Dangerous/Careless driving and using a mobile phone

dunna

My partner was pulled over yesterday for using her phone while driving.
She had just changed from the left to the right lane on a dual carriageway and was then pulled over!
She was stopped by a guard in an unmarked car and was not in uniform.
The guard went on to explain that he was summonsing her for using the mobile phone (fair enough-2 points-this I understand!) and for dangerous AND careless driving.
She was not speeding and used indicators etc and didn't see anything careless about her driving (apart from the fact she was on the phone!)
The guard in question was very cross and before he left he said 'u'll be lucky if I don't get you off the road for two years!!!'.
I understand the two points for using the mobile phone but im confused about the dangerous and careless driving part? Are these two separete convictions? Can you recieve points for dangerous AND careless driving or should she expect to recieve a letter re a court appearance and then get a fine? What are the chances of her actually loosing her licence?
She is extremely worried as she drives for a living. Any help would be GREATLY appreciated

Improbable

As far as I'm aware, they are indeed two separate charges. The mobile phone bit is easy enough, it is a fixed charge offence of €60 and the 2 penalty points. I don't think it counts as a conviction if you pay the fine though. This all came in in September of 2006.
The dangerous driving would be a separate charge that could result in a driving ban if she is convicted. I'd get in touch with the RSA and talk to them about it.

Delancey

Improbable wrote: »

The dangerous driving would be a separate charge that could result in a driving ban if she is convicted. I'd get in touch with the RSA and talk to them about it.

Forgive what may be a ' dense ' question - but what can the RSA ( Road Safety Authority ) possibly do in this situation ?

Improbable

They wouldnt be doing anything but they would have more accurate information than I can provide with regards to the specifics of the situation.

dunna

Thanks for your replies!
Good idea improbable!
I was just browsing the RSA's website re penalty points!
According to that there could be up to FIVE points issued for careless driving and two points for using the mobile phone!
Jeee thats ALOT of points!
Thanks for all your suggestions! Any other suggestions comments much appreciated! (she's actually walking the floors and can't sleep with worry!:( )

FreudianSlippers

Not to put a damper on the situation, but I'm not sure what RSA is going to do for you (read: nothing they can do).

Using a mobile phone while driving is a serious matter now and is a big cause of accidents up there with drink driving.

The careless driving therefore makes quite a bit of sense:

Section 50 Road Traffic Act, 1968
(1) A person shall not drive a vehicle in a public place without due care and attention.
(2) A person who contravenes subsection (1) of this section shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds or, at the discretion of the court, to imprisonment for any term not exceeding three months or to both such fine and such imprisonment."

IMO this should always accompany using the phone while driving (how can you drive with due care and attention if you're using the phone?) and it may be difficult to talk your way out of this one.

The dangerous driving aspect may be a bit severe, but while your partner may think that she was not driving dangerously, the Garda may feel differently and has to prove the following:

Road Traffic Act, 1961

53.—(1) A person shall not drive a vehicle in a public place at a speed or in a manner which, having regard to all the circumstances of the case (including the nature, condition and use of the place and the amount of traffic which then actually is or might reasonably be expected then to be therein) is dangerous to the public.

(2) A person who contravenes subsection (1) of this section shall be guilty of an offence and—
( a ) in case the contravention causes death or serious bodily harm to another person, he shall be liable on conviction on indictment to penal servitude for any term not exceeding five years or, at the discretion of the court, to a fine not exceeding five hundred pounds or to both such penal servitude and such fine and
( b ) in any other case, he shall be liable on such conviction to a fine not exceeding one hundred pounds or, at the discretion of the court, to imprisonment for any term not exceeding six months or to both such fine and such imprisonment.

(3) In a prosecution for an offence under this section, it shall not be a defence to prove that the speed at which the accused person was driving was not in excess of an ordinary, built-up area or special speed limit applying in relation to the vehicle.

Also, a lot may also depend on what your partner's driving record is like to date.

MagicSean

Is your partner sure she didn't cut across the Garda car when she changed lanes. Sounds possible going by the reaction of the Garda. As far as I know you only get points for one offence, the one with the most points.

Reloc8

K Mac is correct regarding the points.

Dunna - bans for careless driving are relatively rare, bans for dangerous are common. Where you're charged with dangerous the judge dealing with it has a discretion to reduce it down to careless. Sometimes this can be agreed with the garda prosecuting. Your partner needs a decent solicitor - badly handled, there could be a ban here. The two years mentioned is probably a wee bit over-stated but then you don't know what evidence the garda will give of the nature of the driving which took place - and you wern't there yourself so its between the garda and your partner.

You ask specifically whether she should expect to receive a letter re court appearance; in fact she will just get a summons with a court date on it at some point in the future (potentially 3 to 9 months later).

Just on one technical aspect (this is not legal advice) if she gets a fixed penalty notice for using the phone you would want to know whether a summons is in the pipeline for the driving - the points operate on the basis of getting the higher applicable to any multiple offences but off the top of my head that is on the basis that all are dealt with together - in other words if she gets a penalty notice for using her phone speak to a solicitor before doing anything with it.

You mention her concern about losing her license - forget internet forums - get to a solicitor.

Mr. Presentable

dunna wrote: »

She had just changed from the left to the right lane on a dual carriageway and was then pulled over!
:

Was she overtaking? It doesn't say she was, and this may be contributing.

Kintarō Hattori

OP why doesn't she have a bluetooth headset or a handsfree setup in her car? I can't understand in this day and age why people still risk penalty points when these devices are freely and cheaply available.

Mr. Presentable

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

OP why doesn't she have a bluetooth headset or a handsfree setup in her car? I can't understand in this day and age why people still risk penalty points when these devices are freely and cheaply available.

Can't text handsfree? OP doesn't actually say what function of the phone was being used!

FreudianSlippers

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

Can't text handsfree? OP doesn't actually say what function of the phone was being used!

My phone has talk to text and works with bluetooth built in my car.

Regardless, talking on the phone is one thing - but texting is ridiculous, IMO that should be a ban!

seamus

dunna wrote: »

She was not speeding and used indicators etc and didn't see anything careless about her driving (apart from the fact she was on the phone!)

Well this is thing isn't it. If she'd been aware that what she was doing was dangerous, she wouldn't have been driving dangerously.

What I mean is that it's likely that she pulled out in front of or across another vehicle without even spotting it. The Garda then pulled her over, and being completely oblivious to what she'd done, she has no idea what was dangerous about her driving.
If she panicked when the Garda came to talk to her, she may have missed exactly what he said, so he may have told her what she did, but all she could hear was "dangerous driving" ringing in her head and she missed it.

As OisinT points out, I wouldn't be surprised if a charge of careless driving goes hand-in-hand with every stop for using a mobile. The dangerous driving charge indicates that there was more to it than just using her mobile.

Walking the floors is natural but useless. *If* she's going to end up in court, then it likely won't be for at least 12 months. This is not going to happen next week. So talk to a solicitor and see what he advises. If he believes that she's likely to be put off the road, then she has time now to start preparing - find a new job, get put in for a transfer, etc.

FreudianSlippers

seamus wrote: »

Well this is thing isn't it. If she'd been aware that what she was doing was dangerous, she wouldn't have been driving dangerously.

Exactly!

dunna

Thanks again for all your replies! They are all helping us to view and understand the situation from a different perspective!
OisinT - re driving record to date - she does have 2 points already for driving @55 in a 50 zone but apart from that she has a clean record, never been to court etc (hence the reason she is so nervous!)
K_mac - thanks for that. We didnt realise that you only get points from one offence (i.e. the most points)
Reloc8 - thanks for the wealth of information! We are looking into getting a good solicitor!
Mr. Presentable - she had overtook a car a while before the incident took place and was indicating back into the left lane when the blue lights appeared!
Seamus - couldnt have said it better myself! If she had been aware she would not have done it! Although I accept she should not have been on the phone. She has a handfree in the car but it is broken and the people who fix it said they had no appointments til the wkd so she's getting it fixed on sat this wk. Great advice re the job situtation! She was hoping to move to my neck of the woods soon as we hope to settle there
O and she was actually talking on the phone - not texting!

Thanks again, these replies are SO helpful............

Hooch

k_mac wrote: »

Is your partner sure she didn't cut across the Garda car when she changed lanes. Sounds possible going by the reaction of the Garda. As far as I know you only get points for one offence, the one with the most points.

My understanding of the penalty points is as follows.

In regards Fixed Charge Penalty Notices you can only get points for one offence. IE if your caught speeding and have no seatbelt on you can only get 2 points however you can get two fines.

In regards Section 52.....while it is a penalty point offence it is NOT an FCP (no fixed charge, its up to the Judge on the day). Therefore is acted on separately. Same as insurance and the other court appearance offences.

So in this incident, if the driver was on the phone and pulled out infront of the patrol car carelessly, she can get 2 for the mobile and 5 if convicted in court.

nuac

talking on your mobile while overtaking will be at least held to be careless driving and may be held to be dangerous driving.

If summoned get a solicitor practising in that District Court.

seanobs

Hi, I was found guilty and convicted of careless driving approx 3 years ago. The judge found I had a zippy car in the city and I was making zippy maneuvers. A lady had come through a red. I was overtaking to take a turn down a side road. She struck the side of the car. No serious injuries. I am hoping someone can give me an idea with when I go to insure myself again and I am asked, "Have you had any previous driving convictions?"; at what stage will this conviction be irrelevant and not play a part on how much I will be asked to pay to insure myself. Thanks in advance. - Sean

Delancey

seanobs wrote: »

Hi, I was found guilty and convicted of careless driving approx 3 years ago. The judge found I had a zippy car in the city and I was making zippy maneuvers. A lady had come through a red. I was overtaking to take a turn down a side road. She struck the side of the car. No serious injuries. I am hoping someone can give me an idea with when I go to insure myself again and I am asked, "Have you had any previous driving convictions?"; at what stage will this conviction be irrelevant and not play a part on how much I will be asked to pay to insure myself. Thanks in advance. - Sean

I think the folks on the Motoring forum might be better placed to answer your insurance question

Jo King

seanobs wrote: »

Hi, I was found guilty and convicted of careless driving approx 3 years ago. The judge found I had a zippy car in the city and I was making zippy maneuvers. A lady had come through a red. I was overtaking to take a turn down a side road. She struck the side of the car. No serious injuries. I am hoping someone can give me an idea with when I go to insure myself again and I am asked, "Have you had any previous driving convictions?"; at what stage will this conviction be irrelevant and not play a part on how much I will be asked to pay to insure myself. Thanks in advance. - Sean

5 years is the norm.

Finnbar01

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

OP why doesn't she have a bluetooth headset or a handsfree setup in her car? I can't understand in this day and age why people still risk penalty points when these devices are freely and cheaply available.

I don't get it, I thought the whole notion behind the mobile phone ban was because they caused a distraction???

FreudianSlippers

Finnbar01 wrote: »

I don't get it, I thought the whole notion behind the mobile phone ban was because they caused a distraction???

Yeah, looking down to dial or answer etc. Not the distraction from talking - by that reasoning, it would be illegal to talk to your passengers

Finnbar01

OisinT wrote: »

Yeah, looking down to dial or answer etc. Not the distraction from talking - by that reasoning, it would be illegal to talk to your passengers

Or changing the radio or scrathing yourself.