Domestic Fire Alarm

americanpie

What are the regs. regarding domestic fire alarm?

Is it a heat detector in the kitchen, smoke in the living room and a smoke in each bedroom?

And are they are run off of a 6 amp MCB with 3 core and then interlinked with a single cable.

Am I missing anything or is this right?

Thanks

meercat

The regs are that a heat detector in kitchen a smoke in the hall a smoke on landing and a smoke in main living area. These are minimum requirements. In some installations with large landings and multiple living areas it is advisable to install more detectors. You could wire with 4x1.5 nymj or use 1.5 t+e with a 1.5 PVC/PVC interlink. The bedrooms don't have to be done but if you wanted to it would be no harm

Buford T Justice

Speaking of which, there is one in a hall that I am doing work in at the moment, but its doesn't seem to work. Are they normally just wired to a 6A MCB, and what would be the common cause of them to go faulty?

M cebee

a mix of optical and ionization is recommended for domestic,as well as the kitchen heat alarm

sometimes they're doubled up with a lighting mcb to prevent the alarms being easily 'shut off' by users

1.5 is the minimum here for fixed wiring

bertie 56

meercat wrote: »

The regs are that a heat detector in kitchen a smoke in the hall a smoke on landing and a smoke in main living area. These are minimum requirements. In some installations with large landings and multiple living areas it is advisable to install more detectors. You could wire with 4x1.5 nymj or use 1.5 t+e with a 1.5 PVC/PVC interlink. The bedrooms don't have to be done but if you wanted to it would be no harm

Hi there,

Any update on this ? Did the regs changed since 2010 ?
Thanks,

Hoagy

bertie 56 wrote: »

Hi there,

Any update on this ? Did the regs changed since 2010 ?
Thanks,

There's a new edition of the fire alarm standard IS3218:2013
I don't know whether the Building Regs require compliance with it yet, but certainly the Dublin Local Authorities are requiring it for new builds.
I would imagine that it will be mandatory in due course.

Dwellings are covered in it for the first time.

LD2: apartments/houses up to three storeys and 200 square mtrs.
Smoke or heat in escape routes and high fire risk areas such as kitchen,living rooms, garage plus all bedrooms.

LD1: larger dwellings.
Smoke or heat throughout. All rooms or areas including attics where a fire might start except bathrooms etc.

CO alarms will be mandatory under the Building Regs from 1st September.
The DLA's are requiring interlinking with the fire alarm and a hush switch.

hufpc8w3adnk65

So in a standard 3 bed house house your now talking smokie in hall,front room ,landing 3xbedrooms& attick and garage if they have them and heat in kitchen and carbon monoxide near boiler? All mains and all interlinked

Hoagy

MrMac84 wrote: »

So in a standard 3 bed house house your now talking smokie in hall,front room ,landing 3xbedrooms& attick and garage if they have them and heat in kitchen and carbon monoxide near boiler? All mains and all interlinked

A standard 3 bed would be LD2 so no need to cover the attic, otherwise you're spot on.

Bpmull

We recently done up my parents house I done a good bit of the wiring. We have 3 one in ground floor hall outside kitchen, one on the first landing, one on the top second landing, a carbon monoxide in the boiler room. I may stick a heat detector in the kitchen going by what said. I think we have it quiet well done as it not a big house at all. As for wiring I used a 1.5 cable with brown then grey coating can't remember what there called. Each alarm is looped gets its power of the nearest light. This way each alarm is on a seperate mcb so if one mcb tripped you'd still have 3 getting power maybe it was the wrong way to do it but most logical to me spread the risk rather than having them all on one 6 amp mcb .

hufpc8w3adnk65

Bpmull wrote: »

We recently done up my parents house I done a good bit of the wiring. We have 3 one in ground floor hall outside kitchen, one on the first landing, one on the top second landing, a carbon monoxide in the boiler room. I may stick a heat detector in the kitchen going by what said. I think we have it quiet well done as it not a big house at all. As for wiring I used a 1.5 cable with brown then grey coating can't remember what there called. Each alarm is looped gets its power of the nearest light. This way each alarm is on a seperate mcb so if one mcb tripped you'd still have 3 getting power maybe it was the wrong way to do it but most logical to me spread the risk rather than having them all on one 6 amp mcb .

i belive looping off lights isnt accepted

hufpc8w3adnk65

Hoagy wrote: »

A standard 3 bed would be LD2 so no need to cover the attic, otherwise you're spot on.

I can see the point of looping into the attic. I think its probably best too get into the habit of doing it now as its only a matter of time before that is the standard in 3 bed houses.

Bpmull

MrMac84 wrote: »

i belive looping off lights isnt accepted

I'd prefer to have mine on 4 different MCB's than on one mcb. Obviously I was looping of the permanent live at each light not the switched live. If you were looping them of a switched live then it would be useless as everytime you'd turn of the lights the alarm would be relying on the battery back ups. All the lights were wired with a permanent live, neutral, earth from the board. And then a brown,brown, earth from switch to light. I'm sure you all can guess the rest from there good set up I recon. I know older set ups were neutral from board to light and live from board to switch them switched live from switch to light which would be a useless set up to loop fire alarms off.

Sir Arthur Daley

Bpmull wrote: »

.All the lights were wired with a permanent live, neutral, earth from the board. And then a brown,brown, earth from switch to light. I'm sure you all can guess the rest from there good set up I recon.

3 plate method, economical way in wiring, I like it too has its advantages and disadvantages like everything else, are the alarms interconnected by you at all?

Bpmull

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

3 plate method, economical way in wiring, I like it too has its advantages and disadvantages like everything else, are the alarms interconnected by you at all?

Yep all 4 four go off together if one is set of. Just a simple 1.5 brown with grey costing to each alarm act as a inter connector. Simple set up but effective I think.

mikeyjames9

Bpmull wrote: »

I'd prefer to have mine on 4 different MCB's than on one mcb.

that's not allowed here


i think they do it in the uk sometimes if they're using wireless interconnect for the mains alarms

hufpc8w3adnk65

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

that's not allowed here


i think they do it in the uk sometimes if they're using wireless interconnect for the mains alarms

Ya I didn't think it was allowed either... Not saying it's wrong or not a better system, just that I didn't think it was the way too wire them.

Bpmull

MrMac84 wrote: »

Ya I didn't think it was allowed either... Not saying it's wrong or not a better system, just that I didn't think it was the way too wire them.

You may be well right. The house is almost 200 years old so I don't know how much the regulations would even apply to it not sure if it's just new builds. Maybe a single mcb for alarms would be neater but I couldn't see the way I have it done causing any trouble either. At the end of the day they all work all go off together if one goes off they get there live permanently independently of whether the lights are on or off. Still has to be a way better system than is in most houses either there one or two battery alarms if your lucky. Not that I'm trying to argue regulations if you were building a new house and a single alarm circuit is stated in the regulations for fire alarms then that's what should be followed.

Sir Arthur Daley

Bpmull wrote: »

You may be well right. Maybe a single mcb for alarms would be neater but I couldn't see the way I have it done causing any trouble either. At the end of the day they all work all go off together if one goes off they .

You managed to interlink them with a single brown, how hard would it be to have had ran a T+E with it and loop like what you did with the interconnecting?

Bpmull

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

You managed to interlink them with a single brown, how hard would it be to have had ran a T+E with it and loop like what you did with the interconnecting?

It wouldn't have been hard too do at all. I'm not a qualified Electricien just have experience in the area. So I didn't wire the house from scratch. The Electricien that was doing the job wanted them wired that way. It wouldn't be a whole lot harder to do it the other way. Tbh there is very few lights on each circuit anyway in most 2-3 light many of them were led spot of the amount of current drawing is tiny. Maybe the alarms should have been wired to a single mcb but other than that I really can't fault the job. Loads of MCB's which is good to see. A socket mcb for almost each room with a few for the kitchen. 5 MCB's or so for lights. All this in a very small house. It means there is no real load on any one perticular circuit which can only be a good thing. The original board before the house was rewired had one mcb for all lights says it all really.

Sir Arthur Daley

Sounds like he did a good job, just questioning why he wired the alarms that way? Maybe since he did 3 plate he had power in the ceiling and said it be a handy place to get power.

Bpmull

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Sounds like he did a good job, just questioning why he wired the alarms that way? Maybe since he did 3 plate he had power in the ceiling and said it be a handy place to get power.

Well that's the way I would see it anyway. Good to know that a separate circuit is the way it should be done. Tbh the guy that done it never really does house as he works in the same company as me which only does large commerical / industrial jobs, schools, hospitals that kind of stuff. So it's very different when we do fire alarms it's in conduit with fire tuff cable. So he probably isn't up on recent housing regulations but an excellent Electricien at the same time. Anyway I don't want to bring this thread anymore if topic. Thanks to everyone for clearing it up You learn something new everyday.

mikeyjames9

MrMac84 wrote: »

Ya I didn't think it was allowed either... Not saying it's wrong or not a better system, just that I didn't think it was the way too wire them.

it's a terrible idea tbh

4 lighting breakers for wired interconnect alarms

hufpc8w3adnk65

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

it's a terrible idea tbh

4 lighting breakers for wired interconnect alarms

Yes having 4 breakers increases the likely hood of electric shock

Bpmull

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

it's a terrible idea tbh

4 lighting breakers for wired interconnect alarms

If it's such a terrible idea can you not at least explain why? I can't see any problem. I can't see any issue there is 2-3 lights on each circuit and the fire alarm. Maybe if there was 30 lights on a circuit or something. There isn't even an amp going through the circuits never mind 10 so it's not as if they will be tripping to often the MCB's. After checking there really on two circuits the smoke alarms and another circuit the CO sensor so really 3 I suppose as there is a few lighting circuits with none on them.

I have no problem with you saying it a bad idea and you may well be right. But to go on about how bad it is and never say why is just stupid.

Bpmull

MrMac84 wrote: »

Yes having 4 breakers increases the likely hood of electric shock

Ah ok that's what it's about I get it now. I can understand now. Easier to work on the alarms if one mcb turns them all off. Tbh my parents will never go near them if something goes wrong I'll be looking at them. Obviously I know which mcb does which but I might actually mark that on the board to clarify. I was thinking about doing out a detailed sheet as to what each mcb feeds and leave it near the board. I would personally check all wires with a meter or pen tester to see that they were live before going at them which I assume any other decent Electricien would do too. Thanks for at least pointing out the issue.

mikeyjames9

you can't work on the alarm system for a start without turning off all the lights

leaving you in the dark


maybe you forget to turn off one breaker and get a shock

you cant do any work on any of the lighting circuits without having a smoke alarm beeping because of loss of mains power

Bpmull

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

you can't work on the alarm system for a start without turning off all the lights

leaving you in the dark


maybe you forget to turn off one breaker and get a shock

you cant do any work on any of the lighting circuits without having a smoke alarm beeping because of loss of mains power

Ok get you now alright. I thought you all meant there was something wrong with mixing alarms and lights on the same from an electrical point of view. But I completely get you now it would have been better to put them on a single circuit. It would have been neater and more practical. Tbh it's unlikely enough someone will be working on them in the dark and a decent flash light solves the problem.

As for getting shocks well if your not going to double check that circuits are dead before working on the with a tester then you will eventually get shocked. I'd assume any decent Electricien wouldn't assume that because he flicked one lighting mcb that all the fire alarms would be dead. It's not like I have fire alarms marked under one mcb to try to catch them out. Chances are I'll be the main person working on it anyway. But you can only learn from your mistakes at least I know if I build a house in the future to ensure there on a seperate mcb. I appreciate you all explaining it to me at least if I know the reasons why the other way is better I am learning.

The way I look at it it's a decently wired house now. A lot better than the 100 junction boxes and burned cables in it. Cables twisted together without even connectors. As we only moved into the house we couldn't believe the state of the wiring when stripping it. The way I look at it it's wired to a high standard now with lots of seperate circuits and MCB's an mcb for sockets in each room lights on each floor often 2. No breaks in cables or any of that.

Lapin

I'm house sitting at a friends for the weekend. Last night a couple of trip switches went knocking off the lights in the hallway. Since I flicked them back, the smoke alarm in the kitchen has been pipping about once every 40 seconds.

Anyone know how I can stop this happening before I lose my mind ?

I tried pushing and holding the button for a while and testing it for a few seconds. It's working fine, but the constant pipping just continues.

Hoagy

New Part J, Heat producing appliances, can be downloaded here.

Gives the requirements for CO detectors. The whole thing is a worth a read.

This is the most relevant part for us:

1.5.2 Carbon monoxide alarms: Where a new or replacement open-flued or flueless combustion appliance, not designed solely for cooking purposes, is installed in a dwelling, a carbon monoxide (CO) alarm should be provided:
(a) in the room where the appliance is located, and
(b) either inside each bedroom or, within 5 m (16 ft.) of the bedroom door, measured
along the path of the corridor.

1.5.2.1 Where a system chimney is being used,with any heat producing appliance and the flue
passes within or over a habitable room,(whether encased or not), then a CO alarm
should be fitted in the room.

Tuco88

Does anybody know where to pick up a copy of the fire alarm regulations for Ireland, or what the name of it is exactly? Id imagine an copy would be useful.