Was "sibh" ever used in a singular manner?

dlofnep

One thing I've noticed looking at Scottish and Manx Gaelic, was that their plural forms of you (ye), can also be used in a singular form. As I understand it, the rules are to use it in a singular form are when speaking to someone older/of senior authority/in a formal manner.

Given that Scottish Gaelic & Manx are both deeply rooted in middle-Irish, along with Irish - I find it strange that this is not seen in Irish. (Or is it and have I just not heard of it?)

Examples:

Ciamar a tha thu / Ciamar a tha sibh (How are you)

Which looks to be derived from "Cad é mar atá tú" in Ulster Irish.

In Manx Gaelic - Both "oo" and "shiu" are used - "oo" being the singular form, and "shiu" being both plural, and formal singular form.

Was this seen in Irish prior to the caighdeán oifigiúil, does anybody know?

Raic

In Classical Irish sibh was used as a polite form of tú, all right. However, there is a remnant of this usage in modern Irish, you use "sibh" with priests.

dlofnep

Ah right, I didn't know that. Cheers I figured it couldn't be unique to just Scottish & Manx.

nbrome

That's very interesting. Is it used only with priests, though? What if you were speaking to the President of the Republic? What if you didn't use it when speaking to a priest - would this be a great mistake?

Raic

nbrome wrote: »

That's very interesting. Is it used only with priests, though? What if you were speaking to the President of the Republic? What if you didn't use it when speaking to a priest - would this be a great mistake?

I'm pretty sure it's only with priests. I wouldn't say that not using it with priests would be a mistake since the distinction is disappearing anyway.

Krusader

I doubt that young speakers of the language would use that, they may just use tú, maybe elderly speakers might still use it

Raic

Crosáidí wrote: »

I doubt that young speakers of the language would use that, they may just use tú, maybe elderly speakers might still use it

I found a thread about this http://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/13510/42786.html?1241632126 (That's probably where I first heard about it)

In the thread it mentions a passage from Graiméar na mBráithre Críostaí,
"13.29 Iolra an fhorainmnigh a úsáidtear go minic ag caint le heaglaiseach. Iolra an ómóis a thugtar air: Dia daoibh, a athair; conas tá sibh, a athair? fanaigí anseo, más é bhur dtoil é, a shagairt."

You can download that grammar here -> http://ec.europa.eu/translation/irish/documents/christian_brothers_comprehensive_irish_grammar_ga.pdf
The passage is on page 133.

Krusader

I dont think its convention now to use it, 'cause it would be still in all modern grammar books

maybe it was convention just for the CB to use it as priests would be their superiors so to speak

Aard

"Bíodh an Tiarna libh."
"Agus leat féin."

This is what we learnt in school.

Grudaire

Raic wrote: »

In Classical Irish sibh was used as a polite form of tú, all right. However, there is a remnant of this usage in modern Irish, you use "sibh" with priests.

Thats interesting because in German the polite way of referring to someone is using the plural form as well.. That convention exists in the German language still.
Although I have never seen it done in Irish (except here).

dlofnep

Cliste wrote: »

Thats interesting because in German the polite way of referring to someone is using the plural form as well.. That convention exists in the German language still.
Although I have never seen it done in Irish (except here).

Yes, it's common in many languages - Including Manx Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic, which is why I was curious if it existed in Irish, considering they all come from the same root language.

Krusader

It was also common in English at one stage with "thou" being the singular and "you" the plural

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%E2%80%93V_distinction#English

Grudaire

Hmmm, it died out in English but still exists in German (Both Germanic languages). I presume the same happened with Irish.

I like the idea of a polite form in irish - I'd begin doing it myself except I'd be fighting the norm!

nbrome

It's a pain in the neck. Sometimes you're not sure what to use with someone you know. Requires a bit of dancing around to see what the other says.
In Italian they use the third person singular as the polite form, in the feminine gender (it comes from Spanish influence).
So Lei means You (polite) and it also means She or Her. When I first came to Italy I spent a year looking round to see who was behind me whenever I was addressed as Lei.

topper75

Interesting post.

I'm glad to see the back of it to be honest. I've seen the confusion is raises in other languages about when it is appropriate. It is of no practical use.

French has tu and vous, a direct equivalent to Gaeilge's tú and and antiquated sibh.

Catalan and Spanish have vosté and usted respectively. These are singular third person words like the Italian lei referred to above. They are akin to Sir/Madam in English -

"Would sir like his shoes polished?"
"Shall madam require her breakfast at 8 o'clock?"

An gal gréine

Just learned from a native speaker that the reason "sibh" was used was because it would cover your guardian angel and/or God who were always with you !

dlofnep

An gal gréine wrote: »

Just learned from a native speaker that the reason "sibh" was used was because it would cover your guardian angel and/or God who were always with you !

Thanks!