunch we don't have a problem with the English. It's mostly all talk and as you said, we probably have more in common with you than not. Just try your best to resist immitating our accent though, okay ?

Dudess

Morphie wrote: »

Before I moved here I lived in England, in a very multi-cultural part of England. Anyway, I've received no help from the state, I was pretty much told to go back to England by the welfare officer. My stay here is only possible since an English couple have allowed us to live in their caravan whilst we sort ourselves out. And I tell you, the way the officer made me feel about being here was rotten, but it is such a beautiful country and I wanted to stay.

It's an interesting topic for me because I noticed the lack of ethic diversity not so long after I got here, it got to the point when I worded to my partner "Imagine moving here if you weren't white?".

Not nice experiences for you unfortunately, but I don't know really whether that's a reflection of Irish society in general. Actually, while I realise there is a lack of ethnic diversity here certainly in comparison to England, it was even far less ethnically diverse up to 15 years ago.

Before I moved here, I didn't hear about the "potato famine" and according to one of the English people I met here, the Irish will "not let you forget about it". Is this true?

It is, unfortunately, in the case of some Irish people who are infuriatingly unwilling to let go of the past - and who get extremely upset over views like mine. I'm not saying to just forget about the famine, but not to hold onto it with bitterness either. I don't think it's widespread though.

How do the Irish generally view English people, more so English people who choose to move here? Will I be judged based on the land that I was born on? Or will I be viewed as I view everyone else? As another person.

Again, I think it's likely your Englishness won't be noted except for the odd time if you have the misfortune to encounter some idiot who "hates the English for what they did to the Irish" historically, while embracing masses of aspects of British culture.

Ireland isn't so different from England, it has far fewer people, different currency, different sports, but largely not a massive culture shock.

I've visited England many times - love going there. Re your comment above: I think it is similar to Ireland, yet simultaneously so, so different.

As for multiculturalism: while I am totally embracing of other cultures and fully support people's rights to observe them away from their native country, I think this needs to be combined with a degree of assimilation in order to prevent marginalisation.