Train ticket fine

ViP3r

Hey guys,

I'm in dire need of help. I travelled from Balbriggan to Malahide on a single way ticket to shopping with my friends. Afterward i was supposed to get a lift home from a friend. Unfortunately an emergency (roomate locked out) left me high and dry so i made my way to the train station to get home.

Heres where the fun starts!


The ticket office at malahide was shut. Ok, so your thinking 'No Prob! I'll just pop over to the standard issue ticket-machine available at all stations and purchase myself a ticket home!'

At which point the clever planning of Irish Rail and an inch of steel intervenes. Thats right, locked inside the now closed station. Moments later the train arrives, and figuring the ONLY way to get a ticket now is at the other end I get on.

Now I don't know if any of you guys have been through Balbriggan train station during weekday evenings, but steping of the train you will be confronted by a row of privately employed security men in luminous vests. These lovely chaps are here to check your ticket on Irish rails behalf. Fair enough.

So I approached the nearest one after disembarking and told him I needed to buy a ticket. Despite having explained that I was denied the opportunity to purchase a ticket initially, he demanded my personal details and issued me with a fine....of €100.

I tried to appeal this by email and was effectively told that having been there without a ticket, I was guilty.

I tried to appeal by phone and the woman I spoke to added the cost of the ticket onto the fine!?

I was completely polite and courteous in all of my correspondence with them, but to be completely honest every person I've dealt with has been bluntly rude.


Can anybody please help? I'm a student and I can't afford to pay this fine, I won't be able to pay the deposit on my diggs if I do!





PS: Does anybody know if they can fine that much? I thought it was only €50 as per the posters on the train?And what's the legislation permitting this?

monkeypants

Did you take any pictures of the station and how you couldn't get a ticket?

MIRMIR82

monkeypants wrote: »

Did you take any pictures of the station and how you couldn't get a ticket?

In fairness monkey pants who would have thought of it???

ViP3r

I've used the trains in England frequently and I'm used to buying a ticket from the inspector on the rare occasion this happened! never thought I would be treated that way.

It was like an ambush

Does anyone have a clue about dealing with these situations?

ViP3r

monkeypants wrote: »

Did you take any pictures of the station and how you couldn't get a ticket?

The machine w locked inside the station

godtabh

The signs every where that state dont board the train without a valid ticket probably didnt help matters!

Its difficult for an inspector. He has probably heard every story under the sun. It cant be one rule for you and another for every one else.

On occasion I've ended up getting a bus rather than a train because I couldnt get a ticket.

tricky D

ViP3r wrote: »

I tried to appeal this by email and was effectively told that having been there without a ticket, I was guilty.

I tried to appeal by phone and the woman I spoke to added the cost of the ticket onto the fine!?

Always correspond by regular letter in matters like these.

Try again by letter stating your case which id pretty damned unfair.

Also most stations have some sort of system for communicating with someone 'up the line', usually for safety purposes. I've used one on the LUAS when the ticket machines were not working. I later got 'caught' but let off when the inspector called to confirm that I had checked. Didn't even get charged for the fare.

F1ngers

Open to correction on this, but I always thought that once you stepped off the train, the inspectors could not tackle you looking for a ticket.
On the train yes, but once you get off you are no longer a passenger.

yoyo

F1ngers wrote: »

Open to correction on this, but I always thought that once you stepped off the train, the inspectors could not tackle you looking for a ticket.
On the train yes, but once you get off you are no longer a passenger.

Afaik the luas platform is also veolias property so they are entitled to

Nick

dermot_sheehan

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1984/en/si/0109.html

4. Where the Board gives notice that a station is unattended or the booking office is closed, or where any person is instructed by an authorised person to board a train at a station without purchasing a ticket at the booking office so as not to delay the departure of the train from the station, any person not in possession of a valid ticket entitling him or her to travel may enter a vehicle at that station for the purpose of travelling but that person must obtain a ticket or other authority from an authorised person on the train as soon as practicable after entering any vehicle or from an authorised person on arrival at the station to which such person is travelling by the train.

Victor

Ticket office closed -> no way to buy ticket -> no obligation to have ticket until you had an oppurtunity to buy one.

Write a nice, concise letter, rejecting the ticket letting them know they know that they are in the wrong.

Let us know if there are any further problems http://www.railusers.ie/about_us/contact_us.php or http://www.railusers.ie/forum/index.php

monkeypants

MIRMIR82 wrote: »

In fairness monkey pants who would have thought of it???

First thing I thought of. Most phones have cameras now so it's very easy to get photo evidence to back up your letter. If you can't get a pic of the machine, get a pic showing that the machine could not be reached.

ViP3r

What about the Terms and conditions?

When refusing my appeal, the manager said;

***** **** (IR Connolly)
Show details
Good afternoon
*
In relation to the fine issued, you had no valid ticket for your journey therefore fine was issued correctly.* The terms and conditions clearly state that it’s not permissible to board a service once a facility is available this has been the main tenet of our terms for some time. I may add that other passengers from Malahide were able to produce ticketing . Therefore in the circumstances the fine and fare must be discharged.
If the fine isn’t paid it will lead to a prosecution in the district court. Payment to my office is either by cheque/ postal order, made payable to Iarnród Éireann. Alternatively, you may pay by credit/laser card by telephoning the RPU at 01-7032461/01-7032530 between 0915-13.00 and 14.15-16.30 Monday to Friday
*
Regards,
*
*******
Manager
Revenue Protection Unit
Intercity& Commuter Network
Iarnrod Eireann
Connolly Station
Amiens Street
Dublin 1
T 003531-7032750 F003531-7034584

ViP3r

Or does the Secondary legislation override contract?

Our man in Havana

Let them take you to court.

ViP3r

Haddockman wrote: »

Let them take you to court.

I'd rather not, but I can't afford the fine...

Lab_Mouse

yoyo wrote: »

Afaik the luas platform is also veolias property so they are entitled to

Nick

Can they physically stop you leaving the platform?As then you could ignore them and walk off the platform

Our man in Havana

Yes. They have no powers to detain you.

questioner

I would imagine that they would have powers of detention similar to those of a shop security guard?

i agree that its a minor transgression and in my opinion the op has committed no offence. Also is the luas covered by the statute mentioned? is it mentioned specifically in the preamble? I havent looked but I'm guessing that if it isnt then employees coud detain you if they believe an offence has been committed. Is it a material fact that the luas is administered by a private company?

If the powers of ticket officers are not expressly provided for and limited by statute then their powers of detention are equivalent to those of shop security (and citizens in general for that matter). they cannot oblige you to answer questions, they may only detain you for the purposes of arrest by a member of AGS.

tenchi-fan

ViP3r wrote: »

What about the Terms and conditions?

When refusing my appeal, the manager said;

***** **** (IR Connolly)
Show details
Good afternoon
*
In relation to the fine issued, you had no valid ticket for your journey therefore fine was issued correctly.* The terms and conditions clearly state that it’s not permissible to board a service once a facility is available this has been the main tenet of our terms for some time. I may add that other passengers from Malahide were able to produce ticketing . Therefore in the circumstances the fine and fare must be discharged.
If the fine isn’t paid it will lead to a prosecution in the district court. Payment to my office is either by cheque/ postal order, made payable to Iarnród Éireann. Alternatively, you may pay by credit/laser card by telephoning the RPU at 01-7032461/01-7032530 between 0915-13.00 and 14.15-16.30 Monday to Friday
*
Regards,
*
*******
Manager
Revenue Protection Unit
Intercity& Commuter Network
Iarnrod Eireann
Connolly Station
Amiens Street
Dublin 1
T 003531-7032750 F003531-7034584

I did up a complaint letter for you!:

It does not concern me whether other customers on the train had a ticket. The fact remains that when I entered the station at x:00pm these facilities had not been available. I should have been given the option of paying for the ticket on boarding the train as per your T&Cs, however was fined/confronted/assaulted/molested* (delete as appropriate) instead causing me embarrassment and inconvenience.

Can you please verify whether the facility to purchase a ticket was available when I entered the station at x:00pm, in particular, whether the ticket office was open and whether the machines were accessible at this time. You may wish to check the CCTV footage as my solicitor may request this from you in the near future if this matter goes to court.

Please escalate this complaint to be fully investigated as a matter of urgency. I also expect an apology for the disgraceful treatment and terrible customer service I received.
-
You should also include terms such as "falsely imprisoned" and "assaulted" if any physical contact took place e.g. staff escorting you by the arm or putting their hand on your shoulder

FreudianSlippers

tenchi-fan wrote: »

I did up a complaint letter for you!:

It does not concern me whether other customers on the train had a ticket. The fact remains that when I entered the station at x:00pm these facilities had not been available. I should have been given the option of paying for the ticket on boarding the train as per your T&Cs, however was fined/confronted/assaulted/molested* (delete as appropriate) instead causing me embarrassment and inconvenience.

Can you please verify whether the facility to purchase a ticket was available when I entered the station at x:00pm, in particular, whether the ticket office was open and whether the machines were accessible at this time. You may wish to check the CCTV footage as my solicitor may request this from you in the near future if this matter goes to court.

Please escalate this complaint to be fully investigated as a matter of urgency. I also expect an apology for the disgraceful treatment and terrible customer service I received.
-
You should also include terms such as "falsely imprisoned" and "assaulted" if any physical contact took place e.g. staff escorting you by the arm or putting their hand on your shoulder

Not to be rude, but that letter is slightly on the passive-aggressive side IMO. Plus, I'm not sure how this sits with the forum charter.

tenchi-fan

OisinT wrote: »

Not to be rude, but that letter is slightly on the passive-aggressive side IMO. Plus, I'm not sure how this sits with the forum charter.

ok the letter's a bit tongue in cheek. it should be toned down a bit.

However, if things happened the way the op says they did then it's clear the manager did not adequately investigate the complaint. Therefore by insisting a fine must be paid or else they'd take him to court, you could easily argue that's an offense under the Non-Fatal Offences Against the Person Act, 1997

dermot_sheehan

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/act/pub/0031/sec0129.html#sec129

ViP3r

Thanks for all of the feedback guys, I responded:

I am very grateful for your reply. I would however like to remind you of my circumstances on the day of the fine. I was unable to purchase a ticket because the office was closed, furthermore I was denied the opportunity to purchase a valid ticket at the other end. May I also direct you to the Coras Iompair Éireann Bye-Laws (CONFIRMATION) ORDER, 1984. In particular Section 4.

"Where the Board gives notice that a station is unattended or the booking office is closed, or where any person is instructed by an authorised person to board a train at a station without purchasing a ticket at the booking office so as not to delay the departure of the train from the station, any person not in possession of a valid ticket entitling him or her to travel may enter a vehicle at that station for the purpose of travelling but that person must obtain a ticket or other authority from an authorised person on the train as soon as practicable after entering any vehicle or from an authorised person on arrival at the station to which such person is travelling by the train."

Accordingly the circumstances of my fine are covered within this section, and you are mistaken. I have sought advice from railusers.ie and I am aware that Iarnrod Eireann issued a statement to the community to the effect that people in my circumstances should not be fined.

I appreciate your terms and conditions are there to serve the public good, however in this instance I hope injustice may be avoided.

I await your response.

Kind regards,

*********

Victor

Ask for a copy of the CCTV at Malahide and a log of the ticket sales at that time.

monkeypants

ViP3r wrote: »

I may add that other passengers from Malahide were able to produce ticketing.

Push them on this point. How many passengers? When did they get their tickets? Other passengers aren't your concern, but when you approached the station at X time, no facility was provided to purchase a ticket.