Construction/builders drawings

confused....

Hi Everyone

I am getting conflicting advice as to whether i need the above or not. We have just received planning based on our architects cad drawings but some people have said that we will need these to be converted into "builders drawings" as we are going down the direct labour road, in order for them to be priced correctly by the various contractors?

Would a good bill of quantities do for this? or do we need them and if yes who does these, Engineer, QS, etc. Finally if i need them i'd appreciate any recommendations, we're based in Cork

Thanks

muffler

Moved to the main C & P forum.

braftery

The devil is in the detail of any job .. and more than most in building a house !!

the more detail you have on your drawings the less room for misunderstanding exists.

In the current climate, every builder and subbie is pricing jobs very keenly to try to secure the work. If there is not a clear spec and instruction of the work expected and they can price a cheaper method of doing it alot of the time they will and then you will not be pricing apples with apples.

A good BoQ is essential for pricing, but if you can get drawings that make things crystal clear for the sub-contractors then there is no room for arguing if they dont follow the drawings !

the more prep you can do for your build the less chance of expensive mistakes happening later.

Mike2006

It also depends on your method of construction.

If you are going with block you will need a set of construction drawings or else the builder will be constantly asking you for dimensions.

If you go timberframe, the timberframe company will develop a full set of construction drawings based on your design drawings and these will need to be signed off by you prior to finalising the design with them.

Mike.

No6

confused.... wrote: »

Hi Everyone

I am getting conflicting advice as to whether i need the above or not. We have just received planning based on our architects cad drawings but some people have said that we will need these to be converted into "builders drawings" as we are going down the direct labour road, in order for them to be priced correctly by the various contractors?

Would a good bill of quantities do for this? or do we need them and if yes who does these, Engineer, QS, etc. Finally if i need them i'd appreciate any recommendations, we're based in Cork

Thanks

Firstly who is supervising and certifing your build? If it is your architect they should be able to produce a set of working drawings if required for a suitable fee of course.. I would not reccomend getting a full bill of quantities done when you are going direct as each trade will only do their own section of it. Have you considered going down the contractor route, I have found good general contractors are pricing very keenly around me at the moment and are comparable in price to going direct. In addition using a contractor also allows much better quality control and will make it easier to achieve the standards of workmanship now required under the regulations particurarly Part L (the energy one!!) If you are doing a raft foundation you will also need structural drawings prepared by a structural engineer

imitation

I would get a good set done if your going direct labour, planning drawings just dont have enough information for block layers. I came a cropper of a small mistake in building drawings that meant I would have had a ugly stub wall in one part of my house except it was noticed in time

Depending on the design of the house there might be structural things that need to be sorted too, like sizings of steel.

Id also echo No6 on the contractor thing, he'll keep the trades in line, and a good contractor can make great suggestions and tweaks during the build. You may save a fair chunk of money, but the way I see it is as another job, it would be a lot of work if your already in a full time job.

No6

It of course depends on how good you planning drawings are!! If you have a well dimensioned set of drawings with a good spec it is totally possible to build of them, if you have generic poorly dimensioned and detailed drawings then get more detail!!!

mr_edge_to_you

Our builder was more than happy to work off the planning drawings. We tweaked a few small things along the way and there was issue. My father in law who was overseeing things for us said if can't build a house off the plans well then he wouldn't trust him to build the house. In saying that if I had the money I wouldn't loved to have a set of construction drawings done up with weekly visits from the supervising engineer but by the time we'd started we'd spent more than enough on professional fees.

confused....

Hi Guys

Thanks for all the advice, Our architect didnt want to do them and was looking for crazy money 2k! but i managed to get a recommendation for a guy who will do them for 500 so going to go with that,
Think i'd be happier just to have them so i can follow the build more closely

Cheers

JuniorB

I paid more than 2k for my detailed drawings ..:)

braftery

€2k seems like a very reasonable price for a set of detailed construction drawings.

The architect on our house prepared over 500 construction detail drawings, this was before changes started to happen on the site. He had designed the house and was then supervising the complete build, so I dont know what he would have charged for the construction drawings only .. but I think it would have been more than €2k and worth every penny !

clint_eastman

braftery wrote: »

€2k seems like a very reasonable price for a set of detailed construction drawings.

The architect on our house prepared over 500 construction detail drawings, this was before changes started to happen on the site. He had designed the house and was then supervising the complete build, so I dont know what he would have charged for the construction drawings only .. but I think it would have been more than €2k and worth every penny !

Wow, is this a typo?

Anyway, I would suggest that most AT's that I know would carry out a set of construction drawings for €500 cash, assuming the CAD drawings are already available. Unless you have some complicated detailing which may then push up the cost. This would of course be separate to any certification deal you have going on.

On my own house, I heavily detailed the drawings myself in terms of dimensions and layout but didn't see the need for the really detailed specs that would be completed for a full set of construction drawings, given that I would be closely managing the job and advising the trades on individual details. This approach is not advisable unless you have a pretty good level of construction knowledge.

Like anything, quotes such as €2k can be justified, but you just need to get an understanding of what you are getting for the cost.

braftery

lol ... if you mean 500 drawings .. then no this is not a typo.

The easiest example i can give is that of another thread ... about DPC for outside step

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055993882

... this is a detail drawing that should be done for every building ... and was for mine ..

of course all the details can be worked out as you go along but with the usage of alot of new technologies and new standards .. it is worthwhile gathering the information and working through the integration of these materials in advance .. getting drawings done, that way the guys on site are not scratching their heads wondering how to do it and charging you while they wonder !

confused....

All

Just letting you know, we met our Draftsman today to discuss our drawings and couldnt be happier,
He pointed out a few very valid design improvements( mainly to do improving the energy rating of the house) advised on details such as cavity wall, additional floor pipe, boiler insulation etc and will work them into a detailed set of construction drawings for us for a total sum of 700.00
He reckons that he'll have it for us early next week and Im sorry but 2k seems very expensive for what he feels would be 4/5 hours work now that he has our brief.

Found it very useful especially for those of us going self build...

dan_d

The more details you have the better.

It means you are less likely to get to areas such as window/wall interfaces, or tricky corners, and have your builder looking at it and saying "what do you want here?", followed by you describing what you'd like, your builder giving you a few ways to do it, and the end result costing you more money. Hash the details out before you begin, that way the price you receive will be more accurate and you're less likely to overrun the budget.

De.Lite.Touch

confused.... wrote: »

All

Just letting you know, we met our Draftsman today to discuss our drawings and couldnt be happier,
He pointed out a few very valid design improvements( mainly to do improving the energy rating of the house) advised on details such as cavity wall, additional floor pipe, boiler insulation etc and will work them into a detailed set of construction drawings for us for a total sum of 700.00
He reckons that he'll have it for us early next week and Im sorry but 2k seems very expensive for what he feels would be 4/5 hours work now that he has our brief.

Found it very useful especially for those of us going self build...

He could probably pull it together in a day if he has standard details to work from.

The real thing is to have a long chat with a good insulation company like Kingspan and make sure all the "bits" meet their value requirements.

No use having a set of drawings that are well-laid out and presented with loads of information on them if theyr're wrong.

Has he done you a schedule of all the doors and windows, the electrics/plug points/lighting layout, radiator positions, hot press location and boiler sizing, water tank location and sizing and given you a good set of details for the eaves, heads, jambs, and thresholds that are all compliant?

€500 sounds a bit light for all that work, but you never know.

De.Lite.Touch

sinnerboy

To produce a set of documents which comprehensively describes the works takes time and therefore money . In brief the documents should cover -

siteworks including boundary treatments ( gates fences railings walls ) ,
foul and surface water drainage , landscaping ( footpaths , driveway , deckings , planting ) ,
floor and roof plans , elevations , sections together with 1/10 or 1/5 detailing of all key junctions ,
window schedule ,
heating and electrical layouts ,
a works specification which not only describes the works but outlines the contractual context under which the works will be executed - paying particular attention to pc + Provisional sums .
And last but not least DEAP calculations 1. to show compliance with Part L and 2. to form the basis upon which to advise on how to comply with Renewables Part L in particular .

The time required to produce the appropriate documentation for a one off house amounts to about 1 man-month i.e. 8 hours x 5 days X 4 weeks = 160 hours . I say this having spent many , many years doing so . So a "one man band" charging €25/hour would total up €4000.

I am an AT - so I would say the following . If you don't spend this time and money before the works start - you WILL spend it over and over again during the works in the form of extras and delays . You will come to understand what you failed to pay for before the works - during the works .

FesterBeatty

You need (assuming you want the job done correctly) architectural drawings and structural drawings. BOQ can be prepared on this basis.

joe kavnagh

No6 wrote: »

It of course depends on how good you planning drawings are!! If you have a well dimensioned set of drawings with a good spec it is totally possible to build of them, if you have generic poorly dimensioned and detailed drawings then get more detail!!!

I agree ............. and nowadays most architects i know have an engineer revise their drawings before submitting them if they need specifications of steel members or loads as that is not an architects job
...........new software i use in the engineering field is only out a few years replacing cad is called Rivet and this make all this simple as it drawind all plan elevations and 3d images in one go and also quantifies everything. if u ask an engineer or architech who uses this to u drawing is should be no more expensive as it is faster to use that traditional methods. all i will leave u with is ur decisions on finishes, these can be agreed with contractors if going down the direct labour route. ......0n the bill of quantities my advise would be no if u are going down the direct labour route as it is usesless......just gives u a guide of expenditure

twce

Hi,

I am new to the board and would like to comment on the fact that construction drawings should be commissioned if you want the project completed properly. You should also consider looking into having an inspection regime in place for the build as well.
To have any construction work completed correctly it is vital that you appoint somebody who is qualified to undertake this at all levels and has relevant PI insurance and relevant experience. Not all Architects or Engineers are fully qualified and neither do they all have the correct relevant experience or have the necessary insurances in place. Likewise not all builders are qualified or have the relevant experience to undertake the building work in question or have insurances in place.

There are changes coming in relation to the building regulations which will stop the nonsense of what is happening at the moment where people are being mis led by builders and inadequately qualified so called professionals for building work to properties especially in relation to non appointment of qualified professionals. An analogy would you have a filling or root canal treatment undetaken by a junior dentist or the technician. Another would be having open heart surgery undertaken by an consultant specialising in ENT. Ie you would not do it to your body so why do it to your house.

From a personal viewpoint we have a semi constant steam of work relating to such issues where we are being asked to go in and provide opinion of compliance certification for works undetaken by either builders claiming no supervision / construction drawings are needed or people who have commisioned so called professionals to undertake the construction drawings and then find they cannot obtain any certification from them. It always comes as shock then to the relevant owner when we have to undetake opening up works or testing to see what was done and in some cases look for remedial works that can sometimes cost considerable sums of money.

Banks and lenders are becoming more stingent when lending out for mortgages as are solicitors as they realise that they should be seeking this information per course rather than what happened during the 'tiger' years and changes to the building regulations as noted above will place a more regulated approach to this as well.

Ah there you go my first rant over.

Please people be realistic and <SNIP> get at least two other quotes from adequately qualified poeple offering the same service and whoever you choose please make proper background checks.

<SNIP>

DOCARCH

<SNIP>

:rolleyes:

johnny_adidas

braftery wrote: »

The architect on our house prepared over 500 construction detail drawings, this was before changes started to happen on the site.

Are you serious? Is this just reams of standard details or actual ones specific to your house?

braftery

johnny_adidas wrote: »

Are you serious? Is this just reams of standard details or actual ones specific to your house?

Yes I am serious. All specific to our build. I am sure some of them are standard details that our architect uses regularly but as the build went on and issues came up on site, the details were redrawn and agreed prior to the work being carried.

In my experience, every project has its own detail requirements that are based on the method, timing of build process, final envelope details, etc.

Even if you don't have a professional draw them up, at the very least they should be sketched out and agreed by the client / main contractor / sub contractor .. and all of them should take into account the full envelope of the building.