Ethos Question at second level

gaeilgegrinds1

The girl I had as a Dip this year just called me, she has an interview later this week. How does she answer the ethos question? Not a huge deal in the school we are in but she is being interviewed in is a Christian Brother School. Also, as the job is permanent she is wondering does that mean it is for someone else already in the job? Any opinions? Thanks so much

tvnutz

I'd imgaine it means its a permanent position, as in not part time and not just for this year.

If the school she is applying to has a website it is a good idea to have a look at that. The Ethos is usually on the site as well as a lot of other info that could be helpful in the interview.

Delphi91

gaeilgegrinds1 wrote: »

The girl I had as a Dip this year just called me, she has an interview later this week. How does she answer the ethos question? Not a huge deal in the school we are in but she is being interviewed in is a Christian Brother School. Also, as the job is permanent she is wondering does that mean it is for someone else already in the job? Any opinions? Thanks so much

CBS Schools are now run by the ERST (Edmund Rice Schools Trust). In terms of the ethos, how it influences your teaching, etc, your former Dip student should have a read of this document (http://www.erst.ie/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/erst_charter_sm.pdf) from the ERST website.

gaeilgegrinds1

Thanks so much. Very helpful posts. Also, she assumed it had someone else's name on it as it is permanent as in our school you do 4 years, get CID on 5th and never seem to become permanent.

niall3r

Well if she is a practicing Roman Catholic and mentions that when they ask her about working in a specific ethos school it would certainly do no harm.

gaeilgegrinds1

How does one mention that though? Without sounding false and pushy. She is without doubt a practising Catholic.

rainbowtrout

gaeilgegrinds1 wrote: »

How does one mention that though? Without sounding false and pushy. She is without doubt a practising Catholic.

To be honest I don't think she'd have to mention it. I reckon most interview panels would assume (not always correctly) that most if not all candidates are Catholic in a 'Sure, she's Irish, what else would she be?' sort of way.

Maybe she should approach it more from a values angle rather than a strictly religious angle, ya know, holistic education, looking out for the student's well being, trying to get the best out of every student regardless of their ability etc etc.

EoghanRua

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Maybe she should approach it more from a values angle rather than a strictly religious angle, ya know, holistic education, looking out for the student's well being, trying to get the best out of every student regardless of their ability etc etc.

I did an interview in a CBS recently and there was no question specific to the school's ethos nor was there a single word about religion.

I think what's mentioned here "looking out for the student's well being, trying to get the best out of every student regardless of their ability" as would surely be part of the ethos of every school? But surely anyone aspiring to teach should be thinking this way anyway?

It might be useful to check the school's website to see if it is specifically mentioned anyway. I taught last year in a Community School and its website contained information about expectations of pupils accepting the school's 'ethos' yet did not expressly state what that ethos was.

rainbowtrout

EoghanRua wrote: »

I did an interview in a CBS recently and there was no question specific to the school's ethos nor was there a single word about religion.

I think what's mentioned here "looking out for the student's well being, trying to get the best out of every student regardless of their ability" as would surely be part of the ethos of every school? But surely anyone aspiring to teach should be thinking this way anyway?

It might be useful to check the school's website to see if it is specifically mentioned anyway. I taught last year in a Community School and its website contained information about expectations of pupils accepting the school's 'ethos' yet did not expressly state what that ethos was.

Yes it probably would, but I was making the point that the person going for interview could talk about stuff like that without bringing religion into it.

Also while that might be in the ethos of all schools, some schools are very much exam and grade oriented (like it or not) and ask specific questions about achieving the best results and gloss over the holistic stuff. Other schools are more focused on the student being in a positive learning environment regardless of the academic achievements of the student at the end of it.

While you would hope all teachers would want that for their students, there are some teachers who only want to work in specific schools, or only want the honours classes, don't want to work in a VEC school etc. I remember when I left college and I got my position in a VEC school a friend of mine (also a teacher) said to me, 'Congrats on the job, I wouldn't want to work in a VEC school myself, they're rougher, and you get paid less' :rolleyes:

So perceptions can be blinkered among the teaching community as well as with parents and students. Anyway starting to go off topic...

gaeilgegrinds1

I'm intruiged to know why your friend thought you might get paid less? Again going off topic but sure how and ever! I think she's in with a firing chance so fingers crossed for her.

rainbowtrout

gaeilgegrinds1 wrote: »

I'm intruiged to know why your friend thought you might get paid less? Again going off topic but sure how and ever! I think she's in with a firing chance so fingers crossed for her.

I have no idea. To be fair we were only out of college, but she wasn't applying for any VEC jobs, it was Department or nothing. But it was evident that she didn't think VEC schools were as good in lots of ways, including pay!

gaeilgegrinds1

My first job was with the VEC, I'll never forget being handed a page and being asked to tick what I wanted. I ticked a few small items, was only out of college and didn't want to seem demanding in what was a really tough school...until it was handed straight back to me and I was told that the kids were poor, not the school and to spend as much as I could. I kitted out the room to the max, most of my friends were sharing rooms. The teaching was tough but I never had to ask for anything, it landed in front of me. Lots to be said for them!

scut

The ethos question is one of the most common questions I was asked. I answered it by saying something like ' In my opinion a school with a Catholic ethos not only encourages the academic development of the student but also spiritual and moral development.'

Ambersky

While I understand the basic tone of this thread is how to get the ethos question right in order to secure a job I would like to remind people that while 'practicing' catholics might not have much difficulty with questions on their personal commitment to a catholic ethos it is a problem for many people.

The ethos question is quite vague and words like 'inclusive' and 'holistic' abound, but how far it intrudes into a teachers own personal life is not clear.
This lack of clarity is what causes the problem in my opinion, if we knew where the line was exactly, we could come right up to that line or argue it, but instead it seems to be up to the individual school, parish or situation. Teachers dont know how much of catholic doctrine in particular, seeing as the vast majority of schools are under the patronage of a catholic bishop, they are expected to subscribe to.
Eileen Flynn was fired for living with a man she was not married to and that remains the test case on an individual not reflecting the ethos in teaching.

Equal Employment Opportunity is the right of all persons to work and to advance on the basis of merit, ability and potential without regard to age, gender, disability, race, religious beliefs, sexual orientation, marital status, family status, or status as a member of the Traveller community. I believe teachers should be protected in the same way against discrimination as other workers in this state.

The LGBT support groups within the teaching unions are working towards the removal of section 37.1 of the equality legislation and I believe it would be benificial if teachers saw this as being in the general interest and not just a LGBT issue.

I guess it wouldnt be such a good idea to raise these issues at interview but maybe it would be a good idea to think about the injustice of it and maybe at some time get involved in the removal of section 37.1

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/union-fury-over-legal-prejudice-against-gay-teachers-2129358.html

ASTI Press Release 2007
Clause in Employment Equality Act creates an
atmosphere of fear in schools

A special clause in the Employment Equality Act serves to create an atmosphere of fear and silence in some second level schools, according to ASTI Deputy General Secretary Diarmaid de Paor.
Section 37(1) allows an educational institution under the direction or control of a religious order to give more favourable treatment to an employee or perspective employee in order to maintain the religious ethos of the school and to take action to prevent an employee or perspective employee from undermining that ethos.
“This Clause is based on the presumption or prejudice that teachers or other workers might actively seek to undermine the ethos of a school or institution in which they work and that special protections are needed to immunise the school from their influence” Mr de Paor told delegates at the ICTU biennial conference today. “It fails to acknowledge that teachers, regardless of their personal beliefs and lifestyles, are loyal to the institutions they work for and most importantly to the students they teach.”
Mr de Paor added that the clause is having a negative impact on the school community by militating against the ‘inclusive school’. “If schools are to be inclusive communities then teachers must be able to communicate with their students in an open and honest manner in relation to issues such as homophobic bullying amongst students. A recent survey reported that 80% of teachers surveyed were aware of instances of homophobic bullying amongst students in their schools. The same survey revealed that teachers had difficulties in dealing with this issue among students because of fear of disapproval from Boards, Trustees, colleagues and other students. How does Clause 37(1) help schools to promote the need for inclusiveness in the school community and in society if it legitimises difference in treatment on the grounds of sexual orientation, lifestyle choices and religious beliefs?”
Mr de Paor said that while no school has acknowledged its reliance on Section 37(1) to date, teachers are very concerned about its capacity for use in decisions such as retaining or not retaining temporary teachers in employment and selecting teachers for promotion.
“All teachers - regardless of their sexual orientation or religious beliefs - deserve the confidence and trust of their employers, no less than any other group of employees, and do not require special measures or provisions to monitor and regulate their lives,” concluded Mr de Paor.
Mr de Paor was speaking on a Motion proposed by the ASTI and adopted by the ICTU conference today. The motion calls on the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to engage in a consultative process designed to effect the repeal of Section 37(1) of the Employment Equality Act, 1998.

spurious

The removal of this clause from our 'equality' legislation will be a priority for the LGBT groups within the three unions this year. There will be a campaign to make sure a motion calling for its removal gets prioritised by branches for TUI Congress and similar campaigns for the other conferences.

It's a nasty piece of legislation that many people are surprised exists.

rainbowtrout

spurious wrote: »

The removal of this clause from our 'equality' legislation will be a priority for the LGBT groups within the three unions this year. There will be a campaign to make sure a motion calling for its removal gets prioritised by branches for TUI Congress and similar campaigns for the other conferences.

It's a nasty piece of legislation that many people are surprised exists.

I was aware of its existence and its implications, I am very much in support of its removal, the sooner the better.

gaeilgegrinds1

The principal's daughter got the job, had one but not both of the subjects, sickening. And ethos was a big part of their questioning.

spurious

The other applicants should appeal and get the interview marks out into the open.

If it's all above board, well and good, though how someone without even the basic qualification (the second subject) got it over someone who had, does stink a bit of diddling. Your friend has nothing to lose by kicking up a stink.

Ollchailin

gaeilgegrinds1 wrote: »

The principal's daughter got the job, had one but not both of the subjects, sickening. And ethos was a big part of their questioning.

That's ridiculous- I mean who's to say that the principal's daughter isn't a good teacher- but she should at least have the two subjects needed!

As regards ethos- this is quickly becoming the new buzz word when it comes to schools & how they are now marketing themselves. And I use the word "market" because whilst most schools will always have people who will just automatically go there, they also need to have numbers of students who choose that school over another. Sometimes it's because of results, sometimes because of extra-curricular activities, and now ethos is becoming a big thing.

I would recommend anyone going for an interview to study the school's website or prospectus & know the ethos inside out.

Just as an aside- there was a mention earlier about VEC schools. I worked in one for 3 years and I worked in a private school for 3 years. Both were equally challenging but in very different ways- but I definitely never wanted for anything in the VEC school. Anything I requested on the budget I pretty much got, whereas the facilities were of a far lower standard in the private school.

gaeilgegrinds1

Ok so aside from the fact they are related, has she any hope of getting anywhere based on that fact this other candidate has only one of the subjects? I don't know has she the confidence to go do anything though as she said to me that she doesn't want a name as a trouble-maker.

spurious

gaeilgegrinds1 wrote: »

Ok so aside from the fact they are related, has she any hope of getting anywhere based on that fact this other candidate has only one of the subjects? I don't know has she the confidence to go do anything though as she said to me that she doesn't want a name as a trouble-maker.

What sort of experience did the other person have?
It would want to be fairly substantial to overcome a lack of one of the required subjects. In many schools, a person without one of two required subjects would not even get as far as an interview.

Is the school now going to have to get a part timer to do the second subject hours?

Some may say troublemaker, others may say someone who won't be walked on. Is she still working in the school? If she isn't, what does she have to lose?

gaeilgegrinds1

No my friend is jobless. She might get a few hours in our school but it's not looking like much. Both girls just did the Dip.

spurious

gaeilgegrinds1 wrote: »

No my friend is jobless. She might get a few hours in our school but it's not looking like much. Both girls just did the Dip.

And your friend had the two advertised for and required subjects and the other person had her father as Principal?

On the face of it it sounds very rum. I thought you were going to say maybe the Principal's daughter had been part-time in the school for five years or so.

What about any other candidates who went for it - would any of them appeal it?

gaeilgegrinds1

She has no idea who else was called for interview. I just think if they say two subjects only people with those should be taken.