Anyone feel like this game favours the defender?

Zapp Brannigan

Okay let me preface this post by saying I suck at the game and it's prolly my own fault!


But... I find that I always lose my games because I'm trying to push the attack meanwhile the enemy just chills out in their base and techs up leaving me going slightly mad!

I know I need to work on my harrass and pushes but I just can't seem to get it right at the moment.

And if I see another Terran tech to Battlecruisers I'm liable to go mad and hurl my laptop across the room.


not really, it's an expensive laptop, but I might go buy a kitten and kick it

zoom!

A player staying in 1 base turtling is a huge advantage to you. It gives you the chance to expand and tech up yourself. I find that killing defenses is quite easy anyway to a turtling player. As a protoss I just get 2 or 3 colossi to harass his frontline and defenses on the cliff, then I get a warp prism and drop some dt's in his base at the back and warp in some other units and hes pretty much dead.

Zapp Brannigan

I just find that they usually build detectors so stealth doesn't work.

I'm really bad at managing my resources though. I just float way too much minerals.

I know this is mainly my own problem, I just need to vent!

Dcully

I find going defensive and making your base unbreakable goes a long way to a win.
Many times when i just dont have time to slog it out ill go on the offensive earlier, sometimes successful but overall in my bronze league i find guys that go defensive are harder to beat as they have built up their tech tree and have so many units to counter anything i throw at them so to a point yeah i agree it favours defenders, atleast in the bronze league.

Xios

Your army is your best defence tbh, avoid building turrets and bunkers unless you've got a really good reason for doing it.

I always find that sending a few units to harass, like zerglings while building up a much larger attacking force works best, all the while gettin drones and new expansions. Usually 10 mins into a game i can pop out 20-30 units each larvae cycle using queens, the enemy just get's overwhelmed by my numbers

TheDoc

Zapp Brannigan wrote: »

Okay let me preface this post by saying I suck at the game and it's prolly my own fault!


But... I find that I always lose my games because I'm trying to push the attack meanwhile the enemy just chills out in their base and techs up leaving me going slightly mad!

I know I need to work on my harrass and pushes but I just can't seem to get it right at the moment.

And if I see another Terran tech to Battlecruisers I'm liable to go mad and hurl my laptop across the room.


not really, it's an expensive laptop, but I might go buy a kitten and kick it

Its being said above, keep a mild harass going, this keeps the enemy player focused on your movements outside their base.

While doing this you need to be expanding and teching units, you need to manage two fronts at once, your forward line and your base.

Get that down and you really shouldnt ever lose to a turtling player, ever

The advtanage of one base is focusing entirely on micro management and being aggresive with their units, if they are on one base and not being aggresive, time is on your side.

OSiriS

If you look at any real life conflict, it's always been easier to defend than to attack. Just like in life, the way to beat defence is to either overwhelm or wear them down. If someone turtles, let them. Expand, and hold your forces outside their base to stop them leaving. You now have map control, and they have finite resources.

Dacian

Xios wrote: »

Your army is your best defence tbh, avoid building turrets and bunkers unless you've got a really good reason for doing it.

I second this. I think that in Bronze League the 'turtle and tech up' strat will work.
At higher levels the defensive player will surrender map control and allow the opponent to get more expansions and devote more resources to troops/tech as they don't need to build static defense.
Suddenly the turtle guy gets hit with a huge army, even if he defends the opponent will have the better economy to be back very quickly.

Tactically the defender may be at an advantage but Strategically the agressive player is in a better position.

Overheal

Turting is a gambit really: you're giving away so much of the map by doing so, you really need to chance that the limited resources you have will be enough to counter whatever the opponent has. Your priority one outside of turtling has to be seek and destroy of enemy expos and economies. It only takes a few air units to get behind someone's base and shred out their miners.

Tactically the defender may be at an advantage but Strategically the agressive player is in a better position.

This. Turtling does not win the game, but it is incredibly useful in individual encounters. It's a fine thing to do in 2s and 3s, especially if you're couple with aggressive allies.

Kirby

I find heavy turtling alot more effective against zerg than protoss and terran.

Zerg's main tier 3 unit is the Ultralisk. While great units, they are very large and are incredibly vulnerable to small choke points that terran players love to cover.

This leaves the Zerg player usually only a couple of options. Expand early and cover the map. Rake in the resources, build large armies and wait for your opponent to run out of money and stroll in.

Or try and overlord drop some units in behind. Nydus network can work too.

Toss and terran have defence breaking units such as Siege tanks and Collossus. Zerg don't have that so they have to rely on those two options which can be frustrating at times. The only semi-siege busting unit they have is the broodlords. But they are much more expensive and i think they could use a couple more points of range.

Recently, I've tried stealth dropping 3 or 4 infestors in behind the base defences and mind controlling all the choke point units and then try and bust through. It has varying success though.

Zerg really do struggle vs mass terran units at choke points imo. If you don't kill him in the first 10 minutes, its probably going to be a game of attrition tbh.

Cuddlesworth

If they are sitting in their base you should keep building both your army, production facilities and expansions. They when he feels the need to take another expansions you have both a huge army and the ability to quickly rebuild it. Far faster then he can possibly think of.

Tbh teching up is great, but if a 200 food army of Stalkers(for example) blinks up the cliff and starts running through your base, 2-4 battle cruisers are not going to make much of a difference. Especially when a 200 food army of stalkers runs right back in 1 minutes later.

seraphimvc

Kirby wrote: »

I find heavy turtling alot more effective against zerg than protoss and terran.

Zerg's main tier 3 unit is the Ultralisk. While great units, they are very large and are incredibly vulnerable to small choke points that terran players love to cover.

This leaves the Zerg player usually only a couple of options. Expand early and cover the map. Rake in the resources, build large armies and wait for your opponent to run out of money and stroll in.

Or try and overlord drop some units in behind. Nydus network can work too.

Toss and terran have defence breaking units such as Siege tanks and Collossus. Zerg don't have that so they have to rely on those two options which can be frustrating at times. The only semi-siege busting unit they have is the broodlords. But they are much more expensive and i think they could use a couple more points of range.

Recently, I've tried stealth dropping 3 or 4 infestors in behind the base defences and mind controlling all the choke point units and then try and bust through. It has varying success though.

Zerg really do struggle vs mass terran units at choke points imo. If you don't kill him in the first 10 minutes, its probably going to be a game of attrition tbh.

you speak the truth!

nydus is the only way that works for me, turtled terran is a nightmare!

Xios

seraphimvc wrote: »

you speak the truth!

nydus is the only way that works for me, turtled terran is a nightmare!

I never built ultralisks in a league game, or corrupters.
If you keep the terran turtling it's insta win tbh. A good mix of zerg/baneling, roaches, hydras and infestors will but down most defences.
Stealth the infestors in and pop loadsa infested terran in to distract the defences, then rush the choke, all the while rebuilding your army and setting the rally to their main. The first waves breaks them, the second cleans up.

seraphimvc

Xios wrote: »

I never built ultralisks in a league game, or corrupters.
If you keep the terran turtling it's insta win tbh. A good mix of zerg/baneling, roaches, hydras and infestors will but down most defences.
Stealth the infestors in and pop loadsa infested terran in to distract the defences, then rush the choke, all the while rebuilding your army and setting the rally to their main. The first waves breaks them, the second cleans up.

xios you need to post up a replay so i can learn from it!

i am now seeing some 'pro' turtle who actually goes vikings(for no whatever reason since i have no air) and detector around the base just to prevent me nydus/overlord drop :pac: mass tanks behind the wall - they are waiting me to break the wall and if i fail he wins...so freaking lame! i know i need to out-macro him but these 'pro' turtle knows how to keep dropping marauder in my base and ruin up abit...

feel kinda tired when i need to work so freaking hard to counter their a few point and click. medivac is IMBA!

Xios

seraphimvc wrote: »

xios you need to post up a replay so i can learn from it!

I would but i can't find the files lol.

Jonny7

Xios wrote: »

I never built ultralisks in a league game, or corrupters.
If you keep the terran turtling it's insta win tbh. A good mix of zerg/baneling, roaches, hydras and infestors will but down most defences.
Stealth the infestors in and pop loadsa infested terran in to distract the defences, then rush the choke, all the while rebuilding your army and setting the rally to their main. The first waves breaks them, the second cleans up.

Well if he turtles and doesn't do anything else.. he is really asking for it

Of course most players in silver/gold and above have learnt they can turtle ...and harass. Hellion harass you so you stay at tier 1, reaper harass you, bunker marine push (vicious at the moment), 4 min 45 second banshees, viking push, 6 min drop, all the while watching your exact buildings - baneling (tanks) spire (thors) and all the time.. while turtling. Bastards.

Xios

Hence the good mix of forces, zerglings soak up powerful slow fire attacks and if hey don't, they do lotsa damage, roaches take a good bit of punishment and the rangalisks take down anything quite fast when focusing. Banelings mixed in deal with any bio balls you encounter.

With 3/4 hatcheries and queens, when your army dies, just select all the hatcheries and spam [R] and [H] hotkeys, and rally them outside the enemies base, ya should get a good 25-30 fresh units each attack wave.

As for harassment, speedlings are a must to catch any reapers or helions, later a couple of hydralisks will sort out any of these problems, including void rays/pheonix and banshees, i always get an overseer when i can afford one.

seraphimvc

if you using windows 7 the replays are in your My Document->SC2 gogo!

and ye, a noob turtle is fine, but a good turtle with hellion/reaper/banshee/ghost nuke/drop ship can easily used up alot of unnecessary time/resource to take care of them. learnt alot from these turtles tho :pac:

Zombrex

Zapp Brannigan wrote: »

Okay let me preface this post by saying I suck at the game and it's prolly my own fault!


But... I find that I always lose my games because I'm trying to push the attack meanwhile the enemy just chills out in their base and techs up leaving me going slightly mad!

I know I need to work on my harrass and pushes but I just can't seem to get it right at the moment.

And if I see another Terran tech to Battlecruisers I'm liable to go mad and hurl my laptop across the room.


not really, it's an expensive laptop, but I might go buy a kitten and kick it

You want to scout his base, see what units he is stock piling (if he is a noob he is probably only building a lot of a few different units) and then push a couple of waves of the units that counter his defensive units (if in doubt the Help section at the top of the screen will tell you what units other units are weak against). So if he is building a lot of ground units throw some air attacks at him.

Xios

There, i attatched a file, i took my sweet as time playing this game though.

The terran only built 1 base and went tanks, he lost