Time to do away with the provincial championships?

Ian_K

So none of the remaining four teams in championship '10 reached their respective provincial finals promting the question why persist with them at all?
Surely a 32 team FIFA world cup shtyle competition would be better for all involved, with 8 groups of 4 seeded based on the national league (giving teams more to play for here also), this also guarentees all teams at least 3 championship games

aDeener

knew well it was only a matter of time before this was brought up......

BizzyLizzie

aDeener wrote: »

knew well it was only a matter of time before this was brought up......

The man does have a point though in fairness!

popebenny16

well, this is going to run and run, sure it wasnt a problem when it was only dublin losing out because of it. anyway, wont change for at least three years.

Carcharodon

I don't think it will ever be really plausible considering the history involved with provincial titles and there is still some weight given to winning them despite the introduction of the qualifiers.

There will always be flaws in a system and things like you mention will happen but some people may argue, that is the beauty of the system.

JMSE

How about turning the league into 4 provincial competitions where the champions get crowned in early spring, people wouldnt have to travel too far. Then such a 32 county competition as was said above gets underway at the end of May. I cant see the provincial cups just being abandoned.

johnmcdnl

I can see the advantages for this system but think about all the history an tradition that will be thrown away with the provinces.. old rivalries, going to Clones for us Ulster folk...

I can see there's flaws in the current system but 8 groups format is going to just let the best teams fly through if their seeded... if this proposal was ever brough forward the national league shouldn't be used as a bench mark - different competition.. simple as that

how many teams have terrible leagues and then shine in the championship - and visa versa...

if this ever comes to play it has to be random groups to keep a bit of the championship winner takes all mentality to remain.... imagine the group of death scenarios that could be thrown up compared to what seeded groups would throw up...

it's mean there'd never be a chance for the Roscommon's or Down's or Fermanagh's that get a run every few years and do something to make their counties proud.. This system would only benefit the stronger counties and the weaker counties would never get the "luck of the draw" if seeded groups are implemented

gally74

knew this would come up,

the league is useless, it prolongs the season for all teams involved,

drop the league, play off the prov finals earlier, to allow teams time to comeback right for the all ireland,

for the sligo's, monaghan's, louths etc. the prov finals are hugh

Ian_K

JMSE wrote: »

How about turning the league into 4 provincial competitions where the champions get crowned in early spring, people wouldnt have to travel too far. Then such a 32 county competition as was said above gets underway at the end of May. I cant see the provincial cups just being abandoned.

I like this a lot actually

Mental_Legend

gally74 wrote: »

knew this would come up,

the league is useless, it prolongs the season for all teams involved,

drop the league, play off the prov finals earlier, to allow teams time to comeback right for the all ireland,

for the sligo's, monaghan's, louths etc. the prov finals are hugh

Without the league, then a handful of teams could be playing 3 games a year if they lose them: First round of the provincial championship, first round of qualifiers and the first round of the secondary provincial cup (Eg. O' Byrne Cup in Leinster).

gally74

the league is a joke, mayo in a final, how good were they? ros, div 4 team win connacht, tyrone finished bottom of div 1 but won ulster,

I just think the season is too long, attendances are poor, and its a very wet time of the year for football or hurling,

the mess this year was unfair to all prov finalists, be they winners or losers,

mon and sligo , 6 days to recover, while kerry and meath had loads of weeks off,

unknown13

It would make more sense to do a Round Robin for the Provincial System instead of getting rid of it.

liammur

standard of play is very very low imo. I;d have to be paid to go to some of the matches

unknown13

liammur wrote: »

standard of play is very very low imo. I;d have to be paid to go to some of the matches

Connacht was dreadful this year.

liammur

yep, mayo beat by longford who were quickly trounced by who even knows
galway beaten by a poor wexford team that were thrashed by cork who were operating in 2nd gear
sligo demolished by down!
leitrim, god help us

DonkeyPokerTour

Ian_K wrote: »

So none of the remaining four teams in championship '10 reached their respective provincial finals promting the question why persist with them at all?
Surely a 32 team FIFA world cup shtyle competition would be better for all involved, with 8 groups of 4 seeded based on the national league (giving teams more to play for here also), this also guarentees all teams at least 3 championship games

It really favors the stronger county's! People said the backdoor was great for weaker county's, and in some ways it is in terms of we get two games at least in a year, but its a get out of jail free card for any of the Stronger County's who have an off day and often times it just means that the weaker countys get their a$$ handed to them twice in a year instead of once.

Realistically the best chance for a weaker county to win anything is in straight Knockout, get a favorable draw against other weak countys, get through to the semi's have a good day and beat a decent side and then in a final anything can happen.

Personally I'd rather see it go back to a true knockout competition, but it'll never happen as the GAA would lose out on too much revenue! Like effectively those two Quarterfinal days were "freebies" to the GAA as in a straight knockout system they'd only get the final, and those two Quarterfinal days probably generated 1-5mill for the GAA.

popebenny16

the backdoor has never ever favoured a weaker county, it just gives the strong ones a chance to come back. even worse in the hurling.

Pegasusbridge

I think we should have a division 1 and division 2 All-ireland. In no county in Ireland would a club with the population equivalent of Leitrim be expected to compete against a club with the population of Dublin UNLESS they had qualified for a high grade by winning other competitions. Scrap the league and play some form of a provinical competition ideally in a round robin format. Then in the summer have two championships with both containing two groups where teams are guaranteed 5 or so games with top 2 making the semi-finals. That way all those players that train all year get a decent amount of game time. I'm aware that it could impact on club matches but surely a proper calender could be worked out.

aDeener

liammur wrote: »

standard of play is very very low imo. I;d have to be paid to go to some of the matches

will you ever just piss off. :rolleyes: all your posts in here have just criticised gaelic games with no back up for what you say.
this years championship has been the best in years.

the 2 cork kerry matches, kerry-limerick, sligo-ros, kildare-louth, to name but a few. i bet you don't even watch gaa just trot out some typical sound bite that gobshites like to latch onto

aDeener

liammur wrote: »

yep, mayo beat by longford who were quickly trounced by who even knows
galway beaten by a poor wexford team that were thrashed by cork who were operating in 2nd gear
sligo demolished by down!
leitrim, god help us

you certainly dont, :rolleyes: they lost to down by 4 points who subsequently de-throned the kingdom by 6.

cork beat wexford by 7 points. since when is that a trashing? you know nothing, go back to the aviva

Diabhal Beag

I'd love to see them do a trial-run some-time but it would be harder for the smaller counties to do well. They are more likely to win a Provincial title than an All-Ireland title.

How would we implement a back-door system. The one we have now improves the smaller counties.

aDeener

Diabhal Beag wrote: »

I'd love to see them do a trial-run some-time but it would be harder for the smaller counties to do well. They are more likely to win a Provincial title than an All-Ireland title.

How would we implement a back-door system. The one we have now improves the smaller counties.

the only way a traditional weaker county could ever make the breakthrough for AI success would be the old format - straight knock out. a clare '92, leitrim '94, westmeath '04 and cavan '97 all happening in the one year

RealityCheck

aDeener wrote: »

the only way a traditional weaker county could ever make the breakthrough for AI success would be the old format - straight knock out. a clare '92, leitrim '94, westmeath '04 and cavan '97 all happening in the one year

I agree, back to the old traditional system. The only way possible that both Provincial and All Ireland titles are not devalued. The changes were only motivated by money.

Btw Cavan would hardly be regarded as a traditional weaker county?

Syferus

unknown13 wrote: »

Connacht was dreadful this year.

It's 'dreadful' every year whne people talk about it, yet when someone actually watches a Connacht match they invariably are confounded by the spectacle of teams that don't completely blanket their half-forwards over their half-backs in some weird attempt at gang raping pocession off the opposition!

aDeener

RealityCheck wrote: »

I agree, back to the old traditional system. The only way possible that both Provincial and All Ireland titles are not devalued. The changes were only motivated by money.

Btw Cavan would hardly be regarded as a traditional weaker county?

yes sorry my mistake, traditionally they have been very strong. most successful ulster county in fact but even still if those 4 were the all ireland semi finalists - given the length of time it has been since cavan won an AI, it would be pretty special

RealityCheck

aDeener wrote: »

yes sorry my mistake, traditionally they have been very strong. most successful ulster county in fact but even still if those 4 were the all ireland semi finalists - given the length of time it has been since cavan won an AI, it would be pretty special

Actually having looked it up there, 97 was Cavans first Ulster win in 28 years, so it was special to a degree.

K-9

popebenny16 wrote: »

well, this is going to run and run, sure it wasnt a problem when it was only dublin losing out because of it. anyway, wont change for at least three years.

Mickey Harte and Joe Kernan brought it up plenty of times! Jaysus!

Tribune did a piece on the 10 years of qualifiers:

When Sunday Comes

Down became the 19th county to reach the Q/F's, not bad and definitely a success by that statistic. None of the beaten Provincial finalists in the last 8 highlights a consistent problem.

The Qualifier system needs tweaking.

K-9

aDeener wrote: »

the only way a traditional weaker county could ever make the breakthrough for AI success would be the old format - straight knock out. a clare '92, leitrim '94, westmeath '04 and cavan '97 all happening in the one year

Yes, but 3 of those didn't get past the Semis and I don't think Westmeath would have won an AI under the old one.

If you look at the list of teams getting to Q/F's, Fermanagh, Donegal, Derry, Meath and Kildare have benefited majorly so, Westmeath, Roscommon, Sligo, Wexford and Monaghan have all benefited too.

Even Wicklow and Limerick got a few wins and Tipperary got to Croke Park.

The negative is Kerry and Tyrone probably won more AI's than they would have, with probably Armagh and Cork losing out.

popebenny16

K-9 wrote: »

Mickey Harte and Joe Kernan brought it up plenty of times! Jaysus!

but they dont post here (anymore)!!

no my point is that, the odd piece by Martin Breheny aside, it has never been a massive talking point, and, sure enough, if one or two winners went out this weekend it may not have been. so why is this suddenly a massive injustice in the views of the masses today when it wasnt last year or the year before?? If one team loses out because of it or four makes no difference, should it?

K-9

popebenny16 wrote: »

but they dont post here (anymore)!!

no my point is that, the odd piece by Martin Breheny aside, it has never been a massive talking point, and, sure enough, if one or two winners went out this weekend it may not have been. so why is this suddenly a massive injustice in the views of the masses today when it wasnt last year or the year before?? If one team loses out because of it or four makes no difference, should it?

But AFAIK, never before have all 4 provincial winners never reached the Semis as well as, all 4 losing provincial finalists never getting to the Quarters, so it stands out more.

Threads on reforming the system are guaranteed here, every season. Dublin persecution complex tbh.

popebenny16

K-9 wrote: »

Threads on reforming the system are guaranteed here, every season. Dublin persecution complex tbh.

excuse me!!! we have earned our persecution complex .

the flipside is that all the provincial finalists are out. there is a solution to this silliness anyway, which is that you do away with quarter finals altogether and rejig the qualifier system to end up with the semi finals and that way the provincial champions can have the ability to lose one match as well (and play one of the winners of the round in which they lose in).

K-9

popebenny16 wrote: »

excuse me!!! we have earned our persecution complex .

the flipside is that all the provincial finalists are out. there is a solution to this silliness anyway, which is that you do away with quarter finals altogether and rejig the qualifier system to end up with the semi finals and that way the provincial champions can have the ability to lose one match as well (and play one of the winners of the round in which they lose in).

Personally, I think give the provincial losers another week.

On your idea, make the last 12, 4 groups of 3?

Was thinking 2 groups of 6 or 3 groups of 4, but that causes fixture problems too.

I would mention my personal bugbear, what stage you enter the Qualifiers should be determined by games played. Treating the losers of a Connacht/Munster Semi the same as a loser of a Leinster/Ulster Semi is stupidity.

gally74

i think the qualifers could work, but the gaa would have to drop TV coverage etc. for it,

play off all prov's close together, with the prov finals finishing on the same weekend, 2 on sat, 2 on sun,

then the following weekend, the losers play the qualifers, then 1 more week later, the QF's take place,

momentum is everything in GAA, were a very small country in ways, it makes no sense that the conn championship should finish after leinster?

if the season was shorter i think the turnarounds would be ok.

starlit

I'd say tis how all the teams will want to go the back door now! seeing as the current teams strengthen as they play each game as they go along in the qualifiers before reaching the championships! amazing to see that all the provincial champs have been knocked out at the first hurdle of championships after the qualifiers! Very weird occurrance! may the best team win the all ireland! its anybodys guess is as good as mine - I don't know as anything is possible!

Think they could introduce a new system where every team gets to go the back door way i.e. the provincial teams do so as well as those that go through the qualifiers to see which teams can win out.

johnmcdnl

RealityCheck wrote: »

I agree, back to the old traditional system. The only way possible that both Provincial and All Ireland titles are not devalued. The changes were only motivated by money.

Btw Cavan would hardly be regarded as a traditional weaker county?

we've won ulster once in 41 years.... the cavan of old was great - not anymore

popebenny16

the crux of the problem is the entire GAA master fixtures list that pops out in October each year for the following year.

In any sane system you would end up with the four provincial football finals on the same weekend (you can have two sat and two sun to keep the telly happy). Likewise the semi-finals. Instead we have this system when they have all their own weekend. This is what is leading to the stupidity of some champions having to wait up to seven weeks for the quarter finals and others only two or three.

If the fixures dictated that the provincial finals were all held three weeks before the AI quarters, and that the provinces worked for that by holding their rounds at a two week gap backwards relative to it then you could have a proper system.

Why should, say, Kerry, have to hang around waiting for Leinster and Ulster to get finished before the quarters start?

The qualifier system just adds to the stupidity - they should be straight knock out, no replays.

aDeener

popebenny16 wrote: »

the crux of the problem is the entire GAA master fixtures list that pops out in October each year for the following year.

In any sane system you would end up with the four provincial football finals on the same weekend (you can have two sat and two sun to keep the telly happy). Likewise the semi-finals. Instead we have this system when they have all their own weekend. This is what is leading to the stupidity of some champions having to wait up to seven weeks for the quarter finals and others only two or three.

If the fixures dictated that the provincial finals were all held three weeks before the AI quarters, and that the provinces worked for that by holding their rounds at a two week gap backwards relative to it then you could have a proper system.

Why should, say, Kerry, have to hang around waiting for Leinster and Ulster to get finished before the quarters start?

The qualifier system just adds to the stupidity - they should be straight knock out, no replays.

what do you do with a draw after extra time? players cannot go on playing forever. and please do not say penalty shoot out, we should try and maintain some form of uniqueness in our game

DH2K9

I did a thread ages ago about getting rid of the provincial system but everybody is just overreacting to four results. Next year all four provincial winners could be in the semi.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055958434

lukin

I'm sure a lot of Cork football supporters (myself included) find it amusing that there are now calls to abolish the provincial championships after we have had all our Munster victories over Kerry in the last eight years rendered meaningless after being beaten by them later on in the All-Ireland.
I know it's our own fault if we couldn't beat them in Croker but now other counties are experiencing some of the frustration we have had to endure in recent years.
All I can say to Kerry, Tyrone and Meath is "Welcome to our world"

hisholinessnb

Slightly ironic that the hullaballo is going on the one year Dublin does well through the back door at the expense of provincial champions!

It aint broke, don't fix it.

popebenny16

aDeener wrote: »

what do you do with a draw after extra time? players cannot go on playing forever. and please do not say penalty shoot out, we should try and maintain some form of uniqueness in our game

what is wrong with that idea of a shoot out anyway? we have yellow and red cards, two yellows = a red, injury time, all borrowed than the game that cannot be mentioned. Never mind the fact that we have a penalty, a penalty spot, and an area in which you cannot encroach that is "D" shaped :rolleyes:

theverminator5

leave it the way it is

Syferus

popebenny16 wrote: »

the crux of the problem is the entire GAA master fixtures list that pops out in October each year for the following year.

In any sane system you would end up with the four provincial football finals on the same weekend (you can have two sat and two sun to keep the telly happy). Likewise the semi-finals. Instead we have this system when they have all their own weekend. This is what is leading to the stupidity of some champions having to wait up to seven weeks for the quarter finals and others only two or three.

If the fixures dictated that the provincial finals were all held three weeks before the AI quarters, and that the provinces worked for that by holding their rounds at a two week gap backwards relative to it then you could have a proper system.

Why should, say, Kerry, have to hang around waiting for Leinster and Ulster to get finished before the quarters start?

The qualifier system just adds to the stupidity - they should be straight knock out, no replays.

I'd echo pretty much entirely what you said. The first stop in reforming the championship needs to be fixing the chaotic and nonsensical fixtures list and any talk of changing the provincial system will remain the exclusive remit of bar stool experts until such time as there's coherency in the schedule. You can't build a new house if the foundation is rotten.

bigbadbear

I think next year fixture will be better. Everyone realised this year that the fixture list was just all over the shop.

For anyone who says the provincial title is meaningless why don't you try tell that to a Louth fan who had their Leinster crown stolen from them in the last minute. I was screaming for Louth that day because it would have meant the world to all them if they had won.

Magi11

The losing 16 teams in the first round playoff on a knock out basis and the county that emerges from that gets a Quarter Final spot. The losing Provincial semi finalists (8) do likewise and 1 county gets a Quarter Final place. The losing Provincial Finalists do likewise and the 2 winners get Quarter Final places. The other 4 Quarter Final places go to the Provincial Champions. The benefits are that it stops the anomaly of having a team that has lost their last match play a team that has won the last one.

Agus

http://www.hoganstand.com/kerry/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=133655

Former GAA president Sean Kelly is proposing that the provincial and All-Ireland football championships be run as separate competitions.

His suggestion follows the failure of all eight provincial finalists to make the All-Ireland semi-finals for the first time since the All-Ireland qualifiers were introduced in 2001.

Writing in the Irish Examiner, Kelly said: "If we want fairness and a system that works, and if we want to help our clubs, there is one obvious solution. Run the provincial championships as they are run at present, but run the All-Ireland series as a separate competition on an open draw basis concurrently.

"Paraic Duffy rightly said it is a separate competition already - separate but not apart from the provincial series. It is time to make the Sam Maguire Cup both separate and apart but run concurrently with the provincial campaign.

"Here's how it would work. Firstly, make your draw for each provincial championship as heretofore and run them off as normal with the fact that they would no longer be linked to the All-Ireland series giving the provincial councils some flexibility regarding dates. Also, make a separate open draw for the All-Ireland; 32 is the perfect number of counties and it's time we used such a natural resource.

"New York or London could be given the option of playing a preliminary round or just opting for a shot at the provincials."