Who was in the wrong?

eightyfish

Okay so I had a minor argument with a taxi driver earlier and I want to know who of us was in the wrong. I was cycling along this section of road towards ely place. There are two lanes going south, the inside lane (nearest curb) is for traffic turning left, and the outside lane is for traffic going straight. Most traffic turns left.

So I'm fairly near the traffic lights cycling towards them in the middle of the outside (straight) lane with traffic stopped. A taxi comes up behind me and tries to overtake me on the right hand side (into oncoming traffic). After a second he decides he can't do that and pulls up to my left and starts giving out to me about cycling in the middle of the road.

There is no cycle lane, and if I cycle near the curb I have to cross a moving lane in order to go straight. Therefore I feel safer taking the lane designed for traffic going straight.

Was he correct to be annoyed?

DirkVoodoo

Sounds to me like you were doing the right thing. The guy should have a bit of patience.

garancafan

I would suggest that the best position would be along the dividing line between the two lanes.

Cabaal

You cycle in such a way as to avoid being killed or knock down, sure this might have annoyed motorists for a min or so but you didn't nothing wrong in my book.

Had you cycled in the left lane you would have had to cut across a lane at the last second, this is much worse in my book

garancafan

garancafan wrote: »

I would suggest that the best position would be along the dividing line between the two lanes.

Disagree. Other users of either lane would try to squeeze by you dangerously. An assertive position is best, either middle or slightly left of middle I find.

DirkVoodoo

garancafan wrote: »

I would suggest that the best position would be along the dividing line between the two lanes.

Best in what way? Like Donal says, you are now inviting two lanes of traffic to squeeze past you, if you were accidentally bumped by a car in either lane or clipped by a mirror, you have no safety net and would probably end up under the wheels of a car.

He's entitled to use a lane, the white line is not a lane.

Lumen

He was right, because he is a taxi driver.

That aside, I would cycle a foot from the inside of the lane, and let him attempt the crazy pass, but I like excitement.

FISMA

EightyFish,
This is one of those instances that when you follow the law, you are actually putting yourself into more danger.

As the lead vehicle, you have the right of way and anyone that attempts to overtake you must do so safely and correctly.

With that said, when you are going much slower than traffic, common sense dictates that you stay to the side and not disrupt the flow of traffic.

AFAIK, I have never seen a lower speed limit sign in Ireland, yet I have abroad.

Now with that said, I do not recommend you cycle in the middle of the street. That will get you hit soon enough. There's not a lot to be gained becoming a hood ornament and claiming that you were in the right.

First, don't listen to taxi drivers, they are experts at breaking the law.

Second, don't engage them in conversation. Just smile and cycle away.

-Chris-

I say you were completely right OP.

I can't see it from the map, but if you were relatively close to the lights then I'd nearly guarantee that it was a solid white line between the northbound and southbound lanes.

Also, if you hadn't taken the lane defensively like you did, you can nearly guarantee he'd have made some sort of sketchy overtaking manoeuvre. At least by being where you were he had to force himself out of his comfort zone instead of just encroaching on yours.

carthoris

FISMA wrote: »

As the lead vehicle, you have the right of way and anyone that attempts to overtake you must do so safely and correctly.

With that said, when you are going much slower than traffic, common sense dictates that you stay to the side and not disrupt the flow of traffic.

I thoroughly endorse this as bicycles are traffic also - now I wonder when the cars are gonna get out of my way!

FISMA wrote: »

EightyFish,
This is one of those instances that when you follow the law, you are actually putting yourself into more danger.
...
Now with that said, I do not recommend you cycle in the middle of the street. That will get you hit soon enough. There's not a lot to be gained becoming a hood ornament and claiming that you were in the right.

Sorry FISMA - I have butchered your post to put some related pieces together.

The only danger here was a tongue lashing from an irate taxi driver. I think the fact that the taxi driver saw EightyFish is a good indication of the effectiveness of taking the appropriate position in the lane - the taxi driver looked at the options and found that it was not safe to overtake. The only thing the driver did wrong was to start giving out.

IM0

eightyfish wrote: »

Okay so I had a minor argument with a taxi driver earlier and I want to know who of us was in the wrong...

Was he correct to be annoyed?

there would be no boards if no one argued, which would ba a shame.

SubLuminal

You're in the right, you've as much right to be in the road as a car. Bikes have the same rights as cars. He was in the wrong. Report him. Taxi drivers should know the rules of the road if they want to use them (the roads) as their workplace.

sleepyholland

Cabaal wrote: »

You cycle in such a way as to avoid being killed or knock down, sure this might have annoyed motorists for a min or so but you didn't nothing wrong in my book.

Had you cycled in the left lane you would have had to cut across a lane at the last second, this is much worse in my book

When I read the first one, I thought it was just a turn of phrase.;)

Advanced Defensive Cycling for Beginners by Cabaal

Lawr

Hard to understand the logic of some drivers. I often get into the right side of the lane of traffic if I am coming up to a left-turning lane before an intersection. I have been passed on the right when doing so, even though there was plenty of room on my left to pass me by. I understand that it is probably illegal to pass on the left, but in reality, I was getting over to the right because I was positioning myself to enter into a right-hand turning lane. Cars often pass other cars positioning themselves in a similar fashion, but for some reason, a bicycle requires a new kind of logic. Go figure. And the assholes who pass me on the right during this maneuver, are usually doing so at breakneck speeds, screaming madly and gesticulating wildly through closed passenger side windows.

You were doing the right thing. You are a road vehicle. Obey the rules of the road and don't worry about a-holes.

Cabaal

sleepyholland wrote: »

When I read the first one, I thought it was just a turn of phrase.;)

Advanced Defensive Cycling for Beginners by Cabaal

Didn't you know?, its re-use a phrase day

tomasrojo

OP, you were completely in the right. You did exactly what is advised in Cyclecraft, and also exactly what I would do in that situation. People do not expect traffic to attempt to go straight on from the left-turn lane, especially when you have to swerve into the straight-ahead lane at the last minute.

There is no cycle track for going straight ahead there, as far as I recall, so you are not legally obliged to stay in the left lane. Even if you were so obliged, you still should not do so. The law also requires you to do what is necessary to maintain the integrity of both you and your vehicle, and that cannot involve swerving at the last minute in front of left-turning traffic.

cyclopath2001

eightyfish wrote: »

Okay so I had a minor argument with a taxi driver earlier and I want to know who of us was in the wrong. I was cycling along

Legally you're obliged to keep to the left of your lane and facilitate overtaking by others.

Legally, the taxi driver should not overtake if to do so would cause danger or inconvenience to anyone. In addition, if he crossed a white line in his poorly judged attempt at overtaking, that's illegal too.

Practially & morally, you do what it takes to stay alive & it's best not to waste your breath arguing with taxi drivers. So don't let it weigh on you too much.

Glencarraig

You should have taken his reg number, bribe somebody to get his address, and go and pour paint stripper all over his car. Taxi drivers are the scum of the earth, professional drivers my bo****ks !!

Lumen

Glencarraig wrote: »

You should have taken his reg number, bribe somebody to get his address, and go and pour paint stripper all over his car. Taxi drivers are the scum of the earth, professional drivers my bo****ks !!

Bribery and criminal damage. Nice. And taxi drivers are scum?

Glencarraig

Lumen wrote: »

Bribery and criminal damage. Nice. And taxi drivers are scum?

Absolutely !!! scum of the earth, want everything their way and if they dont get it they park across O'Connell Street and just p**s off even more people. Whats needed there is a fleet of car transporters and impound the lot !!

CramCycle

Glencarraig wrote: »

You should have taken his reg number, bribe somebody to get his address, and go and pour paint stripper all over his car. Taxi drivers are the scum of the earth, professional drivers my bo****ks !!

Won't agree with this, as Hermy would point out, they are not all bad.

I cycle along here alot, you have to take almost the right hand side of the lane to be on the left side when you cross the junction (it's slightly staggered). If you got his number, report him to the carriage office, he deserves it. You, AFAIK, done nothing wrong, unless your incorrect in your original statements.

I was going to draw a picture on MS paint what I think was the best choice, then I got really drunk and expressed how i would react if I was sober



I removed my **** *** ** *** *** comment, very proud of my national school level joint writing

eightyfish

Thanks for the replies guys. What made his rant even more stupid was that we were sitting at traffic lights, him behind me, 8 seconds later.

BostonB

I'd have done the same thing. Occupied the center of the lane. He was just impatient, and as a result made a bad decision to overtake. If you'd stayed to the left, you sometimes get people going left from the right lane. By going center lane you are much safer. Unless of course some mad ejit can't wait the 10 sec its takes you to cross, and decides to go up the wrong side of the road and cut in. But thats simply dangerous driving.

Cabaal

Glencarraig wrote: »

Absolutely !!! scum of the earth, want everything their way and if they dont get it they park across O'Connell Street and just p**s off even more people. Whats needed there is a fleet of car transporters and impound the lot !!

How does criminal damage make you any better then Taxi drivers?

Doctor Bob

eightyfish wrote: »

Thanks for the replies guys. What made his rant even more stupid was that we were sitting at traffic lights, him behind me, 8 seconds later.

I was going to ask about that, in fact- specifically, whether the lights were red or green. Red, obviously.

The other thing I'm curious about is which direction he was going- straight (like you) or left?

I ask because I know the junction in question pretty well, and - as you note - most cars are going left here, to the extent that I often see cars turning left from the straight ahead lane (and, very occasionally, cars going straight from the left turning lane). When I first read your post, I suspected that the driver was trying to get a jump on the traffic in the left lane, and he may have panicked when he saw that his risky overtaking manoeuvre was blocked by a *cough* bloody cyclist. Whether or not that was the case, he shouldn't have done what he did (even if you were in the wrong, which you weren't).**

Also worth noting - though not relevant to your query - is that this junction is one of the few in the city with a withdrawn stop line, to facilitate buses (and HGVs, etc.) turning left from Merrion Row onto Merrion Street. It - like the one at the junction of George's Street and Dame Street - is often ignored. Then again, when the line is near-invisible, perhaps that's understandable (City Council, take note!).

**I had a similar wrong lane incident myself over the weekend, at the junction of North King Street and Church Street. NKS has three lanes coming into the junction (coming from Capel Street direction), with the left-most lane being left-only (to allow for a pedestrian green phase to run in parallel with the straight ahead traffic). I was in the ASL at the head of the traffic (roughly between left and centre lane), and there was a taxi at the front of the left lane. As I got a green to go straight towards the Cobblestone, the taxi to my left took off at speed to undertake me- presumably having decided that queueing in the appropriate lane was for losers. Fortunately my cyclo-senses were tingling overtime and I fully expected him to do what he did, but that doesn't excuse it.

Hmmm... this seems to be turning into a bit of a rant! Apologies for going off topic.:o To answer your questions: he was in the wrong; and he had no right to complain. And I'd second most of the other posts here, but cyclopath's in particular.

tomasrojo

Doctor Bob wrote: »

**I had a similar wrong lane incident myself over the weekend, at the junction of North King Street and Church Street. NKS has three lanes coming into the junction (coming from Capel Street direction), with the left-most lane being left-only (to allow for a pedestrian green phase to run in parallel with the straight ahead traffic). I was in the ASL at the head of the traffic (roughly between left and centre lane), and there was a taxi at the front of the left lane. As I got a green to go straight towards the Cobblestone, the taxi to my left took off at speed to undertake me- presumably having decided that queueing in the appropriate lane was for losers. Fortunately my cyclo-senses were tingling overtime and I fully expected him to do what he did, but that doesn't excuse it.

I used to go that way everyday, and still go that way once a week most weeks.

I decided after a few passes through the junction just to queue up in the centre lane with the other traffic and not bother with the ASL. I decided the motorised traffic could fight for pole position and I'd follow through with the main body of cars once the stream had established itself.

If there's a long tailback, I usually position myself just to the left and just behind the car at the top of the queue, so I'm visible to the second car, and the first car can deal with anyone cutting in.

One thing I never do is try to use that cycle lane that lies to the left of the leftmost lane to go straight on. That would eventually end badly, I think. I guess the idea is to go to the end of the cycle lane, wait for a double red (no left turn, no straight ahead) and then use the ASL to line yourself up with the other side of the junction. Or maybe there's no real plan about how you're meant to go straight ahead. Probably just fulfilling a quota of "kilometres of cycle track established".

mockler007

cycle faster, so he doesnt have to over take you, !!!!
im at at least 17mph before drivers notice the lights have gone green,

BostonB

mockler007 wrote: »

cycle faster, so he doesnt have to over take you, !!!!
im at at least 17mph before drivers notice the lights have gone green,

A decent driver will be off immediately. So you can't rely on that.

Lumen

BostonB wrote: »

A decent driver will be off immediately. So you can't rely on that.

Well a decent driver won't run over a cyclist, so they're not so much of a problem.

BostonB

A decent driver might run over a cyclist if they don't see them in time. Jumping out in front of cars relying on a delay they might not exist is a gamble.

Slightly off topic from the scenario of the OP.

Tayto2000

You did the right thing, you're entitled to use the lane. Sounds like straightforward impatience and ignorance.

There's nasty junctions like this all over Dublin... I present for your consideration the mess that is the Ranelagh triangle:

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=swmsmbggbwb6&scene=56729744&lvl=2&sty=o

Coming from UCD direction towards town, the cycle path on Ranelagh road disappears and becomes a left turn lane on the far side of the Elmwood Avenue Lower junction. If you want to go straight ahead, to avoid getting trapped on the inside of the left turning traffic, it's necessary to pull out into the straight ahead lane well before the triangle junction. There's very little room to pass, so even cycling a foot or so to the right of the dividing line is enough to hold up traffic behind although in fairness most drivers seem to recognise the problem with the layout, I've rarely been honked or shouted at.

After getting into the right lane, if you cross the triangle junction straight, you'll find yourself in the middle of the road, so it's necessary to take a diagonal across the yellow box to arrive on the left hand side of the road where the cycle path reappears again, assuming it's not blocked by delivery vans or shoppers going into Centra.

To further complicate matters, there's a left turn filter arrow on the lights so the left hand lane will move before the straight ahead lane. For someone unfamiliar with the roads or without the confidence to pull out into the other lane, it's very easy to get positioning wrong and end up trapped and/or blocking traffic.

Out of interest, does anyone ever give the hand signal for 'straight ahead'? I've used it a few times but I always feel like it wouldn't be recognised by the majority of drivers...