Paris Landlords

thedizzler

Hey guys,
Really hoping someone can help me out here! I've just accepted a job with an Irish company in Paris- delighted and excited! However, they say they can't help me much with finding accomodation so I've just been to ADIL this morning. The guy was lovely, but because it's a new contract, my guarantors are foreign and I'm missing previous French tax papers etc it looks fairly bleak. He mentioned that a proprietaire might be more lenient on the dossier, but they're hard to meet. Do any of the good boardsies out there know of any easy going landlords? (near the 8th would be amazing!)
Or any other advice would be great!
Thankses

LilOc

Do you want something on your own (then how big) or definitely a long-term lease stright away?...

It may be better to start off short-term (because then they would let you the appartment easily (kinda, for Paris...), that is what i'm doing currently.

One of my friends (from Japan so there's the language problem on top of that for the papers) landed a job in Paris too and started last week, she has all the documents and could push to get a guarantor, she's 25 going on 26 pretty independant etc...but that wouldn't be enough to get a decent place in Paris when the competition for every free decent flat is super high...

So yep, forget agencies (or maybe one for expats), and maybe trying to build a flatshare (unless you're completely opposed to it) would be a better option.

Also, Paris transport system is really good so even if your job is in the 8th (crap area to live in plus very expensive, but your company must be a big one if they're located there so well done), you could live anywhere in Paris on the same métro line as the stop your job location is near to (even with one connection it's not bad) and you wouldn't spent so much time in the transport everyday.


Check http://www.pap.fr (and their paper version)

Ads on vivastreet, kijiji etc...directly from owners (propriétaires/particulier).

Good luck!

Or would you be interested to share a flat with fellow Irish and non-Irish professionals in Paris come mid september/october?

thedizzler

Thanks a million for your reply Liloc, it's great to get another perspective on things.
To answer your questions, I'm searching alone for right now, looking for a large studio or T2 with a maximum budget of €1000. I've no idea of what arrondisement would be cool (suggestions?), but if it were near metro line 9 or 13 I reckon I'd eventually get to work.
Any information at all would be great, I'm spending my life on the links Liloc suggested!
Thanks again guys.

nattyguest

Hi mate,

While I don’t know any boardies in France I can probably give you some pointers and advice in other areas if this is your first time moving to France. Just as a background I moved to France in 2005 and stayed until 2009 for exactly four years and I’ve witnessed several hundred people from all across Europe relocate here and so have seen quite a bit of things in this area

Housing

[url]Http://www.seloger.co.uk/immobilier/locations[/url] - English language site for renting. Just to clarify, your budget for an apartment/house etc isn’t set by you and what “you” think is right – it’s set by your salary, or to be precise you are generally expected to pay no more than 1/3 of your gross salary on rent. Most landlords and agencies will insist proof of wage. There are incredible social laws governing rental in France which heavily favour the tenant (you could for example not pay rent from October to March and you cannot be legally kicked out of your flat, this is a result of several people freezing to death in the 50’s and auctioned a large change in laws).

So while the laws protect and favour you the landlords need to do what they can to ensure the accommodation is within your ability to pay. It’s one of the things they rarely budge on I’m afraid.

I’d suggest you first speak to your company to see if they offer any help at all with the move, I know they said no but see if there's anything on offer . If not, connect with people already in your company in France to get their experiences. I’d highly recommend a relocation agency – even if you are fluent in French the contracts are incredibly convoluted and so on. Plus as a foreigner, while you might not be directly exploited, you certainly leave yourself open to misunderstandings of the rules, etc. Our company used foursquare relocation which was taken over by Primacy relocation – I don’t know what deals our company got but I know as a private person for an average relocation pack you are looking at €1000 euro which will get you:
• Help with finding a flat
• One day excursion to view flats
• Signing of contract, etc
• Finalising the move and any documents, setting up electricity (generally not the phone though) plus usually available for a month or two after in case of issues.
• Possible help with social welfare, banks, etc may be extra.

The reason I suggest a relocation company is because it adds a layer of slickness and more importantly throws some locals and natives into the mix which will reassure agencies and landlords. You will definitely find it easier with a relocation agency, because if the guarantors are an issue, the relocation guys are getting paid to help you move beyond that and you can raise it in your introduction meeting.

I know in some rare cases people had to put their family back home as guarantors, there was simply no other way around it. Best of luck in this area anyway, it will certainly be the hardest and I would consider money on a relocation agency extremely well spent and a wise investment.

Banking

If you are under 26, congratulations. You are still a child to most French organisations including the bank which result in cheaper deals on the metro, etc at the weekend but a more childish view from the bank including fairly tight restrictions on weekly withdrawals etc. (these can be discussed with the bank later). But seriously, if you are looking for a good bank I can only sing the praises of the staff at Societe Generale, 43 Avenue Kleber, 75116 in the 16th. There are two branches on this street, this is the one on the right if you face the Arc.

Most of the staff in there are fluent English and the managers especially are incredibly Friendly. My manager in there was (probably still is with my acc) Ling Ostermann. They really bend over backwards to help you. All of our staff accounts were setup there so they are very familiar with foreigners coming over to setup accounts. If you want I can send you the details for her to get setup and arrange an appointment.

Transport and utilities

As the previous poster said, transport is amazing. If you live within the Paris city region, you’ll be looking at about 40 euro a month for your metro ticket. Your company will probably offer to give you back half of this for 11 months of the year (you get nothing for August as you should be on vacation theoretically with the rest of Paris :P)

For your internet, tv, phone I recommend free (www.free.fr) – for €30 a month you get super fast internet, television and most of your calls included (landlines to most countries, mobiles to US and Canada as well as landlines to those). I had them for three out of my four years in France and can’t fault them at all. I had Numericable but they were pricks when it came to changing service and pursued me legally and their customer service was just abysmal. (Though customer service in France is generally abysmal on the whole.)

For electricity, gas, you will have the standard fare of EDF and GDF. Prices are cheaper than Ireland, not much you can do about it either way.

Shopping - if you are in the centre you are restricted mostly to Spar style shops which will drive your costs up - look out for stores called Auchan which is like a massive cheap store, far cheaper than Dunnes and with an amazing budget line. They have one or two stores in the centre, there's a big one up by La Defense.

Tax

Tax, welcome to your worst nightmare. Your first three years in France you have to pay tax in a lump sum for the previous year. You pay monthly tax already, which covers social stuff and is broken down in your 2 x A4 pages long pay slip to the very cent of expenditure, then pay the rest the following year. So if you started working there now, you would make the threshold to pay more tax for this year. Around April next year you would receive mail asking you to make a declaration. It should be more or less prefilled and accurate to your salary. You can make a number of declarations on it to help save or pay more money, such as if you are supporting family back in Ireland, or have a tv in the house (tv license is paid through this way rather than separate). After you send it back you’ll get your bill for tax around September time which needs to be paid normally via cheque or bank transfer.
Additionally you have tax d’habitation which is council tax. In most of the centre of Paris it’s actually zero in order to encourage people to live in there and not have one big central business district. Outside of Paris districts it varies but is usually based on the number of “rooms” in your house. The bigger your place the more you will pay. I had a 70m2, two bedroom apartment in Velizy (SW of Paris) and paid about 650 per year. Basically if you are on the property on the 1st of January you have to pay this, no questions or arguments.

So to sum:
2010 taxes – declaration in April 2011, pay around September 2011
2011 tax d’habitation – if you are in the property on the 1st of the year expect your bill around October of the same year.
I add all this tax information in because it comes as a surprise to a lot of people and can really catch you off guard. So start saving

After your third year there you begin to pay monthly. Essentially you fill out some forms but the withdrawal is monthly. The main thing to remember is when you leave France, you still have dealings with them for up to a year afterwards. I left in March 2009 and didn't earn enough in the few months to qualify to pay tax, but I still had to go through the rigmarole of sorting out documents and so on and so forth to ensure everything was above board.

Healthcare

Healthcare is free for the most part (well, you pay tax, so not really) and is amazing. I was taken to a French hospital once and they really show you how it is done. Anyway, your day to day stuff:
If you are off sick you must visit a doctor. There are no exceptions to this and your company may kick your ass for it. A GP visit is about €30 and you can claim some of it back. Normally your GP will prescribe you lots of pills – the pharmacy is incredibly cheap too and you also get most of the money back from any costs here. What’s amazing is that if the doctor prescribes you five pills and the pack has twelve in it, they just give you the pack. In my local pharmacy the procedure was you handed the prescription and your Carte Vitale (healthcare card, you get it once you’re in the system and paying), they tapped it in the computer and you normally paid a nominal fee. I never paid more than €5 that I recall for standard medication. They fire it into a machine and it came out of a chute. Bing bang bosh, out you go.
Generally you just use your Carte Vitale at any medical place (they ask you for it.) Some places that don’t have the machine or where the machine is broken you keep a hold of the receipt and post it off.
In addition to the standard amazing healthcare, many companies offer health insurance for very cheap. We had a deal with our company that for €8 euro a month we were further covered. Basically we were reimbursed more money, and were covered more financially in the event of an accident, etc.

Other

If the company you work for has over 25 or 50 people, I can’t remember which; they have to help you with lunch costs. This usually means a book of vouchers called Ticket Restaurant which you pay 50% of and the employer pays 50%. Mine were about the €7 euro mark but it varies from company to company. These can be used pretty much everywhere – I only found one restaurant in four years that didn’t accept them and that’s incredibly rare. The great thing about the vouchers is you can hoard them – I generally took a packed lunch to work and my fiancée and I would use the vouchers to dine out or get takeaways at home.

I can’t think of anything else at the moment but if I do I’ll post – please feel free to shoot me a line if you need any help

PS - You've a great opportunity to move to perhaps the most amazing city on the planet. The stereotypes are generally true - the Parisians come across as gruff but if you make an effort there and I don't necessarily mean integration wise, but just in general, you will get back three fold what you put in. I was very lazy language wise and my vocabulary was the essentials, getting around, ordering my take outs on the phone and making uncomfortable small talk with the neighbours in the lift. (Them: Le temps est très agréable non? Me: Oui.) My fiancee spoke fluent French and to be honest, not speaking fluently is probably my only regret about being there, but I certainly won't lose sleep over it. I didn't complain when I couldn't speak French and never expected the French to change to suit me so in a sense I suppose I integrated fine

Paris is just incredible - I spent most of my weekends walking around at night taking photos as I'm a keen amateur photographer. The city does not disappoint. Restaurants, sights, hot women, it has it all. I'll add a bit on restos tonight when I get home if I remember as I have something to say there too plus a book if you're interested I can post onwards.

Ponster

I can't offer any more than nattyguest but I've been living in Paris since 1998 so if you have any urgent questions when over here then PM me and I can pass you my mobile number.

thedizzler

nattyguest, you durty big legend! that's brilliant information, and it must have taken you ages to type out, thanks a million, really. Great to know the little tidbits that no one has mentioned so far.
I did my Erasmus in France, so I've some idea of the set-up and language (but not from a tax payers point of you- thank you!) but I have no contacts in Paris or the north in general.
The thing I'm finding with seloger is that there are a lot of agencies, who want a dossier. In that dossier they want three bulletins de salaire (that I only have from Ireland), an imposition or two (taxes that I've never paid in France) and a French guarantor (mammy, daddy and my bank are Irish, unfortunately!) The salary's pretty decent, cause it's an Irish contract (which also poses dossier issues), but it's all the paperwork that's creating problems. Did you find any way to get around that, or do you have any ideas on how to do so? Or does anyone else for that matter?
Again, thanks a million nattyguest, you're a mine of information, and the Irish aspect is really invaluable-saves me trawling through years of French documentation! You should go pro!

nattyguest

Ponster wrote: »

I can't offer any more than nattyguest but I've been living in Paris since 1998 so if you have any urgent questions when over here then PM me and I can pass you my mobile number.

One thing we both forgot is strikes Ponster

So, thedizzler, you will experience strikes. Lots of them. Known, unknown, planned, wildcat, big, small. I stopped counting after the 60th strike incident. So many don't make the news and are local. Striking is a national institution but I found it hard to be sympathetic - the last big batch of strikes was for metro drivers that wanted to keep their retirement at 52 I think with a large pension.

At stage Ponster sounds like he might be more information as he's still living there and I'm not! If it's an Irish contract then there might be some issues there as well. I still have a lot of French friends, let me fire out an email and see what the dealio is, maybe someone will sub let to you on the sly

thedizzler

That's brilliant nattyguest, thanks a million. I was thinking if I could get somewhere for even 3/4 months, then afterwards I would have the bulletins de salaire, and from what you're saying maybe even the avis d'imposition,which would fill out the dossier a bit. Thanks again for your help, if I ever find a Parisian home you'll be welcome in it!

nattyguest

Ok so I chatted to a colleague of mine in France on how we were guaranteed and while I remembered the words and so on, I didn't remember the purpose or meaning of them until she jogged my memory.

So..... you have:

http://www.procilia.com/loca_pass.html

The Loca-Pass is essentially a government guarantor for property. Again, get a relocation agency in France (Primacy) for example to assist you. Essentially this agency guarantees to pay the money in case you don't pay the rent, but not all landlords accept it. Generally you have to go to them with contract details etc which is why you get a relocation agency to help

nattyguest

One other thing I forgot!

You will need about 4 times the amount of your monthly rent for your first month there in order to get accomodation sorted, this is ONLY for accomodation and doesn't include food, utilities, relocation agency, etc

So for a 20m2 apartment costing you €500 a month for example you would need:

€500 - first month rent
€1000 - two month's rent as deposit
€500 - estate agency fees

This is just an average, the estate agency fees can fluctuate slightly and may be lower but it's a safe bet to go with. Additionally house insurance is mandatory for the tenant, I'll dig my bills up tonight to see how much I was paying, I don't recall it being an awful lot per year (€150 I think, or so)

thedizzler

Just to update: I've looked into the LOCAPass that nattyguest suggested, and since the 1st of this year it's only good for social housing. However, there's a new equivalent, called the GRL which works for private rentals. Information at grl.fr or la-grl.fr
Haven't done it yet, but I'll give it a try and let you know how it goes!

clint_eastman

Hi,
I've been offered a position in Paris for 3 years on a project at CDG airport. It's just kind of landed on me, so I haven't done much research yet and came across this thread. Can anyone offer me advice as to where I should live? Would I be better to try and base my self in Roissy near the airport or in the city center? Alot of the appeal of the move is the opportunity to live in Paris (central). If i did live in the city what are my commuting options, i could possible have a car there but would the train and buses be better.
My wife will be travelling with me and will be looking for a job as a teacher in some capacity, she's a primary school teacher here but I'm not sure what her options will be in Paris. Has anyone here got any reccommendations for her as I'd be sorted with my own job if we go.
I'll probably have a lot of questions over the next week while I'm trying to decide to go so I'll really appreciate any help similar similar to the great stuff already mentioned.