What is the Gov. stake in the various banks up to now?

Stabshauptmann

I've been googling and just wanted to make sure I had the details right.

AIB - 18% ord shares, €3.5bn pref shares
AIB needs to raise €7.4 billion in new capital before year end or ask for further state aid

BoI - 16% ord shares, €3.5bn pref shares

INBS - 100% at a cost of €2.6bn

EBS - 51% at a cost of €100m, and a promise of a further €900m if needed

Anglo - 100%
€1.5bn for a 75% stake in December 08
Cost of Nationalisation Jan 09 - ?
Capital injection - ~€10bn


Are these figures right? Anyone care to add any detail

Scarab80

AIB - 18% ord shares, €3.5bn pref shares@ 8%
- Warrants over 25% of the stock at strike prices between 97.5c and 37.5c
AIB needs to raise €7.4 billion in new capital before year end or ask for further state aid - 7.4 billion will include a rights issue where the government will convert preference shares into ordinary shares

BoI - 36% ord shares, €1.837bn pref shares @ 10.25%
542 million received for redemption of warrants and arrangement fees.

INBS - 100% at a cost of €2.7bn
100 million paid so far
2.6bn to be financed over 10yrs through promissory notes

EBS - 51% at a cost of €100m, and a promise of a further €775m if needed

Anglo - 100%
€1.5bn for a 75% stake in December 08 - planned investment, made irrelevant by nationalisation
Cost of Nationalisation Jan 09 - 4bn cash
Capital injection - ~€8.3bn issued by promissory note at end of March 2010, with expectation of a further 10bn, 2bn of this promised in April and expect to see another 4bn when tranche 2 transfers to NAMA

ei.sdraob

dont forget the 10-12 billion to Anglo from the Central Bank

and the 20 odd billion they getting from NAMA

Scarab80

ei.sdraob wrote: »

dont forget the 10-12 billion to Anglo from the Central Bank

and the 20 odd billion they getting from NAMA

The central bank money is covered by recapitalisation funds, you can't double count. The same with the NAMA bonds, they only cost where NAMA makes a loss on the loans.

Stabshauptmann

Scarab80 wrote: »

AIB - 18% ord shares, €3.5bn pref shares@ 8%
- Warrants over 25% of the stock at strike prices between 97.5c and 37.5c
AIB needs to raise €7.4 billion in new capital before year end or ask for further state aid - 7.4 billion will include a rights issue where the government will convert preference shares into ordinary shares

BoI - 36% ord shares, €1.837bn pref shares @ 10.25%
542 million received for redemption of warrants and arrangement fees.

INBS - 100% at a cost of €2.7bn
100 million paid so far
2.6bn to be financed over 10yrs through promissory notes

EBS - 51% at a cost of €100m, and a promise of a further €775m if needed

Anglo - 100%
€1.5bn for a 75% stake in December 08 - planned investment, made irrelevant by nationalisation
Cost of Nationalisation Jan 09 - 4bn cash
Capital injection - ~€8.3bn issued by promissory note at end of March 2010, with expectation of a further 10bn, 2bn of this promised in April and expect to see another 4bn when tranche 2 transfers to NAMA

Thanks, thats a very helpful post.

So, Gov. invested €3.5bn into both AIB and BoI.
Dividents on these pref shares couldnt be paid in cash because of EU rules, so the Gov. got shares worth approx 16% in both banks.

As part of BoI recapitalisation / restructuring plan approx half pref shares are converted into ord. shares.

INBS is €2.7bn and EBS is between €0.1bn - €0.9bn.

Thats €10bn - €10.5bn so far, with a good chance of recovering (some/)the BoI and AIB money somewhere down the line.

Anglo has cost €12.3bn so far, and estimates atm are that it will cost at least another €10bn.

Oh well, at least ILP and Postbank haven't cost us anything yet

ei.sdraob

Scarab80 wrote: »

The central bank money is covered by recapitalisation funds, you can't double count. The same with the NAMA bonds, they only cost where NAMA makes a loss on the loans.

So some of the money the govt gave was to cover the central bank loan?

Postbank haven't cost us anything yet

Fortis who owned Postbank were bailed out by Benelux states back in 08

Then sold onto BNP Paribas in 09

who are now closing the bank here before 10

Scarab80

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

Thanks, thats a very helpful post.

So, Gov. invested €3.5bn into both AIB and BoI.
Dividents on these pref shares couldnt be paid in cash because of EU rules, so the Gov. got shares worth approx 16% in both banks.

As part of BoI recapitalisation / restructuring plan approx half pref shares are converted into ord. shares.

INBS is €2.7bn and EBS is between €0.1bn - €0.9bn.

Thats €10bn - €10.5bn so far, with a good chance of recovering (some/)the BoI and AIB money somewhere down the line.

Anglo has cost €12.3bn so far, and estimates atm are that it will cost at least another €10bn.

Oh well, at least ILP and Postbank haven't cost us anything yet

Yep that's pretty much it.....

Anglo is 14.3bn so far, 4 + 8.3 + 2.

BOI and AIB are currently yielding a 900m profit at todays market prices.

There is also 1bn to be received in relation to the guarantee scheme later this year.

Scarab80

ei.sdraob wrote: »

So some of the money the govt gave was to cover the central bank loan?

The central bank are a creditor to Anglo. The recapitalisation costs ensure that Anglo is solvent with the required capital buffer (ie. are able to pay off all of their creditors)

ei.sdraob

Scarab80 wrote: »

Yep that's pretty much it.....

Anglo is 14.3bn so far, 4 + 8.3 + 2.

BOI and AIB are currently yielding a 900m profit at todays market prices.

There is also 1bn to be received in relation to the guarantee scheme later this year.

For the money spend on these banks we could have completely nationalised them

Then merged them all (BOI,AIB,Anglo,etc etc) into a new Bank For Ireland fired half the staff, thousands of whom are being made redundant anyways now, close and sell half the branches especially the more desirable addresses, since they be redundant

basically make it a mean lean banking machine and then flog it off in few years

while at the same time doing everything to get other banks to come to Ireland, like offering tax incentives (or give away the Anglo building ) etc

tho of course im no fan of nationalisation and know well it be ripe for screwup but by this stage we are so deep in ****, why not

Stabshauptmann

ei.sdraob wrote: »

For the money spend on these banks we could have completely nationalised them.

For the money spent on INBS, EBS and Anglo, we have completely nationalised them

You are right in that the Gov. could have simply bought all the shares in BoI or AIB for €3.5bn (at todays market capitalisation BoI is worth €4.56bn and AIB €0.87bn.

However, on top of the price of the shares the Gov would still need top up their Own Funds (capital required by EU regulations), which is where the €7bn has actually gone.

Besides Im not sure what the gov would be forced to pay for the compulsory purchase of an, arguably, viable business.

Then merged them all (BOI,AIB,Anglo,etc etc) into a new Bank For Ireland

The EU wouldnt allow it. The plan was however to merge EBS, INBS and ILP into "a third force" in Irish banking

fired half the staff, thousands of whom are being made redundant anyways now, close and sell half the branches especially the more desirable addresses, since they be redundant

basically make it a mean lean banking machine and then flog it off in few years

Glad that didnt happen tbh. Closures and redundancies does not sound like good news to me.

ei.sdraob

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

The EU wouldnt allow it. The plan was however to merge EBS, INBS and ILP into "a third force" in Irish banking

Ah yes EU politics, something our politicians could have learned from the Greeks

Either bail us out or we would stand back and let our banks scupper your eurozone, watch the mandarins run around then waving hands in air as they did with Greeks

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

Glad that didnt happen tbh. Closures and redundancies does not sound like good news to me.

But it is happening, the Irish banks in current state are alot larger than needs to be for a population of 4.5 million of the most indebted people in the world, to whom they wont be loaning much anytime soon


hey as i said earlier im no fan of nationalisation and too much intervention, but by this stage we are in deep poop due to all sorts of half measures and wrong decisions that any quick tough action that resolve this banking conundrum is better



....edit: basically i am with Peter Matthews idea here which he laid out very well > http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=31830

Stabshauptmann

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Ah yes EU politics, something our politicians could have learned from the Greeks

Im not sure what we could learn from the greeks to be honest.

Either bail us out or we would stand back and let our banks scupper your eurozone

I couldnt support such a policy at all.

[edit] As for Peter Mathews; as far as Im concerned hes a populist.
He omits a lot from his arguements, and frankly his "alternative" to NAMA is pretty much whats already happening:
-robustly writing down the bad loans NAMA is writting them down to the tune of approx 50%. See AIB earnings released today.
-recapitalise the banks;Em, where has he been? Funnily enough thats what this thread is about, how much has already been spent on recapitalisation...
-bring about temporary majority ownership and control of the banks by the state via a state investment trust holding company;Why? I just dont see the point. It would be very costly to nationalise AIB and BoI. And anglo is going so well. How many examples to we have in Ireland of efficent, productive state companies, compared to how many wasteful, bloated, inefficient ones
-and draw up new boards for the banks A) Under the gov. guarentee the gov. has appointed directors to the banks, the FR is reserving the right to approve / reject directorships in regulated banks