DC Marathon, long runs and races clashes

BigBadTom

Hi guys,

Doing the DC Marathon this year, second marathon did the Connemara one a couple of years ago.

Was wondering about long runs versus races, I'm doing the FIRST institutes 3 day a week program as I still have a couple of triathlon left before the end of the session.

When a triathlon lands on the same day as a long run how would you reshedule, and the same happens with the 10mile and 1/2marathon in the park.

Mullinghar triathon clashes with a 15mile long run
park 10mile clashes with 17mile long run
DC tri clashes with a 13 mile long run
park 1/2 marathon clashes with 20mile run

I was thinking of doing the long run earlier in the week and sacrificing my tempo run.

Any comments, suggestion.

Krusty_Clown

Mullinghar triathon clashes with a 15mile long run - Do 15 miles v easy pace the next day?
park 10mile clashes with 17mile long run - couple of miles warm-up, couple of miles warm-down
DC tri clashes with a 13 mile long run - Easy 13 miles the next day?
park 1/2 marathon clashes with 20mile run - couple of miles warm-up, couple of miles warm-down, or swap your long runs around so you're doing the 20 mile run the following weekend.

tunney

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Mullinghar triathon clashes with a 15mile long run - Do 15 miles v easy pace the next day?
park 10mile clashes with 17mile long run - couple of miles warm-up, couple of miles warm-down
DC tri clashes with a 13 mile long run - Easy 13 miles the next day?
park 1/2 marathon clashes with 20mile run - couple of miles warm-up, couple of miles warm-down, or swap your long runs around so you're doing the 20 mile run the following weekend.

And the recovery is?

TFBubendorfer

tunney wrote: »

And the recovery is?

.. the days he's not running. The FIRST program only has 3 days of running per week.

tunney

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

.. the days he's not running. The FIRST program only has 3 days of running per week.

Missed the three days running a week bit. Sorry. Still long run the day after an olympic distance tri. (Twice) wouldn't fancy that myself.

Krusty_Clown

tunney wrote: »

And the recovery is?

13 and 15 mile runs can be run at a very easy pace, the day after a running race (though I confess to having no knowledge of triathlons). Tunney - perhaps you could furnish some alternative advice?

I don't see any issues with running some warm-up and warm-down miles before/after the 10 mile and half marathon races, to bring the mileage up to 15 and 20 miles respectively. Recovery the following day.

tunney

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

13 and 15 mile runs can be run at a very easy pace, the day after a running race (though I confess to having no knowledge of triathlons). Tunney - perhaps you could furnish some alternative advice?

I just know my legs would be shot the day after racing an OD and I don't think the long run would not be of any quality and wouldn't be anyway near the pace I want to do a marathon training long run at. If only running three times a week why not space things out a bit more?

Krusty_Clown

tunney wrote: »

I just know my legs would be shot the day after racing an OD and I don't think the long run would not be of any quality and wouldn't be anyway near the pace I want to do a marathon training long run at. If only running three times a week why not space things out a bit more?

Fair point. I kind of skipped over the three days a week of running too. As I said, I don't know anything about the trials and impact of a triathlon, but the running schedules I follow tend to have a long run the day after a race on two occasions (10k and 10 mile) of 18 to 20 miles, which are very hard to do, but from an endurance and psychological boost perspective (running on very tired legs) seem to pay off.

In the grand scheme of a marathon plan, 13 and 15 mile runs are not very long (when compared to 20 mile runs and the marathon itself).

But back to the point - If you're running three days a week rest a day or two after the tris, and then do your 13 and 15 mile runs. For the others, I would build the extra mileage before and after your race in the form of very easy warm-up and warm-down miles, or consider swapping the weekend's long runs. Isn't the Phoenix park half usually timed so that it doesn't fall on a 20 mile LSR weekend (for a typical three week taper)?

Gringo78

I take it since you are doing triathlons, you do other training in the week such as swimming or cycling?

I think the long runs are spaced out in the FIRST program as every second week longer/shorter, progressing in distance throughout the cycle i.e something like 12-16-13-18-14-20. If the tri or race clashes with a long one, do it the preceding or following week, if its a short long run, just forget about it.

As regards the 10 mile race & HM race....a few miles before and after does not turn these into an equivalent long run. Since the 10 mile race & HM race are at or around LT pace I would drop the tempo run that week and do some PMP miles instead for the same duration, that will leave you fresher for the race than having done a tempo and you will get the training effect from the race that you would have got from the tempo.

As regards the 20 miler...is this the last long run in the plan, i.e 3 weeks before the marathon? Then plan to do it the previous week.

Since you have done a marathon before and seem to be doing a few tri's also I'm making the assumption here that you would have no problem doing an 18 & a 20 miler 2 weeks in a row i.e what was 18-14-20 in the plan would become 18-20-HM. Would be helpful to post the plan and your background.

T runner

I have a 10 miler 4 weeks before Berlin and national half 3 weeks before. I may completely restructure the weeks and have midweek long runs for those two weeks. Might include sessions of 10 by 400 for speed also, and very very easy running apart from.

May also do the last long run 2-3 days after half reducing the taper by 1-2 days but having extra days recovery before long run.

Krusty_Clown

Gringo78 wrote: »

As regards the 10 mile race & HM race....a few miles before and after does not turn these into an equivalent long run.

I don't see why not. A 2-3 mile warm-up before a 10 mile or 1/2 marathon race is generally recommended, and won't affect your performance. A warm-down after a race is also recommended, and 20-30 minutes after the race would see the run completed.

BigBadTom

Thanks very much for all the reply's, some great feed back.
Some very different ideas.

Some back ground:
Yes I'm cycling almost every day and try to get to the pool two days a week.
I mainly targeted sprint tri's this year and competed in the European age groups.
I've done 2 Olympics this year and have two more to go.
Have done a couple of 10k's and those duathlons in the park as well as an aquathon.
I run 10k just under the 40 mins on a good day.
I know its earily but I'm looking at 3:15 to 3:20 marathon

The full program is here
http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/general/the-first-three-day-a-week-marathon-schedule/2493.html

When i set my paces I used a 10k time of 41 to give myself some breathing space.

The program looks like this starting this weekend its
14m long run
15m long run mullingar olympic
17m long run 10 mile
13m long run DC olympic
18m long run
15m long run
20m long run Half in the park
15m long run
20m long run
15m long run
10m long run
marathon

Looking at it, it looks a bit crazy I think I'm not going to do the 10miler in the park its too much 3 weeks in a row.

So I'm thinking about doing the following

The two long runs that are on the same days as the tris are shorter long runs (13 and 15 mile)
The mullinghar tri is on a Saturday so I might do interval on the monday long run on Wednesday and then two days off before the race, and swap the tri for my tempo run.

The Dublin city tri is on a Sunday so I reckon I can do my long run on the Thursday bump the tempo run for the tri again

Then I think I'll take Gringo78's advice and do the 20miler the week before the 1/2 marathon (even though it means i have an 18 one week and a 20 the next)
then the 1/2 marathon is on a 15 mile week and 13 and 15 very little in the difference after warm up and cool down like krusty said.

How does that sound?
Am I losing much benefit doing the 20 miler directly after the 18 miler?
Its not my last 20 miler I still have one more, but I found last time that the 20 milers where really great for the head, just to know I could do them. I really don't want to miss that confidence booster.

Gringo78

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I don't see why not. A 2-3 mile warm-up before a 10 mile or 1/2 marathon race is generally recommended, and won't affect your performance. A warm-down after a race is also recommended, and 20-30 minutes after the race would see the run completed.

I think maybe I should rephrase the point...yes, its good to do a few miles before and after the 10 miler but:

3 miles warmup + 10 mile Race + 3 miles cooldown does not equal the desired training effect of a 16 mile long run in my book. The 16 mile LSR is to develop fat burning metabolism and depending on the schools of thought also throw in a bit of PMP running, get the feel of marathon pace (although I prefer to seperate it and keep the long runs at max PMP+10%). Therefore, running 10 miles @ LT pace is a totally different training effect...its developing LT pace. Now of course it will develop endurance but its not the most effective way of doing so. And adding miles unneccessarily on race day will affect how hard you can train in your next key session.

Krusty_Clown

Gringo78 wrote: »

I think maybe I should rephrase the point...yes, its good to do a few miles before and after the 10 miler but:

3 miles warmup + 10 mile Race + 3 miles cooldown does not equal the desired training effect of a 16 mile long run in my book. The 16 mile LSR is to develop fat burning metabolism and depending on the schools of thought also throw in a bit of PMP running, get the feel of marathon pace (although I prefer to seperate it and keep the long runs at max PMP+10%). Therefore, running 10 miles @ LT pace is a totally different training effect...its developing LT pace. Now of course it will develop endurance but its not the most effective way of doing so. And adding miles unneccessarily on race day will affect how hard you can train in your next key session.

3 Miles warm-up/warm-down is around 21 - 27 minutes. Certainly not unnecessary. Sure, it's not the same as doing an LSR, but it's better than skipping the session altogether.

Seems like you have your answer BigBadTom.