Cutting springs

cantdecide

Watched Chop Shop again recently and was discussing the spring cutting incident on that Jag with a friend.

I was aghast at the thought but my mate disagreed. He said it was 'alright as long as you don't go overboard on the chop'. He said 'look at all the lowered cars on the roads- do you really think they make kits for every single one?'.

Are there tons of cars on the road with cut springs? Do they actually drive as badly as people say??

JimmyCrackCorn

Therese two problems there


1. Your watching Chop Shop

2. Cut springs are just a bad idea and id go as far as to say dangerous if overdone. Plus you have no idea what the spring rate will be or if they will match.

--Kaiser--

Why this is a bad idea;

1. It will stop the spring fitting around the shock properly meaning it could come off.

2. If you crash and the insurance investigator notices your springs are cut it will likely null and void said insurance.

3. You car will either crash all over the place, or bounce around corners, or both.

4. It's easy to injure oneself when you cut them as these springs have huge amounts of kinetic energy.

So, it's dangerous, illegal and will make your car handle like ****.

If you're really dad set on lowering it, get some proper lowering springs, and yes, most types of cars will have lowering springs available for them.

cantdecide

Boy, am i glad i didn't say i wanted to cut my springs. What would you have said then...

JimmyCrackCorn

cantdecide wrote: »

Boy, am i glad i didn't say i wanted to cut my springs. What would you have said then...

buy bilsteins

SV

cantdecide wrote: »

I was aghast at the thought but my mate disagreed. He said it was 'alright as long as you don't go overboard on the chop'. He said 'look at all the lowered cars on the roads- do you really think they make kits for every single one?'.

Pretty much...

Wibbs

Or they're running coilovers where the spring is the same length but the platform is dropped.

VinnyTGM

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

It's easy to injure oneself when you cut them as these springs have huge amounts of kinetic energy.

Is it not potential energy, either way its a bad idea.

_Conrad_

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Why this is a bad idea;

1. It will stop the spring fitting around the shock properly meaning it could come off.

4. It's easy to injure oneself when you cut them as these springs have huge amounts of kinetic energy.

I'm sorry i have to take issue with thes points,


regarding point no.1: That's not universal to all springs, taking one coil to one and a half coils out for example on springs which are not tapered to one end, will not immediately make them likely to come off


regarding point no.4 : It is not a great idea to cut springs in situ, but if you remove them spring before cutting it, or but a spare one which is off the car and then replace the original spring with that, you will not have the same risk of it springing violently as if you cut it while on the car and compressed



Cutting the spring is of course not ideal, but if you do it properly and don't go overboard it is not going to suddely jump up and kill you like people seem to suggest, jsut like welded diffs, if done to a high standard and not operated by someone who doesn't understand the effect it will have and the altered characteristics of the car, it's not going to kill you.

However i still wouldnt reccomend either option for use on the road, as there are technically better ways around it, which will cause less public outcry too! :P

_Conrad_

Wibbs wrote: »

Or they're running coilovers where the spring is the same length but the platform is dropped.

or you can even have custom springs made to whatever rating and ride height you want

Wibbs

Agreed, but you would also have to change your dampers as changing the rate and ride height could very easily have them banging off the bumpstops as the piston travel distance would be outa whack. Hence coilovers with adjustable height suspension platforms are a far better bet. Even there you're gonna run into all sorts of camber changes if you're not careful.

MarcusFenix

I'll side with the "no frickin way homes" side here. The springs are made to carry a load etc. all for the set geometry the spring is manufactured around. If you cut the springs they will be weaker and pretty giddy, and probably go to sh!t after a small time.

I bought a colt with big rims, 18's in fact. had proper lowering springs on with standard set up everywhere else. This meant I had to change tyres waaaay too often as there was a camber introduced from lowering springs big rim combo.

Suspension is a tricky thing to get right and putting something as crude as a cut spring under a car is boy racer territory IMO.

Gary ITR

Wibbs wrote: »

Agreed, but you would also have to change your dampers as changing the rate and ride height could very easily have them banging off the bumpstops as the piston travel distance would be outa whack. Hence coilovers with adjustable height suspension platforms are a far better bet. Even there you're gonna run into all sorts of camber changes if you're not careful.

Coilovers are awful stiff, lowering springs with shortened dampers is the road I went down when I lowered my last car.

I just wouldn't feel comfortable cutting a spring at all

JimmyCrackCorn

Onkle wrote: »

Coilovers are awful stiff, lowering springs with shortened dampers is the road I went down when I lowered my last car.

I just wouldn't feel comfortable cutting a spring at all

That depends. You need to pick coilover, spring rates, very carefully if there for road use. Some use two springs for comfort.

Most coil-over setups are way too hard for our crap roads and iv done my back by doing exactly that. It actuality makes your car slower and worse to drive the rougher the road.

There was a stage i drive with a cushion under my arse to make it easier on my lower back on long drives.

I really like Blistines shocks and springs for road only use as threes no maintenance like coilovers.

At the moment im running tein super streets as i want to do track days and not be an inch shorter(in height:)) ever time i have a long drive.

Gary ITR

I went with the Bilsteins myself, they made a huge difference to the handling and look of the car without a huge sacrifice in comfort. A great damper and spring

Wibbs

JimmyCrackCorn wrote: »

That depends. You need to pick coilover, spring rates, very carefully if there for road use. Some use two springs for comfort.

Exactly. Coilovers can be made as comfortable as any normal setup. Indeed technically more comfortable as the spring length remains constant over the height. The problem is that they're aimed at petrolheads who want to toughen up their ride. In the oft mistaken notion that this will make the car better handling. Ditto with uprated bushings. Ok for a track car, but on the road not nearly so much. I've had to ferry a pure track racer when the trailer broke. I was trusted to do so as I drive like a granny . It was utterly useless and down right dangerous on anything but the smoothest sections. Ive driven a group A rally car in similar circumstances and though tough as fook was so much better in that respect. Other than the exhaust noise you could have lived with it as a daily driver.

The second problem which faces those of us with rice burners is that the Japanese aftermarket runs very high spring rates with tough damping. Not a good mix on Irish roads. Throw in a low profile tyre and poly bushings* and you usually end up with spinal compression and a slower car point to point. Though it'll feel faster with the increased noise and vibration and feedback.

Suspension is a black art and just one change in isolation will usually throw the whole thing out, especially with already "sporty" cars.





* toughened bushings. Dont if you have a mid 90's honda. At least in the back. The OEM bushings are designed to work within a patented suspension system that makes the car far more controllable under heavy braking while cornering. Its a very cool and complex passive set up. You wanna feel what sudden and radical lift off oversteer and fear based explosive diarrhea is really all about? Put polybushings in the rear suspension of a Type R(especially the LCA bushing). OEM all the way, or Mugen if you can get em

--Kaiser--

+ 1
For any car you drive the company will have spent countless man years fine-tuning the suspension, it's a bit foolish to think you can improve it by simply lowering the ride and stiffening the suspension.

Wibbs

Well you can improve some aspects alright. It so depends on the car and of course what you want from it. If someone wants to slam the car to the ground because he or she likes the look of that, then cool. I can see why that appeals. Or if there's a more sporty version of your car and you want to mimic that handling, uprating the suspension to the spec of the higher spec, again that can't be a bad option. Though you usually have to change many things, not just the shocks and springs.

While they spend a lot of time and effort, it's nearly always a compromise too. Naturally. Your average Joe or Josephine doesnt want a car that handles like a racer. It depends on the company as well. Some have more focus on suspension than others. Cost is a factor too. Unequal length wishbone style suspension has many advantages over macpherson strut suspension but its more expensive, so car makers will go that route, except in very high end stuff. Fully independent rear suspension is better than torsion bar setup, but again cost comes into it.

Me? If I was starting from scratch with an "average car" and wanted to improve the predictable handling for the odd track day? If it was second hand with anything over 30,000 on the clock, I'd replace the bushes all around. even OEM are going to be better than tired old rubber. I'd add in a strut brace, front and rear if it didnt have them. It really ties down the suspension. I'd find out the spring rates it came with, go slightly higher and throw in adjustable dampers(bump and rebound) to tweak it. I'd look to see if I could get uprated anti roll bars. I'd do research on the best tyre setup. Bigger wheels and lower profile isnt always better. I'd uprate the brakes. Thats a biggy.

That would be my list anyway. Though one mans meat is anothers poison. It would depend on your driving style and skill. I'm pretty crap, so predictable handling rather than monumental grip, but twitchy on the limit would be my preference.

Onkle wrote:

I went with the Bilsteins myself,

I had billies on Fords in the past and I found them very hard. That's way back in the day though.

_Conrad_

Wibbs wrote: »

I had billies on Fords in the past and I found them very hard. That's way back in the day though.

They are, but they're rally kit in fairness, and particularly when put on old ford they're put on for the rally heritage they have, and people are usually trying to copy the rally cars that are so idolised (for good reason) in the old ford (and particularly escort) scene.

Gary ITR

Wibbs wrote: »

I had billies on Fords in the past and I found them very hard. That's way back in the day though.

When you were young? Didn't realise they made Billies for the Model T











:pac:

VeVeX

Onkle wrote: »

Coilovers are awful stiff, lowering springs with shortened dampers is the road I went down when I lowered my last car.

I just wouldn't feel comfortable cutting a spring at all

Thats not entirely true with all due respect. If you bought B8's there are coilovers out there that are just as good and better in terms of ride quality and handling. You've just got to spend some money. B8's are essentially monotube dampers just like good quality premium monotube coilovers.

gofaster_s13

I've cut several sets of springs before, I've even been around Mondello in cars with cut springs, I didnt crash, I'm not dead and the car handled far better after cutting the springs. Not a problem if done properly.