Authenticity of the Togakure-ryū ninpo?

Scubadevils

I lurk here from time to time but rarely (never!) post Anyway... I hope this isn't too controversial or that I offend anyone. I did a search and couldn't find a previous thread or conversation, apologies if it has and I didn't find it.

I've trained in Bujinkan but took a break for a few years... just started going again and I'm enjoying my training... (I think, and the reason is below).

One of the reasons for selecting this was from childhood fascination with ninja and when I found details of the Bujinkan a few years ago, it seemed a good place to go. I have read most of Hatsumis books and continued with further reading elsewhere into other areas such as Qiqong etc which are also of huge interest to me.

Reading into the history of ninpo etc has really sparked an interest into delving further into Japanese history and also learning more about other arts from Japan and China in particular. I set about some research over the last week and have spent a lot of time online reading various detail from forums around the world and also watching many clips on youtube - the latter is where things started to go wrong! I read a comment on an old video clip of Takamatsu Sensei which basically questioned the authenticity of the Togakure-ryū ninpo and suggested that Takamatsu basically made it all up and there is no proof of his Sensei, Toda ever existing... further reading seems to back this up and puts serious doubt into my mind as to whether I want to continue training in the Bujinkan... not just because of a question around the lineage, but some more recent comments around the whole 'marketing' element of ninpo in the 80s by Stephen Hayes and also dare I say it, Hatsumi himself.

Now this is all 'internet' reading and I really don't know what to make of it, but it certainly seems convincing.

Any opinions or has this ever been raised before?

Links for further reading... allow some time to read these if it's of interest, as there is a lot to digest.

http://sustainedreaction.yuku.com/topic/5540

http://martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86901

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=46037&page=3

Again, I don't want to offend anyone here, just keen to hear peoples views on this. I appreciate that Takamatsu Sensei is no doubt an amazing martial artist, as is Hatsumi, just a hard thing to take when there is questions around the authenticity. Or am I being silly?

Cheers...

Dyr

Given that the bujinkan is supposed to be a 60 bazillion year old tradition (possible exaggeration) which, in my lifetime, i've seen shift from being a school for mystical assasins to urban survival to a classical martial art I'd take it all with a pinch of salt...in one of them funky pipes for blowing into peoples eyes :pac:

SBG Ireland

lol at my response being deleted! although this will also probably be deleted by the thought police haha

Doug Cartel

SBG Ireland wrote: »

lol at my response being deleted! although this will also probably be deleted by the thought police haha

Ninja vanish!

FruitLover

Scubadevils wrote: »

puts serious doubt into my mind as to whether I want to continue training in the Bujinkan
...
Takamatsu Sensei is no doubt an amazing martial artist, as is Hatsumi, just a hard thing to take when there is questions around the authenticity

Who cares? Had you really convinced yourself that you were training to be an actual "ninja" in some sports hall in Dublin in the 21st century? If you enjoy the training and it's effective, that's what's important.

arybvtcw0eolkf

SBG Ireland wrote: »

lol at my response being deleted! although this will also probably be deleted by the thought police haha

Are you positive you posted?.

I can see (not using my Ninja skillz) any thread which has been deleted or modified in anyway and there's no trace of an earlier post in this thread being deleted.

SBG Ireland

yup, 1:30am....i pretty much just asked what 'fruit lover' asked....ie who cares if 'Takamatsu basically made it all up' or that he was a 'marketing ninja' as long as he enjoyed the training....not like he's going to be sent to assassinate somebody!

arybvtcw0eolkf

SBG Ireland wrote: »

yup, 1:30am....i pretty much just asked what 'fruit lover' asked....ie who cares if 'Takamatsu basically made it all up' or that he was a 'marketing ninja' as long as he enjoyed the training....not like he's going to be sent to assassinate somebody!

Honestly there's nothing there!.

Like I said if anything is deleted the mod's still have access to it in case there's a dispute and its to be returned to the thread.

In this case there's no trace of a post.

SBG Ireland

damn ninjas!

arybvtcw0eolkf

SBG Ireland wrote: »

damn ninjas!

Fvcker's the lot of 'em.

But seriously there's no shananigan's.

Peetrik

Similar experience myself, had been very keen to learn to be a Ninja, could very well have just been the place I trained at but after 3 months I knew it wasnt for me. No sparring, techniques that I am quite sure half of which they made up on the day and none of which involved actually being hit (which IS going to happen in any fight).

Again Ill stress it could very well just have been where I tried it.

corkma

I tried nimpo and quickly decided it wasnt for me. there was too much bull****. that said, if you enjoy it, who cares if the history is suspect. every style has a dubious history to be honest, the famous masters in everything are very pr savvy. if it does bother you though, you could find a classical jujuitsu club where the training would be similiar. or even an aikido club

Scubadevils

Thanks for the comments, and yeah you are all right, I will never be a true ninja.... damn :pac:

Nah but I do enjoy the training, just p*ssed me off to find that info having only just finished another book by Hatsumi... good to know that they all spruce up their backgrounds to a degree.

Think I might take a few months off and wander through the mountains in Japan and find a ninja master to pass on his skills.

corkma

If it's a good club and you enjoy it, it's not worth worrying about it. Studying the mythology can be interesting but don't let it spoil your training

paganist

http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/index_e.html
http://www.jujutsu.com/jujutsu/htm/english.htm
http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/impact_e.htm

if you spend some time rooting around the above links you will start to find some stuff

Scubadevils

paganist wrote: »

http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/index_e.html
http://www.jujutsu.com/jujutsu/htm/english.htm
http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/impact_e.htm

if you spend some time rooting around the above links you will start to find some stuff

Thanks for those, looks like a lot more to read through there!