Judas Iscariot ??

Cú Giobach

Matthew 26:23 He answered and said, “He who dipped his hand with Me in the dish will betray Me. 24 The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.”

Luke 22:3 Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve. 4 So he went his way and conferred with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray Him to them. 5 And they were glad, and agreed to give him money.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

John 13:2 And supper being ended, the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray Him,

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept;[d] and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Acts 1:25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.”

I took these quotes from another thread for the sake of my own convienience, thank you to the person who listed them.


A question I have is;
According to Christian teachings Jesus came to earth that He would die and be raised up again in order to forgive the sins of mankind.
Therefore Judas was helping to carry out Gods plan, why then would it "have been good for that man if he had not been born" and why did satan help to carry out his greatest enemies wishes?

Just to be clear I am an athiest and am not looking for an argument, this is just something I would love to discuss with a person with a good knowledge of christian teachings.

kelly1

What Judas did was terribly evil but God turned it into a far greater good. If Judas hadn't betrayed Jesus, the Pharisees would have used another means to capture Him.

It's crazy that people think that Judas was doing something good. God didn't want Judas to betray the Lord and be damned in hell. Judas could have sought forgiveness but he didn't and instead killed himself.

Zombrex

Cú Giobach wrote: »

I took these quotes from another thread for the sake of my own convienience, thank you to the person who listed them.


A question I have is;
According to Christian teachings Jesus came to earth that He would die and be raised up again in order to forgive the sins of mankind.
Therefore Judas was helping to carry out Gods plan, why then would it "have been good for that man if he had not been born" and why did satan help to carry out his greatest enemies wishes?

Just to be clear I am an athiest and am not looking for an argument, this is just something I would love to discuss with a person with a good knowledge of christian teachings.

The way this has been explained to me before is in the context of a Hollywood action movie.

You know the bit where at the end it looks like the guy who everyone thinks is good but is actually really bad, it looks like he has has won. He shoots the hero in the chest and the hero falls down, apparently dead. The bad guy gloats, thinking he has won the day and his pride in his crimes makes him shout about how great it is that he has killed the hero and robbed the bank and got away with it.

The hero then stands up, reveals he is wearing a bullet proof jacket, and then the lights turn on and it turns out that the bad guy has been witnessed by the police or someone shooting the hero and confessing to the crimes etc. The police areas him, normally with him shouting damn you all. The hero smiles and says something stupid like "Enjoy prison"

The point is because the hero knew the bad guy would shoot him in the chest, and knew he would be ok, doesn't make shooting someone in the chest a good thing. Man kind conspired with each other through their evil instincts to capture and kill Jesus (not just Judas) thinking this would be good for them. Judas did it for money, the Pharisees did it to retain power. In the end they didn't understand what was happening they didn't understand the moves God was playing and their belief in their own ability played right into God's hands

Cú Giobach

Thanks for the reply Kelly1;
It's just that I can't understand why Judas's act was evil when the point of Jesus on earth was for him to die and then rise from the dead.
Someone had to carry out this act, unless Jesus was to die by his own hand which does not seem probable.
According to Christian theology the death & resurection of Jesus didn't just happen unexpectedly and God went whoops and turned it into something positive, instead it had been preordained to happen and Judas the Pharisees and Romans were the "tools" that God used for this to happen.
I genuinely would love to understand this.
I had a strict catholic upbringing and have wondered about this all my life.


Edit; thanks Wicknight, I posted this before seeing your reply.

Soul Winner

Here's how I make sense of Judas.

He was a follower of Jesus and as such, was a believer in Him, but he had a different idea from Jesus as to how the Kingdom would come about. Judas was convinced that Jesus was the Messiah and the Jews never expected their Messiah to die. When He came, they expected Him to set up His kingdom and destroy His enemies. The Jews hated the Romans and were tired of their occupation in their country. Judas had seen all the miracles that Jesus performed and as a believer in Jesus thought to himself that if they try to catch Jesus then Jesus being backed into a corner would just destroy them all. So Judas got it into his head to betray Jesus in order to get this kingdom up and running once and for all. This didn't happen and when Judas saw what come about because of his act he went into a despair and killed himself.

Had he repented of his act Jesus would have forgiven him just like He forgave Peter. Peter also betrayed Him by denying Him three times. Peter went off weeping bitterly and repented of his act and was forgiven, Judas didn't and ever since he has been viewed as the villain in the story. If it was Judas' intention for Jesus to be tortured and die on the cross then why did he despair of his act? The only thing that makes sense is that he thought Jesus would destroy them when they came to seize Him and that would be that. Judas even tried to give back the money, but why? If that's all he was after then the job was done. But that wasn't what Judas wanted. Judas just didn't understand what Jesus had to do before the Kingdom would come even though Jesus had told them several times. Judas didn't like the idea of a dying messiah and neither did His other disciples. Peter didn't want Jesus to go to the cross and after the resurrection none of them believed that He was raised until they saw Him alive again.

Anyway that's the only sense I can make out of Judas' story. What a tragedy for the man. He should have asked forgiveness.

As for Satan's role in it all. It is recorded twice that Satan tried to stop Jesus from going to the cross, once in the wilderness when he tempted Him and once through Peter. He couldn't do it. So seeing that he couldn't bring down Jesus he gnawed away at the ones closest to Him, Judas and even Peter. He nearly got Peter and ended up getting Judas. At that time in history Satan was running out of options so he just grabbed what he could grab. It was out of his control to do anything about the cross by that time. He tried his best with Jesus but he failed. Praise God

kelly1

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Thanks for the reply Kelly1;
It's just that I can't understand why Judas's act was evil when the point of Jesus on earth was for him to die and then rise from the dead.
Someone had to carry out this act, unless Jesus was to die by his own hand which does not seem probable.
According to Christian theology the death & resurection of Jesus didn't just happen unexpectedly and God went whoops and turned it into something positive, instead it had been preordained to happen and Judas the Pharisees and Romans were the "tools" that God used for this to happen.
I genuinely would love to understand this.
I had a strict catholic upbringing and have wondered about this all my life.

They way I understand it, God didn't appoint Judas for the task of betraying Jesus. God gives everyone free will and doesn't ever suggest evil to a person, the devil has that task. Through his own free choice, Judas decided to betray Christ. If Judas hadn't done it, some else would have because the Pharisees wanted Jesus dead (like all the other prophets they put to death).

It's a bit of a hard concept to get the head around, but God's knowledge of the future doesn't negate free-will. We all have free choice but God simply knows which choices we will make. Remember that God exists outside of time so every moment is present to Him now.

Hope that helps somewhat? But it's a good dicusssion

Cú Giobach

Would I be correct in saying then, If satan was unable to get someone to betray or kill Jesus then not only would he not have died, but there would have been no reason for him to die, because there would have been no evil in the hearts of men.

The way this has been explained to me before is in the context of a Hollywood action movie.

I never thought about this subject in this particular way before and it makes sense.

But it's a good dicusssion

kelly1

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Would I be correct in saying then, If satan was unable to get someone to betray or kill Jesus then not only would he not have died, but there would have been no reason for him to die, because there would have been no evil in the hearts of men.

Not quite. Due to "original sin" we are all born with a tendency to sin (concupiscence). So I think sin would still exist because our will is disordered to begin with. The will should be ordered totally towards the will of God but it's frequently selfish. And that's where the problem lies.

Our goal in life is to fight against our selfish will and conform it to the will of God which is denial of self and love of God and others.

Cú Giobach

kelly1 wrote: »

Not quite. Due to "original sin" we are all born with a tendency to sin (concupiscence). So I think sin would still exist because our will is disordered to begin with. The will should be ordered totally towards the will of God but it's frequently selfish. And that's where the problem lies.

Our goal in life is to fight against our selfish will and conform it to the will of God which is denial of self and love of God and others.

Ok, that was just an idle thought that crossed my mind in the context of this thread.

wolfsbane

Wicknight wrote: »

Man kind conspired with each other through their evil instincts to capture and kill Jesus (not just Judas) thinking this would be good for them. Judas did it for money, the Pharisees did it to retain power. In the end they didn't understand what was happening they didn't understand the moves God was playing and their belief in their own ability played right into God's hands

Once again, congratulations on a fine grasp of Christian doctrine!

If only all Christians paid as much attention.
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Titus 1:14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth.

wolfsbane

Soul Winner wrote: »

Here's how I make sense of Judas.

He was a follower of Jesus and as such, was a believer in Him, but he had a different idea from Jesus as to how the Kingdom would come about. Judas was convinced that Jesus was the Messiah and the Jews never expected their Messiah to die. When He came, they expected Him to set up His kingdom and destroy His enemies. The Jews hated the Romans and were tired of their occupation in their country. Judas had seen all the miracles that Jesus performed and as a believer in Jesus thought to himself that if they try to catch Jesus then Jesus being backed into a corner would just destroy them all. So Judas got it into his head to betray Jesus in order to get this kingdom up and running once and for all. This didn't happen and when Judas saw what come about because of his act he went into a despair and killed himself.

Had he repented of his act Jesus would have forgiven him just like He forgave Peter. Peter also betrayed Him by denying Him three times. Peter went off weeping bitterly and repented of his act and was forgiven, Judas didn't and ever since he has been viewed as the villain in the story. If it was Judas' intention for Jesus to be tortured and die on the cross then why did he despair of his act? The only thing that makes sense is that he thought Jesus would destroy them when they came to seize Him and that would be that. Judas even tried to give back the money, but why? If that's all he was after then the job was done. But that wasn't what Judas wanted. Judas just didn't understand what Jesus had to do before the Kingdom would come even though Jesus had told them several times. Judas didn't like the idea of a dying messiah and neither did His other disciples. Peter didn't want Jesus to go to the cross and after the resurrection none of them believed that He was raised until they saw Him alive again.

Anyway that's the only sense I can make out of Judas' story. What a tragedy for the man. He should have asked forgiveness.

As for Satan's role in it all. It is recorded twice that Satan tried to stop Jesus from going to the cross, once in the wilderness when he tempted Him and once through Peter. He couldn't do it. So seeing that he couldn't bring down Jesus he gnawed away at the ones closest to Him, Judas and even Peter. He nearly got Peter and ended up getting Judas. At that time in history Satan was running out of options so he just grabbed what he could grab. It was out of his control to do anything about the cross by that time. He tried his best with Jesus but he failed. Praise God

No, Judas was not a misguided patriot. He was a thief, stealing from his comrades and his Master. He seems to have been self-deluded, justifying himself no doubt - as his remorse over his betrayal indicates. But being a double-minded traitor/thief does not make one any the less a child of the devil.

We cannot speculate on Judas' motives when Scripture plainly tells us he was a phoney, a thief, betrayer of the Christ, whose end was perdition.
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2 Timothy 3:12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.