Fairyland

miseeire

Let me start by saying if any newspaper or any form of media print or tell lies about politicians,they should be sued and lose their licence.If,on the other hand,those allegations are true,then it follows that those politicians should be compelled to resign,without a pension or payoff.At a time when our country and her people are suffering like never before,politicians should think very carefully about how they use,or misuse, taxpayers money.Today's Indo claims government ministers are still using aircraft for their own convenience.If this is true,then it's past time to send those overpaid fairies to fairyland where they can live happily everafter.

Permabear

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Sleepy

"March without the people and you march into the night"

If you're seen to be gorging yourself from the trough of taxpayers' money it's incredibly difficult to convince others doing so to eat more modestly or to convince the taxpayers to put more funds in there.

Byron85

donegalfella wrote: »

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Is one set of problems more important than the other? Yes, but that does not mean the two are mutually exclusive.

Fratton Fred

High Wycombe have got the right idea

The weighing process is recorded and the result compared to the weight at the end of the mayoral year. For each of the mayor and corporation, if there has been a weight gain in that year, the person is considered to have been gaining that weight at the taxpayers' expense; they would be jeered and booed, historically accompanied with thrown tomatoes and rotten fruit.

Permabear

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Byron85

donegalfella wrote: »

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That's actually what I was trying to get at. I classed it as two sets of problems that affect each other, one problem is personal spending and the other is spending on financial black holes and all the other problems that go along with it; basically one leads into the other.

(I'm not entirely sure that makes sense.)

SkepticOne

donegalfella wrote: »

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Alternatively you could argue that if we allow politicians to get away with ludicrous trips on government jets to unnecessary junkets in Donegal, allegedly fraudulent expense claims, salaries and entitlements for politicians close to the top of international rates etc. how can you then expect prudent public spending decisions?

My purpose is not to argue these points here but to show that while a lot of problems may be related, you still need to be able to discuss problems individually without someone coming along saying "here's the real problem".

Permabear

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Laminations

donegalfella wrote: »

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The personal consequences should be at least losing your job. Many people want to see the back of this government and FF based simply on the billions they nonchalantly threw around.

Unfortunately many die hard FFers will stifle the hand of the electorate in delivering personal responsibility to this government. These 25% are not convinced the government have been nonchalantly wasting billions, or even if they do recognise this they refuse to change their vote. So in the face of political monogamy, blind loyalty and stubborness, people try and point out any and every reason one should punish FF - it turns to nit-picking and the stories grabbing the headlines are as you point out inconsequential compared to the budget deficit, what tactic do you suggest people use to convince the non-believers that FF are largely responsible for this mess and need to be spoon fed personal responsibility??

If we dont hold our politicians to account we get the calibre we have and deserve. The issues are interconnected

Laminations

donegalfella wrote: »

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The budget deficit is a great example of fiscal irresponsibility. However, inappropriate use of government expenses or the government jet is also an example of this, and maybe one which people can better relate. Like I said above the diehards will vote FF regardless of the budget deficit, if this hasnt convinced them of the fiscal irresponsibility of their government then what will? So we see an attempt to pile story upon scandal upon controversy and maybe the amount of bad press will change minds

Permabear

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Gus99

donegalfella wrote: »

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You could argue its harsh to blame the electorate if they are not being presented with realistic alternatives - if they were being asked (as they were in 2007) to choose between a number of fiscally irresponsible parties all intent on buying the election

SkepticOne

donegalfella wrote: »

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Not enough. They are supposed to provide leadership.

ardmacha

FF simply gave the electorate what they wanted at the time.

They did. But they misrepresented relevant information which would have allowed the electorate make an informed decision.

The government could have clearly identified the revenue drawn from above trend volumes and prices in the housing market and drawn up its proposals excluding these.

Permabear

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RichardAnd

The issue of politicians' expenses is the greatest red herring I have seen since this whole thing started in 2008. I'm not saying they should have a blank cheque but as donegalfella pointed out, double figure billions being borrowed and p*ssed against a wall is far more worrying.

However, and I've said this before, politician's abusing their positions is simply a symptom of the irish problem. If you put 90% of the people in this country in a position where they could claim up to 200k in expenses each year, they would do just that.

Their justification would probably begin with the words "ah sure...".

zielarz

Of course it's people's fault but ultimately the system is wrong. In demo***cy the rabble called majority decides what's right and what's wrong. Any reasonable person knows there are more stupid people in a crowd than wise. As long as demo**cy exists we are doomed to live in the world full of absurds. I bet an average voter doesn't even know how many zeroes are in billion. Still he votes and decides on things beyond his abilities.

RichardAnd

zielarz wrote: »

Of course it's people's fault but ultimately the system is wrong. In demo***cy the rabble called majority decides what's right and what's wrong. Any reasonable person knows there are more stupid people in a crowd than wise. As long as demo**cy exists we are doomed to live in the world full of absurds. I bet an average voter doesn't even know how many zeroes are in billion. Still he votes and decides on things beyond his abilities.

Agreed. And the funny thing is that democracy as it is applied int he western world is not how the Greeks originally envisaged it. In Athens, the vote was given only to the wisest, eldest men in the city as it was deemed that they would be better informed and less impulsive than the masses.

I read recently that there might be the possibility of lowering the legal voting age to 17 and I had to shake my head. The average 17 year old is simply not mature enough to make a rational decision on political matter and will likely be more inclined to vote on what his mates are doing . I recall that in 2007, a friend of mine (19) attended a "pre election party" where he and a dozen others got p*ssed before heading to the polls.

In my opinion, our politicians are simply a symptom of the larger problem of our electorate. At the very least, the voting age should be raised to 21-25. Other than that, there are not many ways to filter out the idiots and those too immature to vote.

Brussels Sprout

RichardAnd wrote: »

Agreed. And the funny thing is that democracy as it is applied int he western world is not how the Greeks originally envisaged it. In Athens, the vote was given only to the wisest, eldest men in the city as it was deemed that they would be better informed and less impulsive than the masses.

The first thing I thought of when I read this was that episode of The Simpsons where Mensa run the city and end up being attacked by an angry mob after creating all sorts of crazy new laws.

paddyland

RichardAnd wrote: »

And the funny thing is that democracy as it is applied int he western world is not how the Greeks originally envisaged it. In Athens, the vote was given only to the wisest, eldest men in the city as it was deemed that they would be better informed and less impulsive than the masses.

While I agree that our interpretation of 'democracy' is up for debate, who would decide who are the 'wisest' in our society?

Would the 'wisest' include people like Sean Fitzpatrick, Fingers Fingleton, Sean Dunne, Liam Carroll, Frank Dunlop, Patrick Neary, Joe Burke, Des Richardson, people of that calibre?

RichardAnd

paddyland wrote: »

While I agree that our interpretation of 'democracy' is up for debate, who would decide who are the 'wisest' in our society?

Would the 'wisest' include people like Sean Fitzpatrick, Fingers Fingleton, Sean Dunne, Liam Carroll, Frank Dunlop, Patrick Neary, Joe Burke, Des Richardson, people of that calibre?

that wasn't my point. I was trying to get across that I believe giving everyone the vote regardless of anything besides age may not be such a wise decision. But yes, you are right that the select elite could easily (especially in ireland) be a selection of the "lads".

all forms of large scale governance have flaws. Sometimes I think we were better off when we were in caves bashing rocks together

irishh_bob

Gus99 wrote: »

You could argue its harsh to blame the electorate if they are not being presented with realistic alternatives - if they were being asked (as they were in 2007) to choose between a number of fiscally irresponsible parties all intent on buying the election

that view might hold water were it not contradicted by the fact that the party which has seen the biggest increase in support since the good times ended has also been the party which has promised no pain and no cuts , im speaking of course of gilmore and co

jimmycrackcorm

I have no issue with ministers flying around everywhere. When Dempsey flew up to Derry and then to London, he missed out spending time with his family.

The only issue I have is with these guys doing their job properly. I also have an issue with the media for mis-representing the truth also - saying that the travel cost €100k when we all know that it is an accountants version of the bill. It's like saying, I have a car - it will cost me €20 to go to the shop 1 km away because I have to take into account all the fixed costs.

As posted, it's all about the deflection.

paddyland

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I have no issue with ministers flying around everywhere. When Dempsey flew up to Derry and then to London, he missed out spending time with his family.

I have a BIG issue with it.

I am strangled trying to earn enough just to survive. Out of that meagre wage I also have to deduct a percentage towards tax. I'd like to think at least that that few euro is going towards hospital services for people who need it, schools, police, and public services at ground level. Because some day I'm going to need them.

I am patently NOT handing over any of my hard earned cash for someone to squander on aeroplanes and junkets. If that is the case, I'd rather keep it and fly somewhere myself. At least I'd get more benefit than anything Dempsey gains me by flying to dinner in London.

I cannot afford it. The country cannot afford it. And by doing as they do, the government are sticking two fingers up to me and everyone else.

jmayo

Laminations wrote: »

Unfortunately many die hard FFers will stifle the hand of the electorate in delivering personal responsibility to this government. These 25% are not convinced the government have been nonchalantly wasting billions, or even if they do recognise this they refuse to change their vote. So in the face of political monogamy, blind loyalty and stubborness, people try and point out any and every reason one should punish FF - it turns to nit-picking and the stories grabbing the headlines are as you point out inconsequential compared to the budget deficit, what tactic do you suggest people use to convince the non-believers that FF are largely responsible for this mess and need to be spoon fed personal responsibility??...

You don't get it do you ?
There is a reason you have die hard ff supporters.
They are supporting the party that supported them.
The amount of ffers who are out canvassing one day and the next you suddenly find son jimmy or daughter mary is working for the county council or has got a state contract of some sort.
ff have always been very good at looking after their own.
Out of that 20 odd percent you will find the ones that did well out of the bubble.
You know the ones who suddenly were building lots of houses in the likes of Leitrim all thanks to ff's section 23 grants.
It is not just blind loyalty, it is loyalty bought and paid for over the decades and it usually is the rest of us non ffer taxpayers that have paid for it.


People are always mouthing off about how someone will vote for ff because their granddaddy did.
Why haven't people figured out that grand daddy got job with state, daddy and the siblings got cushy jobs which meant they didn't have to emigrate, then the new generation got to grow fat during ther bubble years.
Of course things might now be bad, but ff have always looked after them so they will not abandon the party.
Besides when the good times roll again they as loyal supporters will be first in line for the spoils.

One example of this is a quasi ff family who have a TD, a county councillor and their family company are one of the major contractors for Kerry Co Co.

donegalfella wrote: »

In which case the blame lies with the entire political culture of this country, not with one specific party. And that's effectively my point.

Why do people think that the parties somehow materialised into their current
form.
They didn't metamorphosise into their current state overnight.
And before some one claims they are all as bad as each other I will say this:
They may be in terms of incompetence, but ff are streets ahead in terms of corruption, wastefulness, lack of ethics, responsibility and accountability.


The seeds of the corruption and unethical behaviour in ff were sown by the likes of charlie haughey and ray burke back in the 70s.
Yet nothing was done about them.
Of course people may claim that nothing was known.
But it was, in the 70s a journalist wrote an article about burke and it finished his career in this country.

In other countries a whiff of inpropriety is enough to end a high flying career.

These guys were rewarded with power, so the rest saw that there was nothing wrong in accepting a few quid.
lowry was re-elected, as independent with probably most of his old FG supporters on board, topping the poll in Tipperary even though he was found to have fiddled his taxes.
That doesn't say much for FG supporters either, but at least the party kicked him out unlike ff who hang onto their deliquent members come hell or high water.
What incentive is that to the rest, what incentive is it to the decent taxpayers of this coutnry ?

Under ahern in particular, ministers saw that unresponsibility and accountability did not matter, they didn't lose their plumb jobs.
What was worse the electorate didn't seem to care much either, since the likes of the totally wasteful and inept harney, dempsey and cullen romped back into the Dáil.

Who allowed them to prosper, who turned a blind eye to the cr** that people talked about down in the pub.
It's time to face facts a lot of the Irish people admire the cute hoor and appear to think that he/she is only fleecing the system.

What theses gobsh**es fail to notice is they are also part of the system.
It is not some mythical Dublin centric thing, it is us all.

RichardAnd wrote: »

...

I read recently that there might be the possibility of lowering the legal voting age to 17 and I had to shake my head. The average 17 year old is simply not mature enough to make a rational decision on political matter and will likely be more inclined to vote on what his mates are doing . I recall that in 2007, a friend of mine (19) attended a "pre election party" where he and a dozen others got p*ssed before heading to the polls.

In my opinion, our politicians are simply a symptom of the larger problem of our electorate. At the very least, the voting age should be raised to 21-25. Other than that, there are not many ways to filter out the idiots and those too immature to vote.

On this point at last election ff got lots of votes form school leavers and young professionals, not the old farmers as some would have us believe.
These young people actually believed the hype that bertie did indeed give us the celtic tiger and built the world best economy. :rolleyes:

Sadly ff have spread it's tentacles throughout society and voters in this country are easily bought.

djpbarry

miseeire wrote: »

At a time when our country and her people are suffering like never before...

...the use of hyperbole continues to rise skyward as posters on boards lose all sense of perspective.

RichardAnd

djpbarry wrote: »

...the use of hyperbole continues to rise skyward as posters on boards lose all sense of perspective.

He would do well to type the words "great irish famine" into google.

Permabear

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peasant

donegalfella wrote: »

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That said ...if by building up enough public pressure (talk to Joe, by all means) and a media frenzy about all the petty little thieveries and illicit private perks we could force all of them or most of them to resign one by one (preferably without a pension and a golden handshake) ...we could get rid of the whole shower fairly quickly.

dean21

Why do TD's get expenses to travel up to there work in the Dail???????
I know they are not the brightest lamp in the street but I am sure they all new where the Dail was before they went for election.
No other worker gets expenses to travel to work.
So when somebody then see those TD'S scamming there expenses they are going to try and scam there social welfare or there tax payments.
It should be quite simple
1) No travel expenses to the Dail
2) All other expenses must have receipts and if a false claim is found they should be kicked out of public life for life.
3) Also any person caught making false claim on social welfare should be banned from getting any benefits from the state for 10 year.
I am sick of people scamming of the state and it is time they were dealt with