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Cork Docklands Redevelopment Thread

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  • Registered Users Posts: 488 ✭✭ fresca


    Thanks Furet.

    My understanding here is that a major issue is the amount of land that the Cork County Board want in order to development a training pitch next to Pairc Ui Chiomh. If the council sell the land to the GAA, then it will reduce the amount of land zoned for public recreation (i could be wrong on that - but that's my understanding from a local person).

    Personally, I think that Cork County Board should look at developing a major training ground away from the environs of PuC altogether.

    The idea of having a major stadium in the city centre is a good one though.

    Overall, I think that this development will be great for cork city.


  • Registered Users Posts: 488 ✭✭ fresca


    There is some relevant information on this thread:
    http://www.munsterfans.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5691
    (thread starts in 2007 and has recent entries)

    It seems that there has been some "in-fighting" in cork city hall...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 invinciblePRSTV


    Dead in the water as far as i can tell, at least in the short to medium term.

    -Howard Holdings Bankrupt
    -Masterplan already unravelling to parochial interests (the GAA & CCB:rolleyes:)
    -No Tax Breaks forthcoming
    -No critical infrastructure forthcoming
    -Squabbling amongst stakeholders

    Thats on top of the ever pressing national issues.

    To be fair, taking the Dublin Docklands model and trying to replicate itself in each of the regional cities was always a bit of a mad idea anyway.

    (also a long thread on archiseek about it)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 BluntGuy


    Agreed with the above, the project won't be going big places anytime soon.

    That shouldn't however stop Cork City Council from using the Docklands strategy as a guide to further development in the area. There are some good ideas such as the guided busway strategy and the park that could be done fairly cheaply without the main bulk of the project. The bridge would be a useful asset to have in any case, though there is no need for immediate funding as some are claiming. Simply having the bridge isn't going to magically kick-start development.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 invinciblePRSTV


    Agreed on the white elephant bridge BG, but the whole controversy about the CCB and the City Council was that they wanted to annex large parts of the proposed public green areas in the docklands for their training facility. Of course the CCB got their way after using the appropriate avenues (local talking heads & media organs in thrall to the GAA).


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  • Registered Users Posts: 488 ✭✭ fresca


    and the word on the ground is that the CCB still won't have enough room to develop their training facility. so the logical move is to abandon the idea of having training facility next to PuC and move it (lock, stock & barrell) to some where else.
    that would leave lots of green space for public use ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,286 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    fresca wrote: »
    My understanding here is that a major issue is the amount of land that the Cork County Board want in order to development a training pitch next to Pairc Ui Chiomh. If the council sell the land to the GAA, then it will reduce the amount of land zoned for public recreation (i could be wrong on that - but that's my understanding from a local person).

    Personally, I think that Cork County Board should look at developing a major training ground away from the environs of PuC altogether.

    Right on both accounts. The first issue, with regard to the amount of land that the county board want for the training pitch, the land was purchased by the council in order to provide a public park and recreational facilities. The council has agreed to sell enough land to the GAA to allow them to build a training pitch but afaik this would be in breach of the terms of the original purchase agreement (when the council purchased it). The council cannot just decide that they want to sell the land purchased for public use to another party who will profit from the deal. I am a huge GAA fan and play myself but the council would not be allowed to sell the land to a property developer so I dont see why they should be allowed to sell it to the GAA, especially when it is at the expense of a public amenity. There has been talk of legal challenges to the sale on these grounds but lets hope the county board and county council see sense and drop the idea before they run up a huge legal bill for us to pick up.

    Secondly, regarding developing a major training ground away from PuC, this is exactly what they should do. They will only have one training pitch at PuC and this will only be used as a warm up pitch if built. The county board say they want to develop a centre of excellence there but in that case they will need a lot more then one pitch (main PuC pitch would not be used for training in order to maintain the surfaces). Carlow county board announced plans to develop a centre of excellence with three full sized pitches. Cork has a much bigger GAA playing population and is competitive in mens football, hurling and ladies football and camogie so they would need many more than just one pitch. If they are allowed to build the second pitch the county board will look to develop a proper centre of excellence outside the city in a few years time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,977 ✭✭✭ Chris_5339762


    Absolutely no way this is going anywhere any time soon. They pissed and farted around and look what we got. Nothing.

    Also, the local whingers will get the two towers removed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 577 Typewriter


    ...and all that could have been.

    picture.php?albumid=378&pictureid=6944

    picture.php?albumid=378&pictureid=6943

    picture.php?albumid=378&pictureid=6942

    picture.php?albumid=378&pictureid=6941

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  • Registered Users Posts: 577 Typewriter


    picture.php?albumid=378&pictureid=6933

    picture.php?albumid=378&pictureid=6932

    picture.php?albumid=378&pictureid=6931

    picture.php?albumid=378&pictureid=6929

    picture.php?albumid=378&pictureid=6928

    picture.php?albumid=378&pictureid=6927

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    picture.php?albumid=378&pictureid=6383

    picture.php?albumid=378&pictureid=1919


    ;)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 488 ✭✭ fresca


    I have heard that the CCB are talking about 7 pitches in their centre of excellence. there's no way they will fit all of them into the area around PuC
    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    Right on both accounts. The first issue, with regard to the amount of land that the county board want for the training pitch, the land was purchased by the council in order to provide a public park and recreational facilities. The council has agreed to sell enough land to the GAA to allow them to build a training pitch but afaik this would be in breach of the terms of the original purchase agreement (when the council purchased it). The council cannot just decide that they want to sell the land purchased for public use to another party who will profit from the deal. I am a huge GAA fan and play myself but the council would not be allowed to sell the land to a property developer so I dont see why they should be allowed to sell it to the GAA, especially when it is at the expense of a public amenity. There has been talk of legal challenges to the sale on these grounds but lets hope the county board and county council see sense and drop the idea before they run up a huge legal bill for us to pick up.

    Secondly, regarding developing a major training ground away from PuC, this is exactly what they should do. They will only have one training pitch at PuC and this will only be used as a warm up pitch if built. The county board say they want to develop a centre of excellence there but in that case they will need a lot more then one pitch (main PuC pitch would not be used for training in order to maintain the surfaces). Carlow county board announced plans to develop a centre of excellence with three full sized pitches. Cork has a much bigger GAA playing population and is competitive in mens football, hurling and ladies football and camogie so they would need many more than just one pitch. If they are allowed to build the second pitch the county board will look to develop a proper centre of excellence outside the city in a few years time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭ ForiegnNational


    Sat here overlooking Cork Docklands as I write, nothing at all will happen until the existing hazardous facilities are moved out.

    If you read the SEVESCO findings (which ignores the flour mill, which is also known for it's explosive properties), nothing should be developed in the docklands area until all of these companies have been relocated.

    I am not sure which developer would have the finance to take the job on, but to have to also finance the construction of two oil depots on top of the cost of clean-up and then development would mean that it is simply not economically viable to develop on this ground at present.

    Granted, large cities such as New York, London and even Dublin have redeveloped brown field sites, but with 64 years worth of zoned land already available in Cork County, who would try to take on the necessary high-density development required to make this area feasible.

    There are already one brand new office block and one 1990's block vacant on the Monahan Road running beside the site, so quite who they are hoping to move into the new shiny office blocks quite bewilders me!


  • Registered Users Posts: 577 Typewriter


    corkDocklandsHowardHoldingsPlan.jpg€750m Cork Marina project promises to create 1,200 jobs

    By Eoin English
    Wednesday, August 11, 2010
    A MASSIVE €750 million regeneration project for one of the country’s most iconic industrial sites was unveiled last night with the promise of up to 1,200 construction jobs.
    The redevelopment of the 24-acre Marina Commercial Park (MCP) in the heart of Cork city’s docklands is expected to create a further 5,000 jobs once completed.

    It has the largest private river frontage in Cork city and has 500,000 square feet of buildings with 150 businesses on site, employing approximately 1,500 people.

    MCP director Gerry Wycherley said he wants to establish a vibrant, socially inclusive community within the city’s south docklands, where people will live, work and enjoy their leisure time.

    "We are confident that our proposed development will provide significant economic and employment benefit for the people of Cork into the future," he said.

    The proposed development features:

    * More than 800 apartments, providing homes for up to 2,230 people.

    * A marina where they can park their boats.

    * A range of community amenities.

    * A visitor and science centre, the Ford Experience, which is expected to attract up to 300,000 visitors annually.

    * A new central plaza to provide a hub for the community, including a creche and library.

    City manager Joe Gavin said: "This 24-acre site is at the heart of Cork’s docklands and the announcement is a crucial step in realising Cork City Council’s vision for the whole docklands area."

    This story appeared in the printed version of the Irish Examiner Wednesday, August 11, 2010
    Not so dead in the water then.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,235 ✭✭✭ D.L.R.


    Well the Seltic Tiger sure gave plenty of business to the glossy brochure industry. Ireland looks like a nice sunny place too.

    What's "bulls**t" as gaeilge?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭ Amtmann


    Not so dead in the water then.
    Interesting.... but no indication of dates at all.


  • Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭ ForiegnNational


    The article is regarding the 24-acre (9 hectares) Marina Commercial Park element of the whole 162 hectare project, which is located between the ESB power station and the flour mill. It does not cover the Marina or Marina park (Páirc Uí Chaoimh).

    I still have reservations about the location, right across the road from the SVESCO sites, and we have shown that the "if you build it, they will come" days are far behind us, but anything that improves the area has to be good.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 BluntGuy


    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0811/1224276546590.html
    The depressed state of the market means it could be several years, however, before the project proceeds, the developer said yesterday. Businessman Gerry Wycherley said the decision to apply for planning permission to develop the 24-acre site at the Marina Commercial Park had been taken in preparation for an improvement in the market over the next five to 10 years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,110 KevR


    Anyone know what the planned height of those tall-looking buildings is (i.e. - floors and metres)?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,419 tommy21


    KevR wrote: »
    Anyone know what the planned height of those tall-looking buildings is (i.e. - floors and metres)?

    I'd say about 0 metres. Can't see any re-development happening, at least in the next 5 years. I wish they bloody would, I overlook the docks!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭ Amtmann


    O’Keeffe insists Cork docklands project a ‘priority’
    By Eoin English - Thursday, July 29, 2010

    THE regeneration of Cork’s sprawling docklands remains a government priority, the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Innovation insisted yesterday.

    The project will be discussed by the Cabinet in early September — the first meeting after the summer recess, Batt O’Keeffe revealed.

    He was reacting to Fine Gael criticism of Dublin bias in the €39 billion Infrastructure Investment Priorities 2010-2016, announced on Monday.

    Senator Jerry Buttimer said there are many developments in Cork which will require a significant amount of investment if they are to be implemented.

    "It is questionable however, whether these project will now go ahead," he said.

    He singled out the upgrades of the N25 Cork southern ring road, the N28 Cork to Ringaskiddy road, and funding for the Cork Docklands Eastern Gateway Bridge project.

    "Economic studies have shown that if the Government invests in the region to the tune of €120 million to €200m, dividends of up to €680m can be obtained for the local economy per year," he said.

    But Mr O’Keeffe said just because Cork projects didn’t feature in Monday’s announcement doesn’t mean that funding won’t be forthcoming.

    More funding will be announced as the plan is rolled out, he said.

    "The Government is committed to the docklands development. You can be sure that Minister Micheál Martin and myself will be to the forefront in ensuring that Cork gets its fair share," he said.

    The minister was speaking before briefing the Brazilian Ambassador to Ireland, Pedro Fernando Brêtas Bastos, and João Carlos Parkinson de Castro, the head of the Economic and Trade Sections at the Brazilian embassy, at City Hall in Cork.

    They were in the city to investigate potential locations for Brazilian companies to locate in Europe.

    The briefing, attended by city manager Joe Gavin, representatives from Cork County Council, UCC, the Port of Cork and Cork Chamber, included presentations on the docklands vision and outlined the infrastructure and facilities available in the Cork Metropolitan Area.

    Lord Mayor Michael O’Connell said it provided an excellent opportunity to showcase Cork as an excellent location for investment.

    Mr O’Keeffe stressed the region’s road, rail and port infrastructure, its skilled workforce, the strengths of its third-level institutions, and highlighted the Tyndall’s reputation for research, development and innovation.

    "We see Brazil as being a key area for our trade exploration in to the future," he said.

    The minister also plans to lead a trade delegation to Brazil in the autumn to strengthen trade links.
    http://www.examiner.ie/text/ireland/kfcwgbeykfau/


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,043 ✭✭✭ AugustusMinimus


    IMO, the Elysian should never have been left go ahead.

    Instead, an area of the docklands should have been set aside for all the highrise developments in the city. The Elysian is out of place. Having maybe 4 or 5 highrise buildings beside each other would have looked much better and would be the focal point for the entire redevelopment.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 DWCommuter


    One tiny part of the above article is all I want to quote.
    its fair share

    Herein lies Irelands problem.

    "Fair" is a good idea, but when combined with "share", its a very definately bad idea.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,967 ✭✭✭✭ RoundyMooney


    From a rail perspective, the best thing they could do, obviously the money isn't forthcoming for it atm, is proceed with the Horgan's quay redevelopment of the train station.

    Even on a smaller scale, such as providing an entrance directly on to the quays, would make a big difference in usability, and may have a beneficial effect down the line on commuter service, both existing and planned.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,725 ✭✭✭ charlemont


    IMO, the Elysian should never have been left go ahead.

    Instead, an area of the docklands should have been set aside for all the highrise developments in the city. The Elysian is out of place. Having maybe 4 or 5 highrise buildings beside each other would have looked much better and would be the focal point for the entire redevelopment.

    the elysian is a nice building , im looking at it right now, i live very near it, but i agree with your comment about having 4/5 high rises beside each other, if the county council hadn't allowed such development in the suburbs , the city could have got people back in to the city itself and the docklands could have thrived but i fear myself nothing will ever come of it...


  • Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭ ForiegnNational


    The only signs of economic recovery in Cork Docklands at present is yet another batch of vehicles for Semi-State bodies (ESB this time - interesting to note, each has a numberplate registered in different counties!) having arrived at the Ford importer.

    Both of the "new" (built in the last five years) office blocks remain stubbornly empty on Monahan Road and the Portacabin's are piling up in the yard there, which shows there is no demands for site offices at present...

    As another poster put it, Corks requirement for a "fair share" is absolute hogwash, it is about demand, nothing to do with an equitable share! Currently the Elysian remains mostly empty, with only one or two odd flats being inhabited. As the developer themselves states, I can't currently see any demand for the new buildings for quite some time...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭ Amtmann


    ..
    State could save €177m on cost of docklands plan

    By Eoin English
    Wednesday, January 26, 2011

    THE state could save €177 million in building costs if it invests now in vital infrastructure to kickstart Cork’s multi-billion docklands regeneration.

    Read more: http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/state-could-save-177m-on-cost-of-docklands-plan-143198.html#ixzz1C6ToQmfY

    It could save €20m alone on one of the most important projects — the Eastern Gateway Bridge — which was priced in 2007 at €80m but which could, because of the downturn, be built today for €60m.

    The savings emerged following a preliminary review of providing infrastructure in docklands as part of a renewed effort by city officials to secure exchequer funding to facilitate development.

    The ambitious redevelopment of the 400-acre region is one of the state’s biggest urban regeneration projects.

    If it goes ahead as planned, the population of Cork docklands will increase from 500 to about 22,000 over 20 years. The regeneration is expected to create approximately 27,000 new jobs.

    But state funding issues have stalled the delivery of bridges and roads which are vital to open the area up for development.

    In an update briefing to city councillors on Monday, city manager Tim Lucey said a new funding mechanism will have to be found following the scrapping of the Gateway Innovation Fund (GIF).

    The GIF was set up to target major projects between 2008-2010 to stimulate development in the so-called Gateway cities.

    Cork City Council submitted a number of projects for consideration.

    The Eastern Gateway Bridge, to link Tivoli to the south docks, and its associated approach roads, totalling some €80m at the time, were the city’s top priority.

    However, as the recession deepened and the state’s finances began to collapse, GIF was deferred.

    There is no mention of GIF funding in the Government’s National Recovery Plan 2011-2014.

    "In view of the certainty around GIF, and the continued need to initially secure funds of about €2.5m to progress the design of the Eastern Gateway Bridge, such allocation is likely from the Department of Transport pending decisions on the innovation fund," Mr Lucey said.

    "Accordingly, I have advised that department of the need for such funding to be considered as part of their decisions on road grant allocations.

    "The economic case required to support the project application to the GIF in 2007 continues to be robust, regardless of which government department considers its merits.

    "Indeed, at current estimated cost of €60m as opposed to the original GIF application cost of €80m, the case for investment in this bridge, and its associated approach roads, is further strengthened."

    The Cork Docklands Development Forum recommends the state spend an estimated €615m on essential infrastructure and suggests the long-term benefits would out-weigh the short-term costs.

    Mr Lucey said a preliminary review conducted by his officials, based on current and projected infrastructure development costs, shows a reduction in those costs of about €177m — or 25% — from €709m to €532m.

    More sophisticated financial modelling is being undertaken by the Docklands Directorate.

    Mr Lucey briefed Department of the Environment officials before Christmas on the progress the city council and private landowners have made in progressing the docklands project.

    Councillors agreed to defer a debate on the manager’s update until the next council meeting in just under two weeks.

    This appeared in the printed version of the Irish Examiner Wednesday, January 26, 2011


    Read more: http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/state-could-save-177m-on-cost-of-docklands-plan-143198.html#ixzz1C6SqSrDO


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,033 ✭✭✭ murphym7


    So it will only cost 532 million now - what a steal, lets start building tonight after work!:P

    This development is a joke - even in the alledged boom, it was too big and ambitious. We are a small city - how would we ever fill it, what business would be atracted to it, who the hell would ever live there. The Elysian is almost completely empty and to be honest boom or no boom, I still do not think it was ever going to fill. We are not city living people, Cork is like a ghost town Sun - Thur nights. I would not fancy living there.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭ Amtmann


    1453 Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny has told businessmen in Cork his party will give full backing to the development of a major project in the city's docklands that could create thousands of jobs, and rival the IFSC in Dublin or Silicon Valley in California.

    A economic assesment is to be carried out by Fine Gael in Government of possible options - that could range from financial services, to pharmaceucticals or software and technology development.

    Speaking at the Silver Springs Convention centre Mr Kenny said : 'This is a great city, this is a great county. We would like you to know our vision for Cork can be signalled by an economic assessment which we have agreed to with part of the owners of the Cork Docklands about its future potential.
    'That it might deliver in terms of thousands of jobs for Munster. To create a real flagship here in the south which will rival in many ways the IFSC in Dublin or other flagship enterprises in other European countries.'
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0218/election_tracker.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭ Amtmann


    Saw this on the Cork City forum:
    namloc1980 wrote: »
    The City Council have granted planning permission for a massive development in the Docklands on a site of about 24 acres. This is the description of the development:
    A ten year permission for development at a 9.43 hectare site, consisting of a mixed use development comprising:

    - 880 residential units (105,237 sqm approx) (including 11 No. live-work units);
    - 60,952 sqm of office accom;
    - 18,617 sqm of business technology/research accom;
    - 11,880 sqm of retail use;
    - 1,158 sqm of commercial use, as well as a range of trade retail, retail warehousing, conference facilities, licenced bars/restaurants, library, cultural, civic, childcare, healthcare facilities & ancillary uses (242,353 sqm gfa), over 5 No. basements (72,364 sqm) (some of which are inter-connected by tunnel), ranging in depth from 1 No. to 2 No. basement levels, including the demolition of structures on site.
    - The development will also consist of: the provision of a total of 2,960 No. car parking spaces (2,230 No. car parking spaces in basement car parks 1A, 1B, 2, 3, 4 & 5; 710 No. car parking spaces in Block K2; & 20 No. surface car parking spaces); 313 No. motorcycle parking spaces;& 1,690 No. cycle spaces;
    - private, semi-private & public open spaces in the form of balconies, courtyards, roof terraces, allotments, roof-top gardens, a portion of the Riverside Walkway, a public plaza (Central Square) & a park (Community Gardens);
    - the provision of external circulation areas; an outdoor amphitheatre adjacent to Block O, external corridors; covered & open pedestrian streets; footpaths & roads; all hard & soft landscaping including boundary treatments;]

    Marina_Commercial.jpg

    Business-and-Technology-Image-2.jpg

    District-Centre-2.jpg

    There are two big pre-conditions though before any development can commence:
    1. The Eastern Gateway Bridge must be built first, and,
    2. The market must have improved sufficiently for this amount of property to come on stream.


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