Wrestling (MMA style) comparison with Judo

TKD SC

Hi guys,

Just been thinking over the weekend if anyone might have some insights into the differences and similarities of wrestling (I'm thinking here of greco / roman type / stand-up wrestling as taught in mma clubs here) compared with judo. PLEASE not a one versus the other or better than the other thread!

Just interested in the varying techniques, on a broad level, maybe re the e.g. 6 most used / common techniques.

For example, from my small grappling experience (in mma & judo) the single leg takedown in both seems the same.

Whereas, a lot of the other moves, in wrestling is quite focused on underhooks and keeping opponent quite close, whereas due to the gi, judo isn't necessarily as close as I didn't see many underhooks - it was more grabbing of sleaves and collars in order to set up a throw.

Also wondering therfore, how judo techniques could be used / alterered if just practising in a t-shirt? From memory, a judoka entered a submission wrestling tournament a few months back (in Barry's club I think) and came 3rd place so must have been able to use her knowledge base to work in stand-up / ground grappling scenario with no gi. (yes, maybe she did some cross training).

ANyway, just throwing out some examples above to get things started but I've pretty limited knowledge, hence my q's re comparing the two MAs, and thinking does a lot of the difference simply come down to the training of being in a gi in judo vs not in one in wresting...

Thanks!

Simon

riffmongous

TKD SC wrote: »

Also wondering therfore, how judo techniques could be used / alterered if just practising in a t-shirt?

You should take a look at Karo Parisyans book by Victory Belt, it shows how to do all the main judo techniques from the conventional greco/mma tie ups.

Some of the main wrestling throws are quite similar to judo throws
ura nage/suplex
ippon seoi nage/arm throw
morote gari/double leg
kata-guruma/firemans carry
and of course the hip toss

I think its the different rules that make the biggest difference to how the throws are used, I'm not certain about this since my judo experience was fairly limited so I'm open to correction but judo fights are more likely to be restarted to a standing position if a throw attempt is stuffed

Burnt

There are very few judo throwing techniques that the Gi is essential to
perform. I can only think of one of hand and that is most likely due to
lack of imagination on my part.

In the club where I started the majority of beginners would go maybe 6
weeks without a Gi. It is a college club and they didn't want to put an
expense on the students that would cause them to quit before they
started.

It didn't prove a major handicap as in many cases the Gi simply increased
friction rather than providing a direct handle. However you would have to
practice considerably to bring it to a competitive level against wrestlers.
Many people are surprised that judoka tend to be quite comfortable
throwing from an overhook. In particular uchi mata or hari goshi.

Traditionally wrestlers have a more crouched position than that of judoka,
which is dangerous from distance, e.g. shoot, and very close up, e.g.
bodylock. The shoot and sprawl is something that all Judoka would be
well advise to learn, regardless of the current rules, rather than the duck
and charge we often see.

In between, the general engagement distance in judo, I have personally
found it a bit slower to move around crouched compared to upright.

It is the upright position, and the mats, that leads to judo "secret
weapon" footsweeps. Very few other arts devote much time to
footsweeps, and in particular they have not been developed to the same
degree as in Judo. To the uninitiated they can be quite the shock and hard to
defend against. It is a rather subtle movement, but if well timed it can lead
to a very heavy fall.

Most wrestlers i have met are exceptionally well conditioned and
explosive, they have a good work ethic and are very aggressive, in particular
on the ground. Though they can leave their neck quite exposed for
strangles.

However I have the greatest respect for what they do having found myself
on my arse more than a few times.

TKD SC

Thanks very much for the replies Burnt and Riffmongous.
Interesting stuff...

Doug Cartel

I've only done a little bit of wrestling, but the range seemed to be the biggest difference for me. Judo is done at arms length, but wrestling is up much closer. I think also judo makes it easier to play a defensive game (at least among beginners).

In judo the biggest challenge for me is breaking grips and trying to off-balance my opponent before going for the throw. In wrestling it seems to be all about setting yourself up to be in a good position to shoot in and get a good grip from where you can throw almost straight away.

Sid_Justice

I think you already have a pretty good grasp (no pun intended) of what the differences are. I think the previous posters have also done a good job explaining the differences.

i think judo has a greater emphasis on aesthetics than Wrestling. While there are some beautiful, highly technical throws in wrestling, the real spirit of Judo is nailing people with the most beautiful, stylized throw possible. With Free style wrestling, the aim is just to get the guy on the ground and pin him as quickly as possible.

There is a lot more things "you can't do" in Judo than in Free Style, In judo fights will often be stopped and restarted, penalties given for certain grips or excessive passivity/defence but in wrestling I don't think they have that attitude.

Obviously, the big difference is the use of the suit to throw. As Burnt says, almost all the major judo throws can be transferred into Wrestling with some modification of the grip, I do the exactly same throws in judo Competitions as i do in Submission wrestling competitions.

Wrestling take downs are effective in judo but more and more the rules change to prohibit them, at the moment afaik the single and double leg is illegal without a certain set up.

I don't really know a huge amount of what Free Style Wrestlers do on the ground, some of it just looks silly to me and doesn't lend itself well to Submission/MMA. I think the go to defence for Judo guys is turtle but for wrestling they like to spread themselves out flat on the ground to defend themselves. Obviously with no submissions of any kind in Wrestling (although neck cranks and stuff are used) the ground game is different as well.

Sid_Justice

I think the biggest difference other than the Gi between greco and judo is that Judo does not really encourage fluidy from standing-ground-standing and it usually stops and restarts after one transition. But Wrestling is more free flowing so guys often get throws from the other guy being in a prone position. And no foot trips.

Sid_Justice

Gold medal fight in Greco-Roman Wrestling in Olympics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nG1pVpIAyXk&feature=related

high light of Greco-Roman in Olympics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36oSF8vNd0A&feature=related

Gold medal fight in Free-style Wrestling in Olympics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0y7SQ8_nwpg&feature=channel
high light of Free Style
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ODN4pFDq1s

Gold medal fight judo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjhTt6j0E4A
judo highlight
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn61u4qAOHE&feature=related

TKD SC

Thanks Sid Justice and Doug.

Will check out those youtube vids too when at home.

Summary of mian things as I see it from the comments is:

- Alot of main throws / techniques can be crossed over / used in judo & wrestling with some modifications.

- Foot sweeps in Judo

- Range of fighting - judo being more at arm's length compared to up close.

- Gi vs no Gi - breaking grips being a challenge / part of Judo

- Rules re certain techniques, ground, etc

From my couple of Judo classes, I personally really found the grips being a big part of people controlling me and setting up throws (I was thrown a lot!!), this being the biggest diff to mma style clinch / wrestling work.

Anyway, just been thinking of judo recently, as there is a judo class that suits me location wise etc compared to mma / bjj clubs (and one where you can pay per class which is what I need as it is supplemental to my main training which I pay monthly) - increasing my knowledge of grappling being my main focus. Although admittedly I prefer no-gi stand-up grappling, based on comments, some basics in judo could be good starting point...

Thanks
Simon

riffmongous

I was also thinking of going back to judo recently, but I was wondering if some of the moves that were affected by the recent rules changes are still taught as direct attacks? Or if they can't be used in sparring anymore? So if you dived in for a kata guruma in sparring would you get a ticking off?

Sid_Justice

depends on the club

arybvtcw0eolkf

Sid_Justice wrote: »

depends on the club

And what you set the throw up with.

Keith Gough is drilling the lads up on variations on the different 'ban' throws.

Sorry I've been keeping out of the discussion as I don't have any wrestling experience.

lukeyjudo

OP who cares once you end up in top position?

TKD SC

Alyssa High Pellet wrote: »

Sorry I've been keeping out of the discussion as I don't have any wrestling experience.

Hi Mairt,
Maybe you could add in some comments re Judo techniques / throws working without the gi? If ya feel like it that is!

arybvtcw0eolkf

TKD SC wrote: »

Hi Mairt,
Maybe you could add in some comments re Judo techniques / throws working without the gi? If ya feel like it that is!

Honestly, I'd only be bluffing it, I think I'd have to be training in both systems in equal measure to make an educated guess - sorry.

What I can say, and this comes from many years door work experience. Judo take downs against untrained people are very, very powerful.

But I've never actively trained without the Gi against other trained fighters, and have no sub-wrestling experience to draw upon either, and would rather not bluff things.

lukeyjudo

Come train with me on Fridays if you want to try some no gi judo randori against trained training partners

arybvtcw0eolkf

lukeyjudo wrote: »

Come train with me on Fridays if you want to try some no gi judo randori against trained training partners

Well Luke, as you know from facebook I'm still rehab'ing this ankle injury - but I've every intention of both returning to Coolmine Judo Club - and your BJJ class.

At the moment I'm comfortable training with people who are aware of the seriousness of the injury and where I am in its rehab, and I don't want to go someone where I'd feel like I'm making excuses.

lukeyjudo

Alyssa High Pellet wrote: »

Well Luke, as you know from facebook I'm still rehab'ing this ankle injury - but I've every intention of both returning to Coolmine Judo Club - and your BJJ class.

At the moment I'm comfortable training with people who are aware of the seriousness of the injury and where I am in its rehab, and I don't want to go someone where I'd feel like I'm making excuses.

No problemo! as always the door is always open!

Sid_Justice

My three main no-gi judo throws are Seoi-nage, Harai goshi and uchi mata. Oh and O-goshi/or whatever headlock throw is called koshi-guruma? I'm going to try train with Luke some time soon see what he's got going on seems cool.

lukeyjudo

Sid_Justice wrote: »

My three main no-gi judo throws are Seoi-nage, Harai goshi and uchi mata. Oh and O-goshi/or whatever headlock throw is called koshi-guruma? I'm going to try train with Luke some time soon see what he's got going on seems cool.

It's not cool... ITS AWESOME!!!!!

SBG Ireland

luke has some of the best footsweeps and trips ive seen in no-gi/mma. anybody looking to improve their takedowns would do well to train with him. - john kavanagh

lukeyjudo

SBG Ireland wrote: »

Wow now there's an endorsement! for those who don't know, coolmine jiu jitsu under my dad and then coolmine judo under Kieran foley produced me, but SBG under JK has been evolving and refining me for the past year and is turning me into a better all round athlete.

From my own experience of training all around Europe and USA I've never seen so many people go from zero to excellent in a club before I trained at SBG.

"carlsberg don't do mma/bjj clubs or coaches but if they did it would be SBG under JK" -Lukey Corcoran

arybvtcw0eolkf

Carleberg Boards.ie don't do cheese, but if they did - it would be Lukey cheese :P




:pac:

lukeyjudo wrote: »

.

"carlsberg don't do mma/bjj clubs or coaches but if they did it would be SBG under JK" -Lukey Corcoran