UPC DOCSIS 3.0 Fair Use

cros13

Hi all,

I'm considering moving into Dublin City this October. At the moment I have 50 Mbit FTTH from Magnet. Most of the apartments I'm looking at have UPC Cable available.
The thing is my average monthly data usage at home is ~500GB per month which Magnet has never had a problem with (I'm not subject to a fair use policy).
I have no problem paying a couple of hundred euro a month extra if a can be guaranteed that:
1. I won't be cut off
2. I pay a flat fee.

My only backup plan at the moment is recording an oral amendment to the contract when I sign up with UPC over the phone and suing for breach of contract if they cause trouble.

Can anyone with any experience of UPC offer any guidance?

Karmafaerie

You do know that if you're going to record the conversation you have to also record yourself advissing the customer service agent that you're recording it right, otherwise it means nothing.

Just like they have to advise you that they're recording, so do you.

MunsterCycling

Simple to do, just babble it at the very beginning of the call just like most CSRs do when saying their name, completely covers you.

Karmafaerie

MunsterCycling wrote: »

Simple to do, just babble it at the very beginning of the call just like most CSRs do when saying their name, completely covers you.

Nope.
They have to acknowledge it.

You have to say clearly that you're recording and if you want it to stand up in court you need them to verbally acknowledge that they are aware of this.

Stupid I know, but that's how it is.

And bear in mind that seeing as they record conversations also, they'll have the exact same call on record.

Call centers started recording all calls to cover themselves more so than to help the customer.

Sponge Bob

UPC will have a recording of you asking them "is it unlimited?" and them lying back to you saying "it is" . The contract depends on the recording.

shinzon

so let me get this straight, you want to throw a couple hundred euro extra to upc so they can bend the terms and Conditions so you can download what you like and be damned with everyone else, and if they dont do that youll sue them

thx for the laugh

Shin

Sponge Bob

Ahh he won't end up being able _sue_ them, he will just get out of the contract early with no penalties and go to Magnet

Karmafaerie

Sponge Bob wrote: »

UPC will have a recording of you asking them "is it unlimited?" and them lying back to you saying "it is" . The contract depends on the recording.

Yes, and they will also have his signature on the docking slip stating that he read the terms and conditions which state that the "Unlimited" limit is subject to an AUP.

Companies like UPC have lots of solicitors, and know how to cover themselves.
You're not gonna trick them into something by recording a phone conversation.


OP, as has been stated dozens of times here before - despite the way it's ignored by a lot of posters everytime - UPC have an "unlimited" package as if you're not in a congested area you'll never hear from them.
Loads of people have stated that they download and upload hundreds of gigs a month and have never heard from UPC, while other people do recieve letters when they reach the 250GB mark.

There is no invisible margin as some imply, unless your downloading effects others, as in utilization/congestion.


But as is the law on the internet, people only talk about it when it effects them.
So we end up with a lobsided view of things.

cros13

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Yes, and they will also have his signature on the docking slip stating that he read the terms and conditions which state that the "Unlimited" limit is subject to an AUP.

And I can also copy those terms and conditions, amend them as agreed and return by registered post. I am aware of the law in relation to this.

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Companies like UPC have lots of solicitors, and know how to cover themselves.
You're not gonna trick them into something by recording a phone conversation.

I didn't suggest "tricking" anyone. I'm aware of the law in regards to recording phone calls.

Karmafaerie wrote: »

OP, as has been stated dozens of times here before - despite the way it's ignored by a lot of posters everytime - UPC have an "unlimited" package as if you're not in a congested area you'll never hear from them.
Loads of people have stated that they download and upload hundreds of gigs a month and have never heard from UPC, while other people do recieve letters when they reach the 250GB mark.

There is no invisible margin as some imply, unless your downloading effects others, as in utilization/congestion.


But as is the law on the internet, people only talk about it when it effects them.
So we end up with a lobsided view of things.

I'm a network engineer. Even given my monthly usage with the contention ratios UPC mention (17:1) there should be no issue unless there is a bandwidth bottleneck further upstream.
Remember that given 30Mbps of bandwidth, 500GB is less than 5% of line capacity. I shouldn't even use my "share" of bandwidth on the local cable loop.
All I'm really doing is rsyncing my home server to work so I'm hardly using any of the more sparse upstream bandwidth.

Sponge Bob

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Yes, and they will also have his signature on the docking slip stating that he read the terms and conditions which state that the "Unlimited" limit is subject to an AUP.

Companies like UPC have lots of solicitors, and know how to cover themselves.
You're not gonna trick them into something by recording a phone conversation.

They record the conversation, you ask for a copy of it if there is a dispute. Not a judge in Ireland will find against you if you ask on that recording "is it unlimited" and the sales monkey says "yes", "are you positive" "yes".

UPC have an "unlimited" package as if you're not in a congested area you'll never hear from them.
Loads of people have stated that they download and upload hundreds of gigs a month and have never heard from UPC, while other people do recieve letters when they reach the 250GB mark.

That is a lottery not a package...but you are correct in saying that limits are enforced very arbitrarily according to the state of the network.

But always remember that if the recording shows the sales monkey wilfully misled the end user then the contract can easily be voided for misrepresentation .

Buying off ISPs is a matter for the unfair contracts directive of 1993

"Whereas the consumer must receive equal protection under contracts concluded by word of mouth and written contracts regardless, in the latter case, of whether the terms of the contract are contained in one or more documents"

and the Distance Selling Directive of 1997 too.

cros13

Sponge Bob wrote: »

That is a lottery not a package...but you are correct in saying that limits are enforced very arbitrarily according to the state of the network.

Sponge Bob hit the nail on the head here. My primary concern is the uncertainty over whether they cut me off or impose arbitrary bandwidth limitations.
I'm willing to do whatever is required to avoid that situation.

Cabaal

cros13 wrote: »

My only backup plan at the moment is recording an oral amendment to the contract when I sign up with UPC over the phone and suing for breach of contract if they cause trouble.

You'll be laughed at, UPC's written contract over rules anything an agent may say...at the end of the day the outcome of a dispute is them terminating the service. There's no law that says they MUST provide you with a service.

Both you and me know you won't sue for breach of contract so why kid yourself? The costs involved don't make it workable, again any attempts to try such a thing will simply result in UPC ending the agreement and rightly so.

cros13 wrote: »

<SNIP> My primary concern is the uncertainty over whether they cut me off or impose arbitrary bandwidth limitations.
I'm willing to do whatever is required to avoid that situation.

So don't break there T&C's then?
You say your a network engineer, so say you have a user policy for people connecting to a network you operate, a user breaks this and you have a policy of limiting their connection or whatever. Think its ok for the user to create their own policy?

Its UPC's network, if you don't like the terms of their network then use somebody else's...

dub45

Have you approached UPC about this?

dub45

Sponge Bob wrote: »

That is a lottery not a package...but you are correct in saying that limits are enforced very arbitrarily according to the state of the network.

Surely all customers should be treated equally? Does this now mean that in addtion to UPC being allowed to redefine the English language that the meaning of 'unlimited' also depends on where you are?:rolleyes:

Sponge Bob

Cabaal wrote: »

You'll be laughed at, UPC's written contract over rules anything an agent may say

It doesn't in law. The agent must be trained on the full T&Cs and the recording IS the contract.

This is also how people get out of supposedly long mobile contracts where they were offered a new modem for better speeds only to find it was a contract extension later. We have done the nuts and bolts in the midband forum Cabaal. Anyone who asks for "the recording" usually gets released straight away

The recording proves there is no contract or no recording ( cos they lost it) proves there is no contract. Either way there is no contract.

But when the agent is specifically asked if there are limits and they lie then the contract may be voided in the small claims court and very very quickly.

UPC won't even show up for the trial, they never do.

Sponge Bob

Just to clarify a bit.

If one is assured that a service has "no limits" or is "unlimited" at a set price by a sales monkey....and one then signs up for the service , one has entered into a distance contract where nothing is signed. A recording MUST be kept to prove the contract exists

If you get a wrong bill the following month you must follow the UPC complaints procedure ( it obliges them to sort the issue within 5 working days or something) and you must formally complain AND in writing .

This complaints procedure is detailed in full here . You may complain by email.

It would be possible to sign up to UPC today , get a wrong bill by early September and complain and exit the contract by end september. If they do take any money you will get it back in the small claims court.

T&C changes will apply AFTER you accept a change in the T&Cs of course. You know that if UPC materially change their T&Cs during the contract period you may then exit their contract if you do not accept them.

dub45

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Just to clarify a bit.

If one is assured that a service has "no limits" or is "unlimited" at a set price by a sales monkey....and one then signs up for the service , one has entered into a distance contract where nothing is signed. A recording MUST be kept to prove the contract exists

If you get a wrong bill the following month you must follow the UPC complaints procedure ( it obliges them to sort the issue within 5 working days or something) and you must formally complain AND in writing .

This complaints procedure is detailed in full here . You may complain by email.

It would be possible to sign up to UPC today , get a wrong bill by early September and complain and exit the contract by end september. If they do take any money you will get it back in the small claims court.

T&C changes will apply AFTER you accept a change in the T&Cs of course. You know that if UPC materially change their T&Cs during the contract period you may then exit their contract if you do not accept them.

It should be remembered that in UPC's view Terms and Conditions apply only to the customer and not to themselves. Note their flagrant breach of their own Terms and Condtions in relation to the notificiation to customers of their increase in prices last year. They consistently breach the terms of the direct debit scheme and they refuse to comply with Comreg's policy on unlimited products. So do not rely on their staff to either know their own Terms and Conditons or to acknowledge their repsonsibilites under those terms.

watty

And the actuall T&C there is a "FUP" and the "unlimited" is about 250Gbyte on UPC. Much better than Vodafone's 10Gbyte "unlimited" or Imagine's 30Gbyte "unlimited".

dub45

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Just to clarify a bit.

If one is assured that a service has "no limits" or is "unlimited" at a set price by a sales monkey....and one then signs up for the service , one has entered into a distance contract where nothing is signed. A recording MUST be kept to prove the contract exists

If you get a wrong bill the following month you must follow the UPC complaints procedure ( it obliges them to sort the issue within 5 working days or something) and you must formally complain AND in writing .

This complaints procedure is detailed in full here . You may complain by email.

It would be possible to sign up to UPC today , get a wrong bill by early September and complain and exit the contract by end september. If they do take any money you will get it back in the small claims court.

T&C changes will apply AFTER you accept a change in the T&Cs of course. You know that if UPC materially change their T&Cs during the contract period you may then exit their contract if you do not accept them.

As a matter of interest has anyone ever been notified of of a 'material' change to their Terms and Condtions by UPC? Again any terms and conditons listed on a website or given to a customer by any isp should bear the last date of amendment. Does it ever happen:rolleyes:

Sponge Bob

watty wrote: »

Much better than Vodafone's 10Gbyte "unlimited" or Imagine's 30Gbyte "unlimited".

Voda staff will not lie about the 10GB limit if asked but UPC staff will lie about their 250gb.. After that it hinges on the dictionary meaning .....innit

dub45

watty wrote: »

And the actuall T&C there is a "FUP" and the "unlimited" is about 250Gbyte on UPC. Much better than Vodafone's 10Gbyte "unlimited" or Imagine's 30Gbyte "unlimited".

"unlimited" and "about" are incompatible! and how can one "unlimited" be better than another? This sort of nonsense only condones lying on the part of companies.

If a company advertises an unlimited product and there is a restriction on it then they are lying pure and simple and one should be condoning this practise in any way.

An unlimited product with a fup of xxxx is a product wtih cap of xxxx its as simple as that.

hightower1

I suppose if anyone has a problem with an ISP that sells an "unlimited" product in their range and has a FUP on this can speak with their wallet and not sign up with that ISP although something tells me no one screaming rally cries of unfair practice here actually has the conviction to not sign with an ISP selling an unlimited pack.... seeing as thats all of them. :rolleyes:

Speak with your wallet if you have the stomach for it and do without broadband.

dub45

We should all have problems with companies that lie. Is integrity too much to ask for even for a UPC fanboy????:rolleyes:

hightower1

All I am saying is if you dont agree with an ISP selling an unlimited / FUP product then dont give them your custom.

If I dont like the prices or practices of a shop I certainly wont hand over my hard earned money.

watty

It should be illegal to use the word "Unlimited" or "No Limits" unless you can actually use the connection 24x7 all year at full speed without penalty.

There should be no "up to" except as fine print, the Speed quoted should be the minimum 75% of users will see (average could be misleading as on DSL there could be many on 1Mbps and > 10Mbps if all was ADSL2+). The "up to" should be peak time for users on avearge. Knowing you are "up to" 21Mbps if you have a perfect signal at 3am is pointless. Knowing you on average get 1Mbps at peak time is more realistic.

Blindpew2

They do have the "extreme" package that's not listed anywhere on their website. They only tell you about it when you go over the "unlimited" limit. They use it as a threat. Just tell them that you need the extreme package from day one and stop all the pussyfooting around.

54kroc

dub45 wrote: »

Have you approached UPC about this?

It might be worth getting on to their SME broadband support and telling them exactly what you require.

cros13

hightower1 wrote: »

All I am saying is if you dont agree with an ISP selling an unlimited / FUP product then dont give them your custom.

If I dont like the prices or practices of a shop I certainly wont hand over my hard earned money.

That makes perfect sense in a free market. Problem is that not reality.
In 99% of the country the only choices are ISPs with either capped packages or "unlimited". In 75% of the country the only choice is eircom (or eircom wholesale). I'm moving from one of the few areas where I had a choice to inside the M50 where there is no choice.

watty

hightower1 wrote: »

All I am saying is if you dont agree with an ISP selling an unlimited / FUP product then dont give them your custom.

If I dont like the prices or practices of a shop I certainly wont hand over my hard earned money.

But most people don't know how misleading the adverts are. That's why we have Consumer Association of Ireland, Advertising Standards Authority of Ireland and Comreg. Sadly they seem more inclined to make sure all vendors are doing the same (Level playing field to rip off customers) rather than any interest in protecting consumers.

Karmafaerie

dub45 wrote: »

Surely all customers should be treated equally? Does this now mean that in addtion to UPC being allowed to redefine the English language that the meaning of 'unlimited' also depends on where you are?:rolleyes:

Yeah, that's why I sued the travel agency when it rained during my medeteranian sun holiday a few years back!:rolleyes:

UPC aren't responsible for how many heavy users live in the one area.
What do you want them to do?
Ask customers to choose a house based on their internet usage?!

Karmafaerie

Sponge Bob wrote: »

They record the conversation, you ask for a copy of it if there is a dispute. Not a judge in Ireland will find against you if you ask on that recording "is it unlimited" and the sales monkey says "yes", "are you positive" "yes".

First off, stop with the "Sales Monkey" talk.
It makes you sound extremely pretentious and condescending to be honest.
The fact that you've said it about 5 times in this thread says a lot.
I don't like sales agents myself, but that doesn't mean I have free reign to be abussive towards every person who works in sales!

Secondly, no it won't stand up for anything.
UPC would have to release you from your contract at worst.
Plain and simple.

At worst you'd be paying thousands of euros for UPC to release you're contract and arrange further training for the agent in question.

Sponge Bob wrote:

That is a lottery not a package...but you are correct in saying that limits are enforced very arbitrarily according to the state of the network.

No it's not really.
UPC have no say over how much your neighbours download.
If you happen to live in an area full of heavy users, that's unfortunate, but not UPC's fault.

Sponge Bob wrote:

But always remember that if the recording shows the sales monkey wilfully misled the end user then the contract can easily be voided for misrepresentation .

Yes, exactly, it can be voided.
That's what we're saying.
It can not however be used to force UPC to supply you with a service that they don't offer.

Karmafaerie

cros13 wrote: »

And I can also copy those terms and conditions, amend them as agreed and return by registered post. I am aware of the law in relation to this.

And depending on what you changed they'd have to right to cancel your contract.
What's your point here?

cros13 wrote:

I didn't suggest "tricking" anyone. I'm aware of the law in regards to recording phone calls.

If you tell the agent that you are recording the conversation, then chances are 99% of agents will play the call by the book, even if they would normally lie to customers.
So I fail to see what you hope to gain.

cros13 wrote:

I'm a network engineer. Even given my monthly usage with the contention ratios UPC mention (17:1) there should be no issue unless there is a bandwidth bottleneck further upstream.
Remember that given 30Mbps of bandwidth, 500GB is less than 5% of line capacity. I shouldn't even use my "share" of bandwidth on the local cable loop.
All I'm really doing is rsyncing my home server to work so I'm hardly using any of the more sparse upstream bandwidth.

So you're trying to use your RESEDENTIAL broadband for WORK purposes.
Lots of people do this, but most of them don't complain when they are doing it to such an exent that it taxes the RESEDENTIAL account.

If you want to use it for this purpose, I'd suggest calling UPC's business department, as what you are describing is not normal resedential use, and so not what the package is designed for.

dub45

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Yeah, that's why I sued the travel agency when it rained during my medeteranian sun holiday a few years back!:rolleyes:

UPC aren't responsible for how many heavy users live in the one area.
What do you want them to do?
Ask customers to choose a house based on their internet usage?!

Dear God:rolleyes:

Otherwise apparently intelligent people appear to lose all reason when it comes to defending UPC.

Show me the travel agent that guarantees unlimited sunshine? Or when you use too much of that unlimited sunshine upgrades you involuntarily to a mysterious "package' that has even more sunshine than the previous one but this time you pay even more for????

UPC may offer attractive speeds but in signing up for them it is not necessary to become an unquestioning fanboy who will accept any sort of crap from them including redefining the English language and terms and conditions that they don't abide by themselves.

In accepting crap from one company we are ultimately allowing even more companies to offer crap - look at the variations on 'unlimited' for example once a company was allowed to get away with it initially.

UPC need to be criticised as much as possible when they step out of line - their propensity for dictating to the customer is far too high.

dub45

hightower1 wrote: »

All I am saying is if you dont agree with an ISP selling an unlimited / FUP product then dont give them your custom.

If I dont like the prices or practices of a shop I certainly wont hand over my hard earned money.

You know very well that lousy business practises become commonplace once any business is allowed to get away with them. It is up to consumers to be conscious of lousy business practises and highlight them as much as possible.

Sadly companies only appear to respond to embarrassment these days and thats why highlighting lousy behaviour is important.

Signing up for UPC much as you might love their products does not require suspension of your critical faculties.

Karmafaerie

dub45 wrote: »

Dear God:rolleyes:

Otherwise apparently intelligent people appear to lose all reason when it comes to defending UPC.

Show me the travel agent that guarantees unlimited sunshine? Or when you use too much of that unlimited sunshine upgrades you involuntarily to a mysterious "package' that has even more sunshine than the previous one but this time you pay even more for????

UPC may offer attractive speeds but in signing up for them it is not necessary to become an unquestioning fanboy who will accept any sort of crap from them including redefining the English language and terms and conditions that they don't abide by themselves.

In accepting crap from one company we are ultimately allowing even more companies to offer crap - look at the variations on 'unlimited' for example once a company was allowed to get away with it initially.

UPC need to be criticised as much as possible when they step out of line - their propensity for dictating to the customer is far too high.

I'm sorry, but according to you it's all about the wording.
You're the one who quotes dictionarys at people if they so much as mention not hating UPC!:rolleyes:

According to your (I shudder to say) logic, the holiday I booked was a "Sun" holliday.

Infact the name of the company is Sun Holidays.
Their website has people photos's enjoying the sun.
At no stage does it say we don't control the weather on the website.

And do you now why, cause it reasons that people aren't idiots.

So when UPC says that it's RESEDENTIAL broadband is unlimited with a AUP, then it assumes the same of you.

Not that you will come onto forums copy and pasting from online dictionaries!

UPC, surprize, surprize, have a marketing department.

Companies, accross the world, since the dawn of civilization, advertise the best of things.
A cartoon bear sand a bloody song about it!

If you really can't understand this then you are the kind of person who would sue Sun holidays ifit rained!:rolleyes:

lucernarian

dub45 wrote: »

Dear God:rolleyes:

Otherwise apparently intelligent people appear to lose all reason when it comes to defending UPC.

Show me the travel agent that guarantees unlimited sunshine? Or when you use too much of that unlimited sunshine upgrades you involuntarily to a mysterious "package' that has even more sunshine than the previous one but this time you pay even more for????

UPC may offer attractive speeds but in signing up for them it is not necessary to become an unquestioning fanboy who will accept any sort of crap from them including redefining the English language and terms and conditions that they don't abide by themselves.

In accepting crap from one company we are ultimately allowing even more companies to offer crap - look at the variations on 'unlimited' for example once a company was allowed to get away with it initially.

UPC need to be criticised as much as possible when they step out of line - their propensity for dictating to the customer is far too high.

I fully agree with those sentiments. And I'd also agree with Sponge Bob's view on UPC's CSRs. If UPC and their agents were more honest about what they were trying to sell, then these sorts of critical threads wouldn't exist. And if someone goes through a discusion of terms and conditions which must be verbally agreed to over the phone, while being recorded, how could that not constitute a legal agreement if a customer is told that download allowance is unlimited? A court would easily allow any customer to leave any agreement without prejudice to the customer in such circumstances.

karmafaerie wrote:

So you're trying to use your RESEDENTIAL broadband for WORK purposes.
Lots of people do this, but most of them don't complain when they are doing it to such an exent that it taxes the RESEDENTIAL account.

Syncing a home server to work does not equate to using a residential account for business purposes?! It's quite likely that's for allowing home-based files to be used at work (music and the likes). Which would be more of an issue between the employee and the employer's IT manager...

Karmafaerie

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I fully agree with those sentiments. And I'd also agree with Sponge Bob's view on UPC's CSRs. If UPC and their agents were more honest about what they were trying to sell, then these sorts of critical threads wouldn't exist. And if someone goes through a discusion of terms and conditions which must be verbally agreed to over the phone, while being recorded, how could that not constitute a legal agreement if a customer is told that download allowance is unlimited? A court would easily allow any customer to leave any agreement without prejudice to the customer in such circumstances.

It always amazes me how people don't read their contracts, but then I come in here where people can't even read a thread, and it shows me that it's more common than I thought.

Not one person here is saying that the OP wouldn't be able to leave their contract.
We have all said that over, and over, and over, and over, and over, again.
The OP stated that he would be able to use that call recording to sue UPC for breach of service, as a way to force them to supply him with an unlimeted service.
We are saying no that he wouldn't.

To_be_confirmed wrote:

Syncing a home server to work does not equate to using a residential account for business purposes?! It's quite likely that's for allowing home-based files to be used at work (music and the likes). Which would be more of an issue between the employee and the employer's IT manager...

Yes.
He's uploading 500MB of his home computer to his work computer per month.
Very likely that is.

dub45

Karmafaerie wrote: »

I'm sorry, but according to you it's all about the wording.
You're the one who quotes dictionarys at people if they so much as mention not hating UPC!:rolleyes:

According to your (I shudder to say) logic, the holiday I booked was a "Sun" holliday.

Infact the name of the company is Sun Holidays.
Their website has people photos's enjoying the sun.
At no stage does it say we don't control the weather on the website.

And do you now why, cause it reasons that people aren't idiots.

So when UPC says that it's RESEDENTIAL broadband is unlimited with a AUP, then it assumes the same of you.

Not that you will come onto forums copy and pasting from online dictionaries!

UPC, surprize, surprize, have a marketing department.

Companies, accross the world, since the dawn of civilization, advertise the best of things.
A cartoon bear sand a bloody song about it!

If you really can't understand this then you are the kind of person who would sue Sun holidays ifit rained!:rolleyes:

It is indeed all about wording.

Wording is how we communicate. Words have agreed meanings.

You appear to consider it ok for companies to redefine language to suit themselves and to mislead people.

Having a marketing department does not justify lying.

You unfortunately picked a lousy example for your argument in your holiday example.

I quote dictionaries to remind people of the meaning of words nothing more nothing less.

I dont expect anyone to hate UPC but i do expect even fanboys to be able to discern when their favourite company is misleading people.

So when UPC says that it's RESEDENTIAL broadband is unlimited with a AUP, then it assumes the same of you.

And can I remind you that there are many many instances where UPC quote their BB product as being unlimited without any qualification whatsoever,

http://www.upc.ie/broadband/

lucernarian

Karmafaerie wrote: »

And do you now why, cause it reasons that people aren't idiots.

So when UPC says that it's RESEDENTIAL broadband is unlimited with a AUP, then it assumes the same of you.

Oh that's just clutching at straws there. How is a package holiday and the weather anything to do with T&C abbreviations such as AUPs?! This is quite straightforward, UNLIMITED and AUP are not compatible with each other. UPC are definitely not the only company to make these sort of misleading statements but this defending of them is intolerable.

If customers see that a broadband package is "unlimited", they'll think that's great and won't think about AUPs at all. Even if they do see the Acceptable Usage Policy mentioned in the small print, they will not equate that with a download allowance, no matter what a UPC CSR would like to expect. And of course, some customers have to jump through hoops to even find out what the AUP actually means. UPC's make it clear that their 2 highest packages have "unlimited" usage on their website. This is quite misleading.

Karmafaerie

dub45 wrote: »

You appear to consider it ok for companies to redefine language to suit themselves and to mislead people.

Like a company calling themselves sun holidays when they can't guarantee the sun?
If you think that a company calling themselves Sun holidays, advertisingwhat they called (verbatim) "a holiday in the sun" is not similar to UPC saying unlimited broadband, then you are completely and unequivicably biased.

They advertised a holiday in the sun.
There was no sun.
How is this any different?


(Quick note, I had a great time on the holiday, and had no intention ever of complaining. Just using it as a reference point, seeing as Dub seems to think that companies have to use wording that doesn't give customers the wrong impression).

dub45 wrote: »

Having a marketing department does not justify lying.

You unfortunately picked a lousy example for your argument in your holiday example.

I quote dictionaries to remind people of the meaning of words nothing more nothing less.

I dont expect anyone to hate UPC but i do expect even fanboys to be able to discern when their favourite company is misleading people.

How is it lying?
There are loads of people, many of whom have posted here, that have downloaded hundreds of gigs.
They have an unlimited service.
Unfortunately a lot of people are hindered in this andcan't avail, due to utilization.
Doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

If you actually casred about the wording rather than just hating all things UPC, your little crusade would be about "up to speeds" which effects hundreds of times more customers.
But that's not a UPC issue, so you don't care about it.

In reality you don't care about the wording, it's just a stick that you use to beat UPC.

I'll await your dozens of posts in every single thread that mentions Eircom, about "up to speeds" cause until then you are being biased and are of no interest to me, as I get enough fanboi crap from people in the PS3/360 debates.

Karmafaerie

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Oh that's just clutching at straws there. How is a package holiday and the weather anything to do with T&C abbreviations such as AUPs?! This is quite straightforward, UNLIMITED and AUP are not compatible with each other. UPC are definitely not the only company to make these sort of misleading statements but this defending of them is intolerable.

If customers see that a broadband package is "unlimited", they'll think that's great and won't think about AUPs at all. Even if they do see the Acceptable Usage Policy mentioned in the small print, they will not equate that with a download allowance, no matter what a UPC CSR would like to expect. And of course, some customers have to jump through hoops to even find out what the AUP actually means. UPC's make it clear that their 2 highest packages have "unlimited" usage on their website. This is quite misleading.

No, that's you with a double standard my friend.
You expect better standards from UPC than you do from the Travel agent.

For no reason whatsoever.

All companies should be held to the same standard.

lucernarian

karmafaerie wrote:

Not one person here is saying that the OP wouldn't be able to leave their contract.
We have all said that over, and over, and over, and over, and over, again.
The OP stated that he would be able to use that call recording to sue UPC for breach of service, as a way to force them to supply him with an unlimeted service.
We are saying no that he wouldn't.

And I agree with that, of course UPC can't be sued for not offering a service in the first instance but a contract can be easily voided without penalty. But that's just it, Sponge Bob wasn't saying any different either... SB made the point that any judge would void a contract if a verbal and recorded promise to offer something in exchange for money was voided. Perhaps you should look back over some of those posts to clarify the situation.

lucernarian

Karmafaerie wrote: »

No, that's you with a double standard my friend.
You expect better standards from UPC than you do from the Travel agent.

For no reason whatsoever.

All companies should be held to the same standard.

What nonsense. No matter how you spin it, if someone signs up to an unlimited usage internet connection, and then are billed for downloading over 250GB in a month, then that service is NOT unlimited!! It really is that simple:)

dub45

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Oh that's just clutching at straws there. How is a package holiday and the weather anything to do with T&C abbreviations such as AUPs?! This is quite straightforward, UNLIMITED and AUP are not compatible with each other. UPC are definitely not the only company to make these sort of misleading statements but this defending of them is intolerable.

If customers see that a broadband package is "unlimited", they'll think that's great and won't think about AUPs at all. Even if they do see the Acceptable Usage Policy mentioned in the small print, they will not equate that with a download allowance, no matter what a UPC CSR would like to expect. And of course, some customers have to jump through hoops to even find out what the AUP actually means. UPC's make it clear that their 2 highest packages have "unlimited" usage on their website. This is quite misleading.

Indeed!

http://www.askcomreg.ie/home/my_service_provider_has_advertised_an_%22unlimited_package%22___what_does_this_mean_for_me.5.154.LE.asp

ComReg would like to advise consumers that any provision of a contract which sets usage thresholds, or describes what constitutes ‘fair’ or ‘acceptable’ use, should be clear and unambiguous, particularly where the service is described as being ‘unlimited’.

Usage thresholds or limits should be clearly set out, as should the manner in which they may be updated or amended.

ComReg expects each service provider to implement a clear, transparent and policy for dealing with customer usage above any set thresholds. The policy should set out the rules for contract termination, including penalties, the charges that shall apply for any use above the threshold/limit, and the policy regarding migration of the customer to other packages, if applicable.

dub45

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Like a company calling themselves sun holidays when they can't guarantee the sun?
If you think that a company calling themselves Sun holidays, advertisingwhat they called (verbatim) "a holiday in the sun" is not similar to UPC saying unlimited broadband, then you are completely and unequivicably biased.

They advertised a holiday in the sun.
There was no sun.
How is this any different?


(Quick note, I had a great time on the holiday, and had no intention ever of complaining. Just using it as a reference point, seeing as Dub seems to think that companies have to use wording that doesn't give customers the wrong impression).

At this stage it really is beginning to sound as if you got far far too much sun:rolleyes:

Jonathan

cros13 wrote: »

I'm a network engineer. Even given my monthly usage with the contention ratios UPC mention (17:1) there should be no issue unless there is a bandwidth bottleneck further upstream.
Remember that given 30Mbps of bandwidth, 500GB is less than 5% of line capacity. I shouldn't even use my "share" of bandwidth on the local cable loop.
All I'm really doing is rsyncing my home server to work so I'm hardly using any of the more sparse upstream bandwidth.

If your company is Irish, it quite possible that they or their ISP peer at INEX. If that is the case, UPC might turn a blind eye if they don't have to pay for the bandwidth.

Mountjoy Mugger

Interest waning...can we go back OT?


Advice was offered earlier to the OP to check out the SME options available. Not a bad idea, imo. No mention of a FUP on the products offered.