Selling a used car - owner deceased, no vehicle registration form

The Sweeper

Hi guys

Not a regular poster in here (...in fact, may well have never posted in here) so please bear with me. I've done some forum searches for my question, but to be honest everything's a bit hard at the moment so please bear with me and help with answers if you can.

My father died suddenly and unexpectedly on 31st July just gone. He leaves a 10 year old Renault Megane that now has to be sold (mom can't drive and isn't about to take lessons.)

I've been through the car and the document wallet and I cannot find a vehicle registration certificate to say that dad owns the car - but the insurance company have been insuring him on it for the last five years so I assume it is actually in his name. He bought it from a family friend five years ago who didn't even give him a receipt for it, so I suppose there is a tiny (and rather horrifying) chance that the car isn't actually his on paper...

Anyway - I'm taking my mum to the solicitor next Tuesday about changing the will etc, but this leaves me wondering how do I prove the car was dad's in the first place, so ownership of it can default to mum so she can sell it?

• I haven't lived in Ireland in 8 years and never owned a car here - how do you prove you own a car in this country? Is it through a vehicle registration cert, or something else?
• Assuming we've lost whatever document you have to prove ownership, how do I get a new version of that document?

If someone can point me in the right direction so I know what it is I should have to prove the car was my father's, then at least I know where to start in terms of getting whatever I may need from the solicitor or the gardai so I can sell it.

Thanks all - I leave the country again on 31st August and am desperate to try and sell the car before I go, so mom doesn't have to worry about it.

kasper

apply to your local motor taxation office for a duplicate registeration form i dont know the code for this document but i am sure staff in the office will , it will cost i think 12 euro for replacement no need for guards r solictor

The Sweeper

Thanks for that, but re the guards or solicitor, surely I need something to prove that the car is now my mums, on the basis that you just can't go around selling someone else's car?

star-pants

Firstly, I'm very sorry for the loss to you & your family

Secondly, I'm not sure myself but I would assume if you had details of the car / insurance etc, and went to your local Motor Tax office & enquired, they might be able to let you know if the car is in his name. If it is, and you still can't find the logbook (ownership), if you fill out this form at your local Garda Station & send it in, you might be able to get a replacement copy of it.

Again not 100% sure, just figured it might be of some use.
Once you have the reg in his name you can say to the Motor people that your father has now passed away and what's the procedure, they may know.

johndaman66

My condolences on your fathers sudden passing OP.

star-pants wrote: »

I'm not sure myself but I would assume if you had details of the car / insurance etc, and went to your local Motor Tax office & enquired, they might be able to let you know if the car is in his name. If it is, and you still can't find the logbook (ownership), if you fill out this form at your local Garda Station & send it in, you might be able to get a replacement copy of it.

Again not 100% sure, just figured it might be of some use.
Once you have the reg in his name you can say to the Motor people that your father has now passed away and what's the procedure, they may know.

I was initially thinking RF134 but the fact that the current registered owner needs to sign the RF134 and obviously can't happen if deceased. So legally I doubt the RF134 will suffice. The only way around this would be to forge the registered owners signature and of course this would be illegal and I am not condoning fraud for one minute.

I believe you may need to apply for a new registration certificate by getting a peace commissioner to sign a statement pertaining to the circumstances and also may need to get Renault to verify the chassis number of the car against its registration plate. Only then can you apply for a new VLC. The whole process can cost up to 100 euro or more as far as I'm aware and won't happen overnight either. I stand to be corrected on any of the above points and perhaps the circumstances differ in the case of registered owner has passed on. Perhaps the solicitor dealing with your fathers will might be the best person to try sort this out for you?

kasper

get the replacement document ,when the car is being sold get your mother to sign the the document as the previous owner it is not fraud , because the ownership passes to your mother , sorry to hear about your dad

johndaman66

kasper wrote: »

get the replacement document ,when the car is being sold get your mother to sign the the document as the previous owner it is not fraud , because the ownership passes to your mother , sorry to hear about your dad

I'm not arguing with you Kasper and to be fair I'm not sure either but are you sure its simply that easy? Lets assume that the car was left to OP's mother (which may not necessairly be the case either). How are Shannon to know the circumstances when they receive an application for a duplicate VLC without the current owners name on it? If as I think you are suggesting the OP's mother was to sign OP's fathers name to document I would contest that legally, that is absolutely fraud whether or not the car was left to her and see no two ways about that.

star-pants

Ah sorry, silly me not thinking about the 'owner' signing it.
I'd still ask in the Motor Tax office when you're finding out if it is in his name, what to do in this situation, they may say to fill out that form (not sign it) but put in a copy of the death certificate or something & they might issue a copy of the reg form.

_Conrad_

Sorry for your loss.

There is a simple solution.
Go to a motor tax office, and explain that you need to ge the car registered in your name, or your mother's name. You'll have to get a form (sadly i cant remember the name off hand, but they'll know in the tax office), which you get signed/stamped by a solicitor or comissioner of oaths, and you state that the previous regitered owner is deceased and you need to get the registration in your name so you can sell it.
I've had to use that process several times when buying old/classic cars to fix up, as the "tax book" is often missing or in another name. It's not very hard to do

kasper

i have two cars that were belong to two different uncles , i got the cars after they died they didnt sign the documents and neither of them have looked for them back because i got them by fraud . years ago i bought a car from the brother of a guy that was dead the seller hadnt the vlc i applied forit filled in the previous owners signature no problem . dead people cant sue you for fraud and they cant complain to shannon that someone forged their signature .

corktina

Sorry for your loss, in a similar situation myself.

I guess strictly the car can't be sold until Probate is obtained on the will leaving it to the spouse (assuming there is a will). Documentation could then be provided to the dept allowing a new certificate to be issued in your Mothers name.


However, I think I would just write to the Dept on behalf of your Mother and explain you need a copy taxbook and why (as you have here) and see what they advise.

The Sweeper

Thanks all. There is a will. All of my father's possessions go to my mother, therefore the car is hers. We're to the solicitors on Tuesday to execute the will. Will have a chat with the solicitor there and see if it's simple enough to get them to print out the form and draw up whatever document we'd need so that we can get a new VRC or VLC and then sell the car.

Thanks for that - the ma certainly wouldn't have the stomach for forging the da's signature on anything right now, so there really is no option other than to do all of this absolutely above board.

spurious

Sorry for your loss.

I bought my car from the previous registered owner's widow.
In that case she had the papers, but on the forms, she just filled in 'estate of the late XXX XXXX' and signed her name.
Everything proceeded smoothly.

johndaman66

_Conrad_ wrote: »

Sorry for your loss.

There is a simple solution.
Go to a motor tax office, and explain that you need to ge the car registered in your name, or your mother's name. You'll have to get a form (sadly i cant remember the name off hand, but they'll know in the tax office), which you get signed/stamped by a solicitor or comissioner of oaths, and you state that the previous regitered owner is deceased and you need to get the registration in your name so you can sell it.
I've had to use that process several times when buying old/classic cars to fix up, as the "tax book" is often missing or in another name. It's not very hard to do

Conrad I think the procedure as you state it is pretty much bang on and thanks for correcting me on Commissioner of Oaths (I had down Peace Commissioner). As you say overall I think the procedure is pretty easy but I do believe it can be up to six weeks before the new owner has the VLC in their possession am I right in saying? I don't think the OP wil necessairly expect to have the VLC before he leaves Ireland in August. Mind you I think its optomistic to envisage having the car sold before late August OP the way the market is at the moment in Ireland. I'm sure it is possible but if you want to sell it that quick you may need to price it pretty cheap. Also does OP need to get Renault to verify the chassis number against car registration in the case of a missing VLC I believe? I thought I was going to have to do this once to obtain a VLC when it went walkies and trader I bought car of was not too helpful but didn't need to in the end as it happened. As far as I recall from my research it would have cost me about 80/90 quid for Opel to verify chassis number against car reg and to get the Commissioner of Oaths/ solicitor signature.

johndaman66

kasper wrote: »

i have two cars that were belong to two different uncles , i got the cars after they died they didnt sign the documents and neither of them have looked for them back because i got them by fraud .

At the end of the day it is fraud though kasper which is illegal and just because your uncles were deceased and cannot pursue you does not make it right or legal. Its most likely you will get away with it but there are certainly cases where you wont for example in the below scenario....

kasper wrote: »

years ago i bought a car from the brother of a guy that was dead the seller hadnt the vlc i applied forit filled in the previous owners signature no problem . dead people cant sue you for fraud and they cant complain to shannon that someone forged their signature .

If the car was not that brothers car to sell and he took possession of it on the death of his brother. The car may have being left to the spouse. Car may not (then again may) be worth a lot of money but the spouse finds her inherited car sold from under her nose and the brother has legged it with the sale proceeds. She may obviously want the car for her own use/ to sell to cover funeral expenses etc or for sentimenal reasons, which is her entitlement. She contacts the Guards and you may find yourself down a car and the brother may find himself in pretty hot water.

kasper

no widow or kids no fraud the car was sold by me after no problem , as my two aunts gave /sold cars that had not there names on the title ,the only people that can sue me or my aunts for fraud cant because they are dead and buried .if it does happen i will be surprised

johndaman66

kasper wrote: »

no widow or kids no fraud the car was sold by me after no problem , as my two aunts gave /sold cars that had not there names on the title ,the only people that can sue me or my aunts for fraud cant because they are dead and buried .if it does happen i will be surprised

Fair enough in them instances kasper, you will quite easily get away with it but all the same to falsify documents is fraud which is very much illegal and just because your uncles were dead does not absolve you either. I hope you appreciate my point. In the case of the car you bought, you knew the circumstances so weren't going into it with your eyes shut but would you be as comfortable buying a car in the same scenario in another part of the country where you weren't familiar with the circumstances and the car was in actual fact belonging to a spouse and the brother had no authority express or implied to sell the motor and then legged it with the proceeds. I know I wouldn't be too happy with such a situation if I were the buyer. You can see in this case why fraud is quite obviously illegal and why the correct procedure should be adhered to in the first place.