Battle Group South and the Jews

Fuinseog

I have just watched a youtube clip of BGS rounding up Jews as part of some kind of street theater.
BGS represents the Leibstandarte who were not involved in rounding up the Jew but were more fighting men yet BGS fulfills the public perception of the SS. it was definitely not a good recruiting advert for the group.

Morlar

This rings a vague bell for some reason . . . which clip are you talking about ?

This was to promote an actual play of some sort or did you mean something else by street theatre ?

What was the play and who wrote it/finances it does anyone know ?

I had thought that re-enactment groups were a bit picky about what they were and were not prepared to be involved in as regards TV re-enactments and so on in order to preserve some semblance of historical truth and credibility so I think there may be a context to this beyond what is presented here. Either that or it was just very mis-judged on their part.

Morlar

tac foley wrote: »

Being Jewish, I'd like to read what the 'Jewish Chronicle' has to say about that appalling bit of publicity.

Or as an adult you could make up your own mind no ? Or, is this some sort of reference to potential negative publicity the country of Ireland could recieve in a jewish publication as a result of some activity in Ireland not meeting their approval ? There is plenty of activity in other countries which do not meet our approval and it's not exactly the end of the world.

tac foley wrote: »

Over here in the country that many of you on this board despise as an inhuman murdering monster,

Do you mean israel ? Hardly relevent to this discussion no ?

tac foley wrote: »

as well as the rest of Europe, THAT little charade would get you in court for 'inciting racial hatred'. I can see it now - 'Irish 'SS' play at rounding up Jews for fun'.

So putting people in court on 'racial hatred' charges on the basis of the above sounds reasonable to you ?


It does not sound reasonable to me, in all honesty it sounds more like a massive over-reaction. No one was hurt in the making of this piece of nonsense by the sounds of it and perhaps we should judge the context before calling for throwing people in prison and court cases and pleading outrage & offence?

tac foley wrote: »

Makes a great headline, eh? I wonder if Fáilte Ireland will be putting it into their local attraction programme?

tac

Like israel I am not sure the relevance of that comment. If you look at any country on earth you will find citizens engaged in private activities that are not stressed too heavily in their national tourist bureau welcome packs.

Morlar

tac foley wrote: »

Dear Mr Morlar - the public display of people dressed up in nazi SS uniforms is prohibited in certain countries in the EU.

Dear Mr Tac Foley - There are a lot of things that are illegal in some countries, hardly a meaningful justification in my view.

tac foley wrote: »

The public display of people dressed up in nazi uniforms 'playing' at rounding up 'Jews' is something that I personally find offensive. Being Jewish has a lot to do with that, I'll admit.

You are allowed to be offended - everyone gets offended at something at some point or another & no one has criticised you on that basis, however being reasonable would you not consider the possibility that there could be a context to this ?

Or that your reaction as a sensitive jewish person does not necessarily mirror that of society at large ? Minorities of all sorts have more pronounced sensitivities to things which to others do not carry the same relevance.

tac foley wrote: »

Living in UK for most of the time, I thought that I'd seen everything there was to see as far as re-enactors were concerned, but over here, THAT little charade would get the attention of the Government.

Again I would say this is not the uk nor any other country that has different laws. Other countries and how they legislate against potentially 'relative' events or incidents or events (based on the as yet unclear context to the above) is not relevant.

tac foley wrote: »

However, if you, living in the the RoI - a country that actively refused to help European Jewry prior to the Holocaust - think that it's ok, who am I to judge?

Ireland's WW2 & pre WW2 record is not what we are discussing here though is it ? Jewish terrorists in israel have also murdered Irish people in the british army uniform - something else which is not being discussed in this thread and has about equal relevance imo. Nor is the israeli army killing Irish soldiers in Irish uniform (just to give another example of the sorts of things we are not discussing on this thread).

tac foley wrote: »

I'd guess that the thought of a bunch of British 're-enactors' over here dressed up as PIRA planting a bomb under a war memorial or in a car parked in a busy town high street would be just fine with you, right?

Context Context Context. It would depend on the context of the event, the motives and the details anything short of that is a knee jerk over-reaction.

tac foley wrote: »

This 'conversation' is over.

tac

'We're done here' huh ? Okey dokey.

Morlar

Before the court cases and the throwing people in the dock for wearing the wrong clothes . .. can anyone confirm we are talking about this clip here ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uDtDqNk4JY

PRESENTED BY TOM MILLETT
With music and lyrics by Leonard Cohen, "Who By Fire" is a play with a life-affirming story of love, survival and hope set against the background of Auschwitz concentration camp. A story about the resilience of the human spirit and the strength of the human soul when faced with cruelty, inhumanity and destruction."Who by Fire" is the story of Anna Borowski, who grew up as a young girl in Auschwitz and who returns to the camp fifty years after her liberation.

"Who by Fire" will opening at The Olympia Theatre for six nights from June 18th 2007. Tickets are on sale now from Ticketmaster.

Battle Group South is a military vehicle and re-enactment group who specalise in the collection and restoration of class wartime German vehicles. It does not support or hold any political beliefs in any banned political parties or subscribe to any neo-Nazi movement whatsoever. It is a living history group.

I would be irritated by the historical inaccuracy in this than anything else. Otherwise I don't see anything for jewish people to be getting all offended by.

Unless I am mistaken here is a review of the play

http://www.rte.ie/ten/2007/0227/whobyfire.html

Who By Fire
Tuesday 27 February 2007
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Written by: John MacKenna

Directed by: John MacKenna

Starring: Margaret McBride, Sarah Maher, Alwyn Lyes, Neil Fleming. Declan McGauran. Adrian Sullivan, Charlie Hughes, Bonnie McCormick, Shane Sullivan, John MacKenna, Brian Murray, Aisling Carter & Shane Sullivan.

Location & Date: Touring in Longford, Portlaoise, Birr, Navan, Drogheda, Mullingar, Newbridge, Wexford, Moate & Tallaght until 17 March.
1 of 1 On nationwide tour until 17 March
On nationwide tour until 17 March

Maybe it's the conservative in me when it comes to the theatrical experience, but I like the action to happen on the stage before me. There are some exceptions, as was the case in the Gate Theatre's production of Festen during last year's Dublin Theatre Festival. Effective use was made of the entire auditorium at the Cavendish Row venue. The audience were sitting in their seats and felt part of the gripping, harrowing story as it unfolded.

Who by Fire, a story about the holocaust and the childhood experiences of a survivor, engages its audiences as soon as they enter the venue. Making my way down the steps to the bar of the Mill Theatre in Dundrum, I could hear the shouts of the camp soldiers barking out orders to the prisoners.

This was all rehearsed by the actors beforehand, but I remain to be convinced that this preamble of sorts adds anything to a production. The actors are clearly in character, but the audience is not yet in the 'zone' - are not emotionally engaged - as they decide whether to have a sparkling Ballygowan or a bottle of Bud.

On entry to the play proper, hands are stamped and another camp guard bellows out instructions that men are to be seated on the left; women on the right. Most of the audience did comply with this request. Interestingly, there was no announcement with regard to fire safety. Instead another loud shriek stated that all Jews are **** and that all mobile phones were to be switched off. We were up and running!

John MacKenna is an award winning playwright and documentary maker. For RTE Radio, he made a number of documentaries with Leonard Cohen. The music of the Canadian 'poet' features heavily in this production.

Some of the lines of his famous compositions have been changed (with Cohen's permission) to suit the narrative here. For example: 'First we take Manhattan' is rewritten as 'First We Take the Reichstag.'

This play with song is narrated by Anna Borowski (McBride), who returns to the Auschwitz concentration camp in 1990. She lost her family in the camp. Her memories are still vivid. The young Anna (Maher), her mother (Lyes), the caring Doctor Janiak (Fleming) sought out a better life in Vienna Yet they were among those rounded up for an altogether different life where the smell of death was ever present.

On their arrival, they are forced to strip naked. A scene that was sensitively handled by MacKenna! Indeed, the direction at times was flawless, as highlighted by the tender moments between Lyes and Fleming; the moving rendition of 'Bird On A Wire' by Adrian Sullivan as the doomed Charles; and Sarah Maher's poignant retelling of 'If It Be Your Will' as images of burning play out on a back screen.

Unfortunately, this production is thrown off kilter by some bum notes. Charlie Hughes as the supposed evil Commandant, who has designs on Anna's mother, comes across as a pantomime villain and lacks any sinister edge. Bonnie McCormack as the Doctor, whether intentionally or not, seemed to be playing it for laughs. When asked to recite the words of Cohen, this pair obviously thought they were playing homage to Mel Brooks. Another scene, whereby members of the audience were brought on stage as 'prisoners,' looked clumsy. Lined up, this group looked like they were waiting for a bus.

McKenna's story, whilst not perfect, does strike an emotional chord in dealing with man's inhumanity to man. This conclusion perhaps prompted the standing ovation the play received at the end. Who knows what reception might have resulted if the tone was more serious throughout and the lyrics of Cohen given the requisite expression.

James McMahon

To me that reads like an emotionally manipulative piece of unoriginal, uninspiring theatre offering noting new in the way of insight into the ww2 experience more fodder to the canon of ww2 representation in art. Again I would say I do not see what in that is supposed to be so offensive to jewish sensitivities.

Fuinseog

Morlar wrote: »

This rings a vague bell for some reason . . . which clip are you talking about ?

This was to promote an actual play of some sort or did you mean something else by street theatre ?

What was the play and who wrote it/finances it does anyone know ?

I had thought that re-enactment groups were a bit picky about what they were and were not prepared to be involved in as regards TV re-enactments and so on in order to preserve some semblance of historical truth and credibility so I think there may be a context to this beyond what is presented here. Either that or it was just very mis-judged on their part.

Just type in Battle Group South on youtube and it will come up as part of balcony Tv. extremely bad taste. you have a skinhead in black leather and swastika armband, supposedly gestapo rounding up jews. then you have two members being interviewed shouting out comic book German phrases. they were promoting some jewish holocaust play.
they got their publicity but it puts WW2 reenactors in a rather poor light.

Fuinseog

tac foley wrote: »

Dear Mr Morlar - the public display of people dressed up in nazi SS uniforms is prohibited in certain countries in the EU.

The public display of people dressed up in nazi uniforms 'playing' at rounding up 'Jews' is something that I personally find offensive. Being Jewish has a lot to do with that, I'll admit. Living in UK for most of the time, I thought that I'd seen everything there was to see as far as re-enactors were concerned, but over here, THAT little charade would get the attention of the Government.

However, if you, living in the the RoI - a country that actively refused to help European Jewry prior to the Holocaust - think that it's ok, who am I to judge?

I'd guess that the thought of a bunch of British 're-enactors' over here dressed up as PIRA planting a bomb under a war memorial or in a car parked in a busy town high street would be just fine with you, right?

This 'conversation' is over.

tac

your rant is not entirely germane to what I wish to discuss. yes ireland, like ALL other European countries did not admit Jews before and after the war, just like Israel does not admit certain Irish people, but that would be straying from the point. please stick to the point or go to the politics forum.

Fuinseog

Morlar wrote: »

Before the court cases and the throwing people in the dock for wearing the wrong clothes . .. can anyone confirm we are talking about this clip here ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uDtDqNk4JY


I would be irritated by the historical inaccuracy in this than anything else. Otherwise I don't see anything for jewish people to be getting all offended by.

Unless I am mistaken here is a review of the play

http://www.rte.ie/ten/2007/0227/whobyfire.html



To me that reads like an emotionally manipulative piece of unoriginal, uninspiring theatre offering noting new in the way of insight into the ww2 experience more fodder to the canon of ww2 representation in art. Again I would say I do not see what in that is supposed to be so offensive to jewish sensitivities.

BGS claims to accurately portray the Leibstandarte but their antics here do more harm than good.
the theatre piece is probably as true a story as The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas, but I am sure it sells well and thats the main thing.

whats the deal with Kübelwagen. it has Abtsand 100 m printed on it. is that genuine? likes like something more the americans would use in Iraq.

FiSe

That ''Abtstand...'' sign is genuine. Some vehicles had it some didn't. It would be seen more in the earlier stages of the war and on lorries and trucks.

BTW how do you know they are picking-up Jews? Can't see any sign apart from a bit of white armband on one of those actors. It could be 'anti-terrorist' operation, could it?
Anyway, it's just a part of the promotion of the play a marketing stuff, nothing to be worried about...

PatsytheNazi

I remember watching a report on Channell 4 a year or two ago about WW2 renactment groups in England. Thing was, the most common uniform the lads were dressed up in was as Germans !!!! And after that American GI's ! Obviously poor old Tommy is forgotten about !

When they spoke to the lads dressed as the Germans, they said it had nothing to do with admiring Nazism but because in a sense the notoriety of the SS, well attracted them to the role. Bit like motorbikers or heavy metal fans who wear death head and iron crosses patches on their jackets and t shirts. And the reason given for dressing like GI's complete with jeep etc was they said that the GI had a bit more glamour associated with them because of the movies etc than poor old Tommy !

Fuinseog

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

I remember watching a report on Channell 4 a year or two ago about WW2 renactment groups in England. Thing was, the most common uniform the lads were dressed up in was as Germans !!!! And after that American GI's ! Obviously poor old Tommy is forgotten about !

When they spoke to the lads dressed as the Germans, they said it had nothing to do with admiring Nazism but because in a sense the notoriety of the SS, well attracted them to the role. Bit like motorbikers or heavy metal fans who wear death head and iron crosses patches on their jackets and t shirts. And the reason given for dressing like GI's complete with jeep etc was they said that the GI had a bit more glamour associated with them because of the movies etc than poor old Tommy !

true. a lot of people believ that the Germans had better uniforms and equipment that the British.

whats the deal with bikers wearing third reich insignia? you sometimes see them with runes as well. is that just to loo hard or is it something else.

dressing in a proper ss uniform at a reenactment is one thing.
wearing the insignia on civilain clothes in public is looking for trouble.

PatsytheNazi

Fuinseog wrote: »

true. a lot of people believ that the Germans had better uniforms and equipment that the British.

whats the deal with bikers wearing third reich insignia? you sometimes see them with runes as well. is that just to loo hard or is it something else.

dressing in a proper ss uniform at a reenactment is one thing.
wearing the insignia on civilain clothes in public is looking for trouble.

Well we're getting off on a bit of a tangent but anyway since you asked. Bikers such as the Outlaws, Hells Angels, etc in America in the 1950's started to wear Nazi badges and incorporate them into their patches as a way of giving their two fingers to society, even wearing WW2 German army helmets !!!! They had no affinity to Nazism despite what Hollywood and some media etc sometimes made out. They also use Pirate and Viking symbols such as the skull and cross bones, swords and axes etc

Never heard of anyone taking offence to them. Maybe tac foley can take it up when he sees a few bikers hanging around !!!

BlaasForRafa

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

I remember watching a report on Channell 4 a year or two ago about WW2 renactment groups in England. Thing was, the most common uniform the lads were dressed up in was as Germans !!!! And after that American GI's ! Obviously poor old Tommy is forgotten about !

When they spoke to the lads dressed as the Germans, they said it had nothing to do with admiring Nazism but because in a sense the notoriety of the SS, well attracted them to the role. Bit like motorbikers or heavy metal fans who wear death head and iron crosses patches on their jackets and t shirts. And the reason given for dressing like GI's complete with jeep etc was they said that the GI had a bit more glamour associated with them because of the movies etc than poor old Tommy !

A lot of actors when they are being interviewed say that the "baddie" is the most interesting role to play. Plus I think a lot of people now realise that not every german soldier was a nazi and not every german was involved in war crimes. There tends to be a generalisation in some media that all germans were evil and thats just not the case, it is possible to respect the landser without signing up to any of the nazi ideology.

I remember seeing in that channel 4 documentary quoted elsewhere in the thread that among the re-enactors portraying germans that the Waffen SS is more popular among re-enactors than the Heer. That I'd put down to the "cooler" uniforms and patches etc and the perception that they were harder than the Heer.

FiSe

They're getting more exposure in the SS uniforms, because everybody knows or heard about those units... After all Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler or Totenkopf sounds better than Feldherrnhalle 2 or 116. Panzer Division, although the last one has some followers too: http://www.windhund.org.uk/

Fuinseog

. Plus I think a lot of people now realise that not every german soldier was a nazi and not every german was involved in war crimes. There tends to be a generalisation in some media that all germans were evil and thats just not the case, it is possible to respect the landser without signing up to any of the nazi ideology.
.[/QUOTE]

unfortunately BGS lent their support to this cliche of the nasty nazi in their promotion of the holocaust play.

xflyer

Fuinseog wrote: »

. Plus I think a lot of people now realise that not every german soldier was a nazi and not every german was involved in war crimes. There tends to be a generalisation in some media that all germans were evil and thats just not the case, it is possible to respect the landser without signing up to any of the nazi ideology.


unfortunately BGS lent their support to this cliche of the nasty nazi in their promotion of the holocaust play.

All SS members were Nazis. The Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler certainly were. No amount of revisionism on your part can erase that. Whether the unit they depicted did or did not round up Jews is irrelevant. The SS Einsatzgruppen may have done most of the dirty work but they were all part of the machine.

I don't think anyone anymore believes all Germans at the time were Nazis or evil but they way some of you here continue with the whitewash. You'll be telling us next there were only a few bad eggs that gave everyone a bad name. Or perhaps the holocaust never happened?

Morlar

First of all congratulations. You are the third non regular poster in about 2 weeks to make an accusation of revisionism. Perhaps you can clarify that ? Exactly what was said that was revisionist ?

xflyer wrote: »

Whether the unit they depicted did or did not round up Jews is irrelevant.

This is where we can agree to disagree.

PatsytheNazi

Morlar wrote: »

First of all congratulations. You are the third non regular poster in about 2 weeks to make an accusation of revisionism. Perhaps you can clarify that ? Exactly what was said that was revisionist ?

Don't worry Morlar, he was accusing me of having a " campaign of revisionism and attempted whitewashing of Nazism " because I had the cheek to raise the question in relation to Max Hastings Bomber Command, if their was any comparsion between the Luftwaffe and the RAF.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67261405&postcount=21

xflyer, some of us ask the awkward question and don't swallow the offical victors line, that's all. Since you accused me of been "loaded and distorted " - what's your agenda ?

BlaasForRafa

xflyer wrote: »

All SS members were Nazis. The Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler certainly were. No amount of revisionism on your part can erase that. Whether the unit they depicted did or did not round up Jews is irrelevant. The SS Einsatzgruppen may have done most of the dirty work but they were all part of the machine.

I don't think anyone anymore believes all Germans at the time were Nazis or evil but they way some of you here continue with the whitewash. You'll be telling us next there were only a few bad eggs that gave everyone a bad name. Or perhaps the holocaust never happened?

Wrong, not all Waffen SS members were nazis, especially after 1943 when the manpower shortages were so great that previous stipulations for Waffen SS entry were by and large waived.

Fuinseog

The SS protected Europe from communism until the americans took over the job.

Fuinseog

xflyer wrote: »

All SS members were Nazis. The Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler certainly were. No amount of revisionism on your part can erase that. Whether the unit they depicted did or did not round up Jews is irrelevant. The SS Einsatzgruppen may have done most of the dirty work but they were all part of the machine.

I don't think anyone anymore believes all Germans at the time were Nazis or evil but they way some of you here continue with the whitewash. You'll be telling us next there were only a few bad eggs that gave everyone a bad name. Or perhaps the holocaust never happened?

its a pity you do not offer an opinion on the matter I raised at the start of the thread.

xflyer

Wrong, not all Waffen SS members were nazis, especially after 1943 when the manpower shortages were so great that previous stipulations for Waffen SS entry were by and large waived.

Oh Gawd, I knew as soon as I posted that someone would bring that up. By the end of the war it was all hands to the pump. But that was the end of the war. The simple reality was that up to a point, the Waffen SS were Nazis. They were hand picked and they knew it. They were resented by the Wehrmacht, particulary the officer class. The Leibstandarte in particular with their 'Adolf Hitler' cuff bands. They were Nazis. I know from my own limited experience that a good unit indoctrinates their recruits. To suppose that conscripts in late '44 or '45 were somehow neutral is to ignore the reality of the Hitler Jugend and the previous years of indoctrination.

Don't assume I know nothing of the subject or have a limited 'Discovery Channel' version of events.

And Fuinseog, if you want an opinion. I'll give it. The BGS were right and if anything proves they have no political agenda. Maybe the Leibstandarte did not round up Jews but the SS and the Nazis did. They, the BGS, proved themselves non fascist in nature. If they want to represent themselves as a reenactment group as opposed to a neo Nazi, revisionist faction. Then they succeeded.

Incidentally I repeat the accusation of revisionism. Somehow I think we should do battle on another thread.

TerrorFirmer

xflyer wrote: »

Oh Gawd, I knew as soon as I posted that someone would bring that up. By the end of the war it was all hands to the pump. But that was the end of the war. The simple reality was that up to a point, the Waffen SS were Nazis. They were hand picked and they knew it. They were resented by the Wehrmacht, particulary the officer class. The Leibstandarte in particular with their 'Adolf Hitler' cuff bands. They were Nazis. I know from my own limited experience that a good unit indoctrinates their recruits. To suppose that conscripts in late '44 or '45 were somehow neutral is to ignore the reality of the Hitler Jugend and the previous years of indoctrination.

Actually, in fairness, that's rather accurate to a point. Initially, the SS has stringent requirements, that dwindled to the point of accepting non-nationals unquestioningly by 1943. The point the poster was making, was that the SS were the elite of the Nazi system throughout the 30's until the turning of the tide in the early 40's. If you look, for example, at the casualties and records of the SS during the invasion of Poland versus, say, operations such as, Balaton, it explains an awful lot that a brief synopsis such as above never could. In fact, after Balaton - which would have been a disaster no matter whom or what was committed to it at that stage of the war - the SS divisions involved were stripped of their bands as a mark of disgrace.

Morlar

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

- the SS divisions involved were stripped of their bands as a mark of disgrace.

Wasn't there a story that they returned the cuff titles along with the severed limbs of some fallen comrades as an expression of their disgust at that decree ?

I think this thread has gone off the rails somewhat - it basically boils down to whether or not actual historical accuracy is important or can /should we lump all SS men in all units/divisions together ?

It is clear some people are of that feeling and many others are not - I would be more in favour of maintaining a degree of neutrality and accuracy on this - the devil is in the details as they say.

There is a lot of guff spoken about the ss fed by hollywood caricatures and lazy history channel documentaries/books. The deeper you delve the more complex an overall organisation they are becomes apparent. When you look at it in terms of how they changed at different points in time, and at different locations the various divisions can not and should not be lumped together, that to me reeks of laziness and inaccuracy.

marcsignal

Morlar wrote: »

Wasn't there a story that they returned the cuff titles along with the severed limbs of some fallen comrades as an expression of their disgust at that decree ?

yeah I recall reading something like that too, and I think it was in this book. If my memory serves me well, I understand that along with the divisions cuff titles, a comrades blown off arm (still in the scorched uniform sleeve bearing the cuff title) was also sent back.

Commander "Sepp Dietrich" said something to the effect of "Is that what we deserve? after everything we have sacrificed"

.

Fuinseog

marcsignal wrote: »

yeah I recall reading something like that too, and I think it was in this book. If my memory serves me well, I understand that along with the divisions cuff titles, a comrades blown off arm (still in the scorched uniform sleeve bearing the cuff title) was also sent back.

Commander "Sepp Dietrich" said something to the effect of "Is that what we deserve? after everything we have sacrificed"

.

many believe this to be a myth, just like in training they are supposed to have balanced a grenade on top of their head, while in the position of attention and pulled the chord.

marcsignal

Fuinseog wrote: »

many believe this to be a myth, just like in training they are supposed to have balanced a grenade on top of their head, while in the position of attention and pulled the chord.

could well be, the arm may have been sent back, but I doubt if anyone was crazy enough to present it to Adolf

BlaasForRafa

marcsignal wrote: »

yeah I recall reading something like that too, and I think it was in this book. If my memory serves me well, I understand that along with the divisions cuff titles, a comrades blown off arm (still in the scorched uniform sleeve bearing the cuff title) was also sent back.

Commander "Sepp Dietrich" said something to the effect of "Is that what we deserve? after everything we have sacrificed"

.

It could be apocraphyl, I heard it elsewhere and it supposedly included medals and decorations also. It may be that troops removed the cuff title to disguise what unit they were in if they got taken prisoner and the myth developed to cover this up.

Tony EH

xflyer wrote: »

All SS members were Nazis. The Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler certainly were.

After the nazi's gained leadership in Germany it ceased to a requirement for any member of the SS, even the Allgemeine SS, to be also a member of the party by the mid to late 30's. It simply wasn't necessary. In addition, the SS was far from being an single pilar of construction. Instead it was split into distinct groups and each had different views on a large number of subjects.

You are also wrong about the LAH. 'Leibstandarte' was simply an "honour title" bestowed upon the 1st SS Division, like 'Das Reich' or 'Wiking'. Nothing more. The men of the Divisional Leibstandarte were different than the men of the 1934 Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler, from which the Division grew. While the LAH of the early years probably did have a large active party membership, it wasn't necessary for the soldiers of the LSSAH to be involved in the party. Even Joachim Peiper, Standartenfuhrer in the LSSAH and onetime adjudant to Heinrich Himmler didn't have a party membership number. Although, there have been some attempts to suggest that he had, even though no membership record could ever be found. Not even during his trial. The Divisions of the Waffen-SS were never made up of party members and men joined it's ranks for many different reasons, even men who's political ideals would have been very different from the nazi's.

Tony EH

Morlar wrote: »

Wasn't there a story that they returned the cuff titles along with the severed limbs of some fallen comrades as an expression of their disgust at that decree ?

According to Gordon Williamson, Dietrich informed his men of Hitler's orders to remove their cuff titles and then promptly ordered them to disobey after the failure of the "Spring Awakening" campaign of 1945. He and his men saw it as the final insult in a long line of them and an afront to the sacrifices his men had endured.