Civil War Politics Alive and Well in Rural Ireland

RATM

Nice to see that when the economy is in the tank, unemployment heading for 14% and a true wave of emmigration about to really kick off that there is still time for some good old fashioned Civil War politics.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0812/1224276640421.html

A FINE Gael Senator has criticised the upcoming appearance of Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan at the annual Béal na mBláth commemoration of Michael Collins in west Cork.

In a letter in today’s Irish Times , Wexford-based Senator Liam Twomey says Mr Lenihan should not have been invited to become the first Fianna Fáil politician to deliver the oration at the event closely associated with Fine Gael on Sunday, August 22nd.

“I’m against the idea of a Fianna Fáil Minister addressing a Béal na mBláth event for Michael Collins. Béal na mBláth is almost the soul of Fine Gael. It’s recognising the sacrifice Michael Collins made for Ireland. It’s the heartland of what Fine Gael stands for,” Dr Twomey said.

“Nothing personal against Brian Lenihan; it’s just what he stands for. He’s a Fianna Fáil Government Minister. I do actually feel quite put out by the fact that a Fianna Fáil Minister is doing the Béalna mBláth ceremony.”

Well done Senator Twomey, besides the Enda Kenny debacle you've given me yet another reason not to vote FG at the next election. It's 2010 ffs.

Sundew

Wasn't Brian's Grandad a FG man and apparently his Granny told Brian Senior to join FF if he wanted to get get anywhere in life!

Maybe he is exorcising his inner FG

Liam Byrne

If the parties keep this crap up there'll be no-one to vote for.

FF & The Greens already written off for obvious reasons, FG acting the maggot like this, SF not yet completely free of their past and concerns about Labour's ties to the unions.

I give up!

Maybe we should just close Leinster House and let the country run itself ? It certainly can't do any worse!

Notorious97

I hate FF, and i cannot stand FG either, but there is no Irish man i respect as much as Michael Collins! I think they shouldnt be arguing over who delivers a speech in memory of this great man, w eare all irish at the end of the day, and the 22nd should simply be about remembering what Michael Collins (and the countless volunteers) done for our country regardless of political loyalties.

Wide Road

All politics is local. I've said it here before and no doubt someone will say it here again. Please note that the Senator wishes to become a TD.

mikemac

Other parties do much the same

No one party has a lock on Wolfe Tone and Bodenstown but FF and SF both make it a big event for their parties. Republican hero for both of them
No doubt if Kenny or Gilmore gave a speech I'd be reading pretty much the same article this morning

Denerick

Commemmoration services are an absolute disgrace anyway. Michael Collins was an intelligent man, do you really think he wouldn't have been able to see through the charlatans of the 1930s (Eoin O'Duffy leading the Blueshirts to the site) or the charlatans of the 000s? Honest to god...

Modern politicians raking over the past for instant political exploitation. Also hoping to manipulate people who are ignorant about history so that the historical figure can be pigeonholed as a modern day partisan of whatever irrelevant centrist party thinks it has a chance to win an election.

So. Bloody. Pathetic.

deise go deo

This kind of thing has always gone on.
Pearse spoke at O' Donavan Rossa's funeral. If Collins was alive today I have no doubt he would do the same thing. Its all part of Irish politics.

PeterIanStaker

They're great arent they? Pandering to the ignorant (including the media) and disputing the legacy of a man who is dead and existed in a very different era.

kev9100

It always pisses me off that FG love to say Michael Collins was one of them when in actual fact Michael Collins would have had nothing to do with either FG or CNG.

evenmicheal

Is sad really that civil war politics is alive and well. A certain percentage of the population will always vote Fianna Fail even though they have destroyed the country.

gandalf

It's quite pathetic that our politics today is dictated by events that happened nearly 90 years ago with two parties that apart from this should really be one political entity.

Denerick

kev9100 wrote: »

It always pisses me off that FG love to say Michael Collins was one of them when in actual fact Michael Collins would have had nothing to do with either FG or CNG.

Why wouldn't he have had anything to do with Cumann na Gdheadhal? He was the most important figure in the provisional government and those who went on to found the party all hailed from within his governing coalition. This point has no broader bearing on the overall thread, but thats a silly thing to say.

Liam Byrne

I've just read the Irish Examiner's report on this and it makes FG's stance a LOT more understandable and acceptable.

"What Brian Lenihan stands for" doesn't refer to FF.

It refers to the inequalities, waste and corruption which are undemocratic and unacceptable, and go against the republic and supposed equality of citizens.

Basically, a twist on the treason of FF that we heard about earlier in the year.

So in THAT context, fair play FG......I retract my earlier opposition, which was based on the thread title referring to "Civil War Politics".......and I'm disappointed at myself for not separating the pitch of the OP from the facts.

kev9100

Denerick wrote: »

Why wouldn't he have had anything to do with Cumann na Gdheadhal? He was the most important figure in the provisional government and those who went on to found the party all hailed from within his governing coalition. This point has no broader bearing on the overall thread, but thats a silly thing to say.

I must admit, I phrased that very poorly but what I meant to say was that if Collins had lived, he either would have put CNG on a very different course ideologically or set up a new party imho.

Wide Road

FG TD for Cork South-West Jim O'Keeffe passed the committee's invitation to Mr Lenihan in recent months. Mr Lenihan thought about the idea for a while and returned very enthuastic about the matter, Mr O'Keeffe said. (Liam may have to start scribbling again).

aDeener

love the op's dig at rural ireland, because yeah, thats the only place there is this type of carry on :rolleyes:

Denerick

aDeener wrote: »

love the op's dig at rural ireland, because yeah, thats the only place there is this type of carry on :rolleyes:

Well yes, frankly, it is. There isn't the same kind of parish pump nonsense in the city of Dublin. I'm speaking as a person hailing from a rural constituency which returned 3 Fianna Fáil TDs, none of whom were charismatic, intelligent, compassionate or even held the veneer of honesty.

aDeener

Denerick wrote: »

Well yes, frankly, it is. There isn't the same kind of parish pump nonsense in the city of Dublin. I'm speaking as a person hailing from a rural constituency which returned 3 Fianna Fáil TDs, none of whom were charismatic, intelligent, compassionate or even held the veneer of honesty.

there isn't people who vote a certain way because of family tradition in dublin? right, yeah.



who were the TD's?

RATM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I've just read the Irish Examiner's report on this and it makes FG's stance a LOT more understandable and acceptable.

"What Brian Lenihan stands for" doesn't refer to FF.

It refers to the inequalities, waste and corruption which are undemocratic and unacceptable, and go against the republic and supposed equality of citizens.

Basically, a twist on the treason of FF that we heard about earlier in the year.

So in THAT context, fair play FG......I retract my earlier opposition, which was based on the thread title referring to "Civil War Politics".......and I'm disappointed at myself for not separating the pitch of the OP from the facts.

Wrong. You read the article and you took from it the facts that suited you. Because if you re-read the article in the Examiner you'll see the byline going as

BRIAN LENIHAN should not address the annual Michael Collins commemoration in Béal na mBláth because Fianna Fáil’s predecessors murdered Mr Collins, a Fine Gael senator has said.

Liam Twomey, Fine Gael finance spokesman in the Seanad, has criticised the decision to invite Mr Lenihan to deliver the address at the August 22 event.

Mr Twomey said it was wrong for a Fianna Fáil minister to address what is traditionally regarded as a Fine Gael event.

Fianna Fáil’s predecessors in the anti-treaty camp during the civil war "murdered Michael Collins", he said.

Despite this, Mr Twomey said his opposition to Mr Lenihan’s address was "not about civil war politics" but about "ideals of government" and the beliefs of Michael Collins.

Now just because the Senator then went on to critisise FF on grounds of corruption, morality etc does not mean he isn't using Civil War Politics to achieve his aim. He clearly states that Fianna Fail's predecessors "murdered Michael Collins".

The very fact that Sen. Twomey saying afterwards that his oppostion to Lenihans address was "not about civil war politics" just smacks of doublespeak. On the one hand he says FF'ers murdered Collins then he almost instantaneously talks out of the other side of his mouth and says this isn't about civil war politics. It's akin to the racist who begins sentences with the old 'I'm not racist, but....'.

Those are the facts Liam, just because you choose to ignore them doesn't make them any less so.

Wide Road

Liam Byrne thinks Mr Twomey's letter to the Times was a FG statement. It's just Twomey's own opinion because FG TD Jim O'Keeffe invited Brian Lenihan to speak months ago. Lay off Liam because judging on another thread, he's having a really bad time on these boards.

RATM

aDeener wrote: »

love the op's dig at rural ireland, because yeah, thats the only place there is this type of carry on :rolleyes:

For starters it wasn't 'a dig' at rural Ireland, merely a statement that this type of politics still goes on in rural Ireland.

In either case you can't for one minute tell me that the vast majority of civil war politics that goes on in this country doesn't happen outside of Dublin. The very fact that Labour and the Greens do better in Dublin than the rest of the county is testament to that. They don't even bother running candidates in many rural constituencies because they recognise the fact that people in those constituencies vote along FF/FG civil war lines and will never change from that.

Wide Road

RATM wrote: »

For starters it wasn't 'a dig' at rural Ireland, merely a statement that this type of politics still goes on in rural Ireland.

In either case you can't for one minute tell me that the vast majority of civil war politics that goes on in this country doesn't happen outside of Dublin. The very fact that Labour and the Greens do better in Dublin than the rest of the county is testament to that. They don't even bother running candidates in many rural constituencies because they recognise the fact that people in those constituencies vote along FF/FG civil war lines and will never change from that.

Isn't Eamon Gilmore going to run at least one Labour candidate in each constituency at the next election?

aDeener

RATM wrote: »

For starters it wasn't 'a dig' at rural Ireland, merely a statement that this type of politics still goes on in rural Ireland.

In either case you can't for one minute tell me that the vast majority of civil war politics that goes on in this country doesn't happen outside of Dublin. The very fact that Labour and the Greens do better in Dublin than the rest of the county is testament to that. They don't even bother running candidates in many rural constituencies because they recognise the fact that people in those constituencies vote along FF/FG civil war lines and will never change from that.

of course it goes on in rural ireland, it goes on everywhere, that's my point. - how have dublin politicians repeatedly gotten re-elected despite incompetence, cronyism and all the other buzz words?

i wouldn't exactly be championing dublin for their voting in of the greens now either.

Liam Byrne

RATM wrote: »

Wrong. You read the article and you took from it the facts that suited you. Because if you re-read the article in the Examiner you'll see the byline going as

For the record - it wasn't "reading the facts that suited me", I missed that byline.

But point taken.

RATM wrote: »

It's akin to the racist who begins sentences with the old 'I'm not racist, but....'.

Seems fair and apt (the parallel, not the comment)

RATM wrote: »

Those are the facts Liam, just because you choose to ignore them doesn't make them any less so.

As I said, I didn't choose to ignore them, although that does appear to be a common tactic here on boards.

dan_d

Many Dublin communities are made up of people who are originally from rural Ireland, so where does that leave us?

While I take the OP's point, he (she?) does highlight the divide between Dublin and the rest of the country. this whole "us and them" idea. And again - as I've said before repeatedly - the ridiculousness of the Irish voting system. To get into gov you should have to present yourself as a candidate to the COUNTRY, not your local town. Asides from anything else, it may reduce this urban/rural divide, because people from Donegal to Kerry would be just as responsible for the presence of a candidate in Gov, as those in Dublin.

Our system may have served us well in the past, but I think it's quite clear at this stage that it's outdated and no longer works. It needs to be changed.

aDeener

dan_d wrote: »

Many Dublin communities are made up of people who are originally from rural Ireland, so where does that leave us?

While I take the OP's point, he (she?) does highlight the divide between Dublin and the rest of the country. this whole "us and them" idea. And again - as I've said before repeatedly - the ridiculousness of the Irish voting system. To get into gov you should have to present yourself as a candidate to the COUNTRY, not your local town. Asides from anything else, it may reduce this urban/rural divide, because people from Donegal to Kerry would be just as responsible for the presence of a candidate in Gov, as those in Dublin.

Our system may have served us well in the past, but I think it's quite clear at this stage that it's outdated and no longer works. It needs to be changed.

many rural communities are made of people who are originally from dublin, so where does that leave us?

Liam Byrne

dan_d wrote: »

While I take the OP's point, he (she?) does highlight the divide between Dublin and the rest of the country. this whole "us and them" idea.

Remind us again what constituency voted in Ray Burke, Bertie Ahern and Liam Lawlor ?

dan_d

aDeener wrote: »

many rural communities are made of people who are originally from dublin, so where does that leave us?

In a position where there's no point saying the OP is digging at rural communities.

Liam....look, this is a pointless argument. Last I checked, the Gov and it's individual members are governing the entire country. And illustrates exactly why our voting system needs to change. I mean for every Bertie Ahern and Ray Burke, there's a Jackie Healy Rae and a Beverly Cooper-Flynn. It doesn't matter who or where voted them in. The bigger picture is that our voting system is parochial and needs to change.

And you cannot deny that there is a divide between Dublin and the rest of the country. Why do you seem to think it's a bad thing that this divide could be closed by a new system? We need to start viewing Ireland as a whole, not in sections.

RATM

Wide Road wrote: »

Isn't Eamon Gilmore going to run at least one Labour candidate in each constituency at the next election?

Thats his stated plan alright on the basis of the recent polling results. However running a candidate takes alot more than just putting him on a ticket- it means the candidate must have a machine behind him/her who are willing to knock the doors and go up the poles. I'd say Labour will run more candidates than usual but would be surprised if they actually run one in every constituency.

aDeener wrote: »

of course it goes on in rural ireland, it goes on everywhere, that's my point. - how have dublin politicians repeatedly gotten re-elected despite incompetence, cronyism and all the other buzz words?

i wouldn't exactly be championing dublin for their voting in of the greens now either.

I'm not going to get into the Greens performance on this thread, there's another one on the go for that- but would you concede that civil war politics is something that is more accentuated outside of Dublin?

Liam Byrne wrote: »

For the record - it wasn't "reading the facts that suited me", I missed that byline.

But point taken.



Seems fair and apt (the parallel, not the comment)



As I said, I didn't choose to ignore them, although that does appear to be a common tactic here on boards.

Sorry Liam I wasn't trying to have a dig at you (and apologise if thats the way it seemed because it does to me upon re-reading). You are right though, a common (and very annoying tactic) on these boards is to throw out factual arguments to other posters who then just pick and choose the points they feel like they can defend and ignore those they know they can't rebut.

But what annoyed me about the Senators comments was his use of civil war politics to make his point. There was absolutely no need to make that 'FF are murderers' comment if he wished to attack Lenihan on what he stood for. He could just attacked him on FF's recent performance alone and that would have sufficed.
If our politicans can't move on from the events of nearly one hundred years ago how are the people ever supposed to? Its sad really, we give out about the Orange men celebrating a 300 year old war yet we do the exact same ourselves with the civil war. The younger generations are sick of this crap and FF/FG pandering to it will only drive their votes into the hands of a grateful Labour and Greens.

dan_d wrote: »

Our system may have served us well in the past, but I think it's quite clear at this stage that it's outdated and no longer works. It needs to be changed.

I'd agree with you there Dan. PR-STV has created a system of localism and clientalism whereby a politican has to even compete against his own party colleagues as well as other parties. This means our TDs spend an inordinate amount of time going to funerals, cutting red tapes, etc when their time would be better spent legislating on national issues. In many ways the problem is also cultural, there's a distrust of the state amongst citizens and TDs are seen as the buffer for that distrust.

But the sad thing is despite all the crises we've seen not one party has issued a concrete plan about how they are going to go about changing the electoral system. I really feel it vitally necessary or else we're just going to be always on the same vicious circle of gombeen politics based on anti and pro-treaty stances.

Mr.Applepie

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Remind us again what constituency voted in Ray Burke, Bertie Ahern and Liam Lawlor ?

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos!

I do agree with you, Dublin is just as bad as rural Ireland. It appears that the people of this country elect TD's based on their ability to get things done in local government rather than their stances on national issues.

Sergeant

Slightly off-topic, but my Grandfather told me a story of a time when he was canvassing for a FG TD in the early 50's in a rural part of Ireland.
They approached one particular rural cottage, and were greeted by an elderly lady. They said who they were, and promised an indoor toilet for the house if she gave a vote to the politician in question.

Her response was "I'd rather shíte in a bucket than vote for FG".



As Gandalf mentioned earlier, allowing the events of 90 years ago to still dictate political life in this country is a rather sad portrayal of us as a people.

mikemac

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Remind us again what constituency voted in Ray Burke, Bertie Ahern and Liam Lawlor ?

True but one point on this.
Liam Lawlor entered the Dail in 1977 and realy, Lucan and West Dublin was a rural area back then.

Not correcting you, both the cities and rural area elect their own share of dodgy TDs.

Just West Dublin only became urbanized in the last decade or two

Liam Byrne

RATM wrote: »

But the sad thing is despite all the crises we've seen not one party has issued a concrete plan about how they are going to go about changing the electoral system. I really feel it vitally necessary or else we're just going to be always on the same vicious circle of gombeen politics based on anti and pro-treaty stances.

Sad but true.

It's the same reason that no party has genuinely fixed the expenses issue, or accountability, or anything else.......because of those who are in power, most would lose out and those few who are ethical - should they rock the boat - would be ostracised.

While FF are the worst, FG aren't exactly clamouring for openness and transparency, bar the odd words-only opposition on issues like holidays.....they talk the talk, and then feck off for the summer laughing and joking.

We need decent, ethical and competent people in politics, and at the moment the only option I could vote for is "the best of a bad lot".

While that might be "an improvement", it's nowhere near good enough.

nuac

Seantor Tuomey was quoted in papers today commenting on Brian Lenihans health and again objecting to his presence at Béal na Bláth on political grounds.

I see from earlier posts here that Brian Lenihan was invited by Jim O'Keefe T.D. Along with being a FG TD of long service Jim is, I believe, related to Michael Collins. An invitation from him should have been good enough to satisfy Senator Tuomey who is a comparatively recent recruit to FG.

rightwingdub

Yawn yawn civil war politics:mad:

The country is teetering on the edge of bankruptcy and yet there are probably 45-50% of the electorate who will vote FF or FG no matter how incompetent they are. I was speaking to a woman in her 50's a couple of weeks, she was ranting about FF and the banks, I then asked her who does she intend to vote for in the next election.

She said "I'll still vote FF till the day I die, my mother would turn in her grave if I voted for any other party". I called her an idiot and told her to get a mind of her own, thats how peeved off I was with her.

goose2005

aDeener wrote: »

of course it goes on in rural ireland, it goes on everywhere, that's my point. - how have dublin politicians repeatedly gotten re-elected despite incompetence, cronyism and all the other buzz words?

Actually Lawlor, Burke and Haughey didn't stand for election after their corruption was fully revealed, while both Callely and Bertie's brother lost. Compare with Michael Lowry, who tops the poll in Tipp North despite a £395,000 bribe from Ben Dunne.

rightwingdub

In last weeks Sindo Marc Coleman was calling for a FF-FG government, I agree with him, I don't want Labour within an asses roar of government.

Liam Byrne

rightwingdub wrote: »

In last weeks Sindo Marc Coleman was calling for a FF-FG government, I agree with him, I don't want Labour within an asses roar of government.

I don't want FF within an asses roar of government, and if FG (or Labour) lie down with that particular devil then we may as well pack up and leave, because it will be proof positive that there isn't an ounce of ethics in any party.

Qualitymark

The Civil War should never have happened - it was a tragedy. And of course it's right that Lenihan should speak at the commemoration of Michael Collins.

Wish they'd stop misspelling Beal na Blath though. That 'm' is incorrect - Blath isn't flowers, but (in Irish) bPlath, plath being an old word for an inlet.

rightwingdub

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I don't want FF within an asses roar of government, and if FG (or Labour) lie down with that particular devil then we may as well pack up and leave, because it will be proof positive that there isn't an ounce of ethics in any party.

So I can take it Liam you'll be voting FF in the next election:rolleyes:

deanh

goose2005 wrote: »

Actually Lawlor, Burke and Haughey didn't stand for election after their corruption was fully revealed, while both Callely and Bertie's brother lost. Compare with Michael Lowry, who tops the poll in Tipp North despite a £395,000 bribe from Ben Dunne.

Fair point, but there were widespread rumours about them and they were still re-elected by Dublin voters. Haughey had had his arms trial. Terry Keane was writing about Sweetie every week in the Sindo plus there were question marks over how he was able to afford 'Abbeyvile' in Kinsealy and its associated lifestyle including stables, yachts, off-shore island etc on the 'modest' income of an accountant and back-bench T.D. in the 1960s/ 1970s. Lawlor was known to be involved in suspicious property deals while Burke had been up every tree in Dublin to investigate ( just not those he had removed after the by -election in Dublin West in 1982.) That story is a good reminder that F.F. has always been involved in stroke politics, just some voters prefer to ignore the reality.

Wide Road

deanh wrote: »

Fair point, but there were widespread rumours about them and they were still re-elected by Dublin voters. Haughey had had his arms trial. Terry Keane was writing about Sweetie every week in the Sindo plus there were question marks over how he was able to afford 'Abbeyvile' in Kinsealy and its associated lifestyle including stables, yachts, off-shore island etc on the 'modest' income of an accountant and back-bench T.D. in the 1960s/ 1970s. Lawlor was known to be involved in suspicious property deals while Burke had been up every tree in Dublin to investigate ( just not those he had removed after the by -election in Dublin West in 1982.) That story is a good reminder that F.F. has always been involved in stroke politics, just some voters prefer to ignore the reality.

Can you tell us why you didn't mention Mr Lowry?

deanh

Wide Road wrote: »

Can you tell us why you didn't mention Mr Lowry?

If you checked you would read that I was responding to the previous post from Goose 2005 dated 14/08/10 that did mention him and I acknowledged that it was a fair point about the voters in North Tipp electing him despite the tribunal. I was also pointing out that Dublin voters couldn't claim to be entirly ignorant of the misdeeds of Haughey, Burke e.t.c yet they still re-elected him. Hope that clarifies things for you.

Wide Road

deanh wrote: »

If you checked you would read that I was responding to the previous post from Goose 2005 dated 14/08/10 that did mention him and I acknowledged that it was a fair point about the voters in North Tipp electing him despite the tribunal. I was also pointing out that Dublin voters couldn't claim to be entirly ignorant of the misdeeds of Haughey, Burke e.t.c yet they still re-elected him. Hope that clarifies things for you.

The people of TN couldn't be entirly ignorant of Mr Lowry either. "Fair Point".

aDeener

goose2005 wrote: »

Actually Lawlor, Burke and Haughey didn't stand for election after their corruption was fully revealed, while both Callely and Bertie's brother lost. Compare with Michael Lowry, who tops the poll in Tipp North despite a £395,000 bribe from Ben Dunne.

and what of b-b-b bertie?